Smithing

[Yepesnopes]

I ask here for a bit of Middle Earth /Beleriand lore.

Are not (were not) Noldo elves one of the best, if not the best smiths? Even surpassing dwarves? or are they at least not as skilled as dwarves?

Based upon this impression, I am considering allowing High Elves of Rivendell with the Artificier of Eregion virtue to be able to take as well the Dwarven-Smith undertaking.

What do you think?

[Falenthal]

Yesterday I was taking a look at the Artificier of Eregion Virtue and its related Undertaking, and at the Dwarven-smithing Undertaking.

I think it fits that not every Noldor is a former smith from Eregion, therefore it is ok that you have to first take the Virtue. Arwen, Elladan, Glorfindel, even Elrond... I don't see them as smithers that could forge an enchanted sword. On the other hand, every Dwarf knows how to craft and has lots of forges available to him, so that there's no need for a Virtue, just the skill.

Both Undertakings look very similar: gather Craftmanship points by testing your Craft skill, spending Experience or gaining Shadow.

But I don't know why there should be different characteristics for both Undertakings: the amount of Craftmanship points needed, the amount of Experience needed to gain 1 point of Craftmanship, the nature of the Shadow (temporary vs. permanent). I'm sure it fits the numbers, but could'nt there be a uniform way of Crafting Quality or Enchanted items? Then each culture could have its own particularities on how to approach the work, but the basic rules could be the same for everyone. Every culture should be able to craft quality items. Maybe only Dwarves and Elves could have available a Virtue that allows to use the Smithing rules to also craft items with Enchanted qualities.

Right now, with the rules as they are, I wouldn't risk allowing a High Elf to use the Dwarven-smithing rules to craft an Enchanted item. Not because it doesn't make sense thematically. In fact, as someone else said in another thread about the Erebor supplement (Kullervo?), it makes MORE sense that Elves still know how to enchant objects, and dwarves only manage to craft high qualities. But the rules are now too tight designed for each culture's characteristics and stats. My two cents on that topic.

[Rich H]

Certainly feels like there could be some mileage in taking the RAW and drawing out a base mechanic/process and then hanging cultural ways of smithing and artificing off of it.

[atgxtg]

There might be a uniform way. The differences between the two smithing rules could be because the end results are different. Elven-smithing is less powerful, more like going to the market pool (a semi-temporary bonus), or as a lesser enchantment (counts as magic to hit things but no actual magical qualities). Dwarf-smithing imbues the item with an enchanted quality. So that might be why Dwarven-smithing is more costly in terms of TN, experience, time and shadow points.

Perhaps an Elf Artificer would be under similar rules if her were to try an imbue an item with an enchanted quality? Or a Dwarf might need an artificer type virtue to enhance items or perform a minor enchantment?

[Falenthal]

Perhaps an Elf Artificer would be under similar rules if her were to try an imbue an item with an enchanted quality? Or a Dwarf might need an artificer type virtue to enhance items or perform a minor enchantment?

earlier
That's what I was pointing at: an Elf Artificier wouldn't probably be able to go driven? Would he be able to do more than one enchanted object in his life? Could a dwarf go driven to finish a quality weapon earlier? How much would it cost in terms of Craftmanship points, XPs and Shadow points for a High Elf to give an Enchanted Quality?

All this could be a single rule (Smithing Qualities and Enchanted Qualities) that elves, dwarves and even humans could choose from.

[atgxtg]

Yeah, And it might be that Elves might have more than one "lifetime" as far as smithing goes. Maybe whatever vitality that gets drained from a smith while imbuing an enchanted quality recovers in a few hundred years. But, by then, most people have died from old age.

But.. I think it's more likely that the PC Noldo are getting the preliminary gateway virtue for Elvish Smithing and that there are probably more advanced Virtues that the older smiths know.

I could see Enchanted Qaulites, Ringmaking, and Craft Wonderous Item all as "Advanced" Virtues, each with it's own "ability tree" that require experience points to learn.

[Glorelendil]

I would also suggest that the Noldor have to actually be "smiths" to have competence at such things, whereas essentially all Dwarves know something of metalwork. So I like that Dwarven Smithing is accessible to any Dwarf with sufficient ranks in Craft, but a similar "lifetime masterwork" ability for Noldor should still be restricted to somebody with the virtue.

[atgxtg]

I would also suggest that the Noldor have to actually be "smiths" to have competence at such things, whereas essentially all Dwarves know something of metalwork. So I like that Dwarven Smithing is accessible to any Dwarf with sufficient ranks in Craft, but a similar "lifetime masterwork" ability for Noldor should still be restricted to somebody with the virtue.

it would certainly make sense, but the RAW doesn't seem to require it. Of course the virtues isn't of much use to someone without Craft skill in the first place, so it's probably a moot point.

BTW, I started messing around with some Enchantment virtues and was thinking that:

1)The TN for placing blessings and enchanted qualities on an item, and/or the number of craftsmanship points required increase for the second and third quality. That would make a good craft skill necessary to succeed in the crafting.

2)Rolling an eye during the subsequent enchantments could actually mess with the previously laid enchantment. Maybe the item gets cursed?

3) I think that a good rule of thumb to determine if shadow points gained are temporary or permanent would depend on if the bonus gained is temporary (like weapon enhancement bonuses) or permanent (like a quality).

4) I'm thinking that for Ring-making, each ability learned (lesser rings, major rings, etc.) comes with a permanent point of shadow, since Ringmaking originated from Sauron. So the ability is somewhat tainted.

5) The elves probably have some sort in Wisdom requirement for teaching any of the greater enchanting virtues. The probably wouldn't want any of the "younger generation" to make the same mistakes the elders did with the rings of power.

[Kullervo]

Right now, with the rules as they are, I wouldn't risk allowing a High Elf to use the Dwarven-smithing rules to craft an Enchanted item. Not because it doesn't make sense thematically. In fact, as someone else said in another thread about the Erebor supplement (Kullervo?), it makes MORE sense that Elves still know how to enchant objects, and dwarves only manage to craft high qualities. But the rules are now too tight designed for each culture's characteristics and stats. My two cents on that topic.

/waves

Yep, I remember that conversation. My two cents: The description of Heir of Gondolin may provide some insight as to why the book doesnt allow the Noldor to do this:

A long time ago your kin dwelt in Beleriand, where they were smiths of great renown. They laboured long in their proud cities, hidden from the world by a veil of secrecy, but this didn’t save them from their dark fate, and now those lands are lost under the Sea, along with the great works of your fathers. Your hands cannot dare to replicate the beauty of that bygone age, but this knowledge does not prevent you from trying.

So, the way I understand that is: They know exactly how to do what the dwarves do, and some of the greatest works bear both Dwarven and Elven craftsmanship at once (Anduril/Narsil, among a few others mentioned in book), but they do not -want- to, probably because of what happened in the past, or due to the waning of the world. Dwarves, on the other hand, seem to yearn for the past, so they try as best they can, and as a result, their craft is more pricy.

[Glorelendil]

Good point. Noldor might not want to risk becoming Driven.