Economic System

[Bocephas]

Comments and criticisms welcome.

*** Updated with Table of Contents ***

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v1zjlerjqzzfm ... s.pdf?dl=0

[Rich H]

I can see that a lot of work has gone into this and the creator should take credit for that but this is simply far too detailed and crunchy for my tastes - it just seems completely unnecessary and offering little value for the TOR player and LM alike; and I admit to only scanning the content as it would be of no use to me. Walls of tables don't do it for me any more, I'm afraid, although do think this would look at home in MERP. I think TOR's lighter touch approach is a far better starting point to develop than ventures such as this. Sorry I can't provide a more constructive analysis/feedback.

[Terisonen]

It made me thinking of Harn Manor, by Columbia Games.

[Otaku-sempai]

Sorry, I must agree with Rich. This is far too cumbersome and complex to be of any use to TOR or even AiMe. Not to mention that it reads as dry as the deserts of Harad.

[Robin Smallburrow]

I can see that a lot of effort has gone into this, so well done!

Constructive comments (hopefully):

1. Will certainly use this as a reference tool if need be, I can see where the ship information can be useful, for example.
2. May I ask where you got your Tolkien information from - I ask as I provided some information on Trade etc. in my Fan Supplement (see link in my sig).
3. I think you should have split this work up into 'General Fantasy' and 'Middle-earth specific' - this would be more useful IMHO, although perhaps too much work?? I actually started something like this, but then I realised that what PC's are only interested in is stuff that impacts on their adventuring - travel and inn costs, Holding rules etc....

Robin S.

[Bocephas]

I know it's not for everyone, and probably is a little boring, but my goal in creating this was to provide a consistent framework to answer questions that have always plagued me like, "What does a 6 gold/year Martial Wealth Level actually provide for, in family, servants, soldiers, horses, and spare coin?" and "How many armed men can I expect to find within a hex given the culture?" It certainly isn't necessary to the game, but may provide a layer of detail for those interested.

[Bocephas]

I have been working on this, off and on, for over 3 years, so I am sure the fan made materials have had an influence (such as Richard's excellent Guide to Dale).

Robin, which part of your Fan Supplement contains trade details (not sure I caught that in the 400+ pages).

As for the Tolkien material, I looked at the Other Minds material on demographics, but my numbers are different given what my system allows the land to support in men/horses. I started at the lowest level (how much food can an acre produce based on historical data) and worked up from there. Thus, my populations are a little lower than what Other Minds gives.

As for the trade material (see Merchant Hides and Tolkien Populations in my system), this was based on historic numbers of how much cargo Northern European ships could carry, how much surplus the food producers would have to trade with (based on my production numbers), and the value of goods that would be moving through Laketown given the (my) population of the Bardings, Dwarves, and Wood Elves.

[Otaku-sempai]

I would note (and I apologize if this was addressed and I missed it) that Dwarves would not have put much stock in land ownership, relying on trade with other cultures/communities for such necessities as food, fabrics and livestock. Of course that could not have been completely true, especially in the cases of more isolated dwarven communities. Do we suppose that Dwarves east of the Iron Hills maintained trade relations with nearby Easterling cultures? That does seem likely to me.

We know that such Rhûnnic Dwarf-folks persisted at least through the War of the Dwarves and Orcs (TA 2793-2799), and we have no reason to believe that they died out by the end of the Third Age.

[Vuriche]

I know it's not for everyone, and probably is a little boring, but my goal in creating this was to provide a consistent framework to answer questions that have always plagued me like, "What does a 6 gold/year Martial Wealth Level actually provide for, in family, servants, soldiers, horses, and spare coin?" and "How many armed men can I expect to find within a hex given the culture?" It certainly isn't necessary to the game, but may provide a layer of detail for those interested.

Exactly this. While I do agree with the sentiment that by and large, I certainly do not find detailed charts such as this all too enticing. In planning and writing for my own campaign in Wilderland, I've recently begun asking just the kinds of questions about population sizes/armed forces/trade goods, etc, that these charts might at least in part help to answer.

So, many thanks for the herculean endeavor this certainly must have entailed!

[Bocephas]

Thank you Vuriche, it did take a lot of time and thought.

As for Dwarves, that is a very difficult culture to model. It's easy to think that Dwarves just mine precious metals and craft things, and trade this stuff for every ounce of food that goes in their mouths. I don't think this is a viable model for cultural survival, and seems a little too fantastic to me.

In my system, dwarves produce/gather about 75% of their caloric intake (45 pennies of each 60-penny support unit). This includes dwarven ale brewed from lichen found in underground caverns, dwarven bread made from wild mountain rye (gathered not grown), meat/cheese produced from herds of mountain sheep and goats, and tree nuts and berries gathered from the mountain-side. Note, none of this requires traditional agriculture. The other 25% of their caloric intake comes from trading the precious metals that they mine (15 pennies per support unit) with food-producing cultures (Bardings). Thus, dwarves do depend on trade for a good portion of their food, just not all of it.

In my system, if dwarves are deprived of trade, they will not starve. But, their standard of living will be significantly diminished. The "tenant" dwarves will have to consume much more of their produce, leaving much less surplus for "rent/taxes" to support the "military/ruling class". One way to model this is to say that dwarves deprived of trade are reduced in wealth level from Rich to Martial.

In my system, dwarves are not "landholders" in the traditional sense of holding acres of farmland. Instead, their "hides" consist of mining interests, ale brewing operations, herds of mountain sheep/goats, rights to gather mountain rye/nuts/berries from lush mountain vales, etc. I have assigned these "hides" an arbitrary size of 500 acres of mountain terrain. These hides provide both food and precious metals to the "holders" of these hides in the form of rent and taxes.

My 75%/25% division between self produced food vs food purchased through trade is again, completely arbitrary. But, in my opinion, dwarves need to produce something so that they are not completely dependent on trade to eat. Maybe others would prefer a 50/50 split. It all depends on whether you want them to starve if they are deprived of trade.