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> 'missing' Abilities From The Books
frodolives
Posted: Aug 14 2011, 11:42 PM
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TOR does a terrific job of capturing its subject matter, but there are a couple of issues relating to 'missing' abilities from the books:

- in LOTR, Elves seem to leave virtually no footprints on grass and can even walk on snow. The game uses a quote to this effect, but doesn't actually offer it as an elven quality or a virtue.
- Elves don't appear to suffer fatigue from physical exertion (witness Legolas in the three hunters, where he is always the first to rise and the only one to suffer no weariness from the chase). Yet in TOR, elves don't even start with a point in Travel, making them a race very likely to get tired during extended journeys.
- Sauron was not able to corrupt the dwarves, but TOR dwarves generally have among the lowest Heart scores of the six cultures. Heart is the attribute that may be invoked in resisting the Shadow. In some ways this makes dwarves one of the weaker cultures when trying to resist the shadow.
- Elves do not suffer from disease, but no mention of this in TOR.

Thoughts? Any other 'missing' cultural elements from the books? How would you handle the examples given above?
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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 12:07 AM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 15 2011, 03:42 AM)
- Elves don't appear to suffer fatigue from physical exertion (witness Legolas in the three hunters, where he is always the first to rise and the only one to suffer no weariness from the chase). Yet in TOR, elves don't even start with a point in Travel, making them a race very likely to get tired during extended journeys.

Doesn't Elvish Dreams cover that somewhat? OK their Fatigue will grow but they more quickly recover Endurance loss.

Elvish Dreams
“...he could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.”
You have learnt to recover from your exertions while engaging in a repetitive task, like walking, or rowing in a boat. At the end of a day of activity, you recover a number of Endurance points equal to your Wisdom rank. If you then take a prolonged rest, you recover normally.


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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 12:10 AM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 15 2011, 03:42 AM)
- Sauron was not able to corrupt the dwarves, but TOR dwarves generally have among the lowest Heart scores of the six cultures. Heart is the attribute that may be invoked in resisting the Shadow. In some ways this makes dwarves one of the weaker cultures when trying to resist the shadow.

Shadow covers more than just Sauron's corruption. And Dwarves exhibit plenty the kind of things that come under what the Shadow covers.

I also think that this Virtue could help with this ability:

The Stiff Neck of Dwarves
“...yet he was ever a Dwarf with a stiff neck.”
Dwarves are deemed to be stubborn and unyielding. Their natural inclination to persevere against all odds is strengthened by the taint of the Shadow. You add a number equal to your current Shadow score to all your rolls involving the use of a Common skill (with the exception of all Custom skills).


Yes, it doesn't say they are resistant to Shadow but the ill effects are hidden or even confused with their growing wilful and unyielding ways making them seem resistant to it.


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Maltese Changeling
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 12:12 AM
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Couldn't the Dwarves's resistance to corruption be handled by the Loremaster's approach to the mechanical signal that Shadow has overcome Hope? I.e., it's not that the Shadow can't get Dwarves but that a Dwarf who falls victim to Shadow never becomes an agent of Sauron's.


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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 15 2011, 03:42 AM)
- in LOTR, Elves seem to leave virtually no footprints on grass and can even walk on snow. The game uses a quote to this effect, but doesn't actually offer it as an elven quality or a virtue.
- Elves do not suffer from disease, but no mention of this in TOR.

The first seems more of a "narrative" element to me which would best be handled as colour than as an ability.

The disease one is more difficult as I think disease is not covered in TOR at all IIRC


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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 12:21 AM
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Sorry for the multiple posts smile.gif


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Arandil
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 12:37 AM
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Good points. I've noted these things myself and I'm not yet sure how to address them. I suspect that attempting to boil down all of these aspects into mechanical distinctions may be troublesome and unsatisfying, but I don't have any specific suggestions.

There are, essentially, qualitative and quantative approaches that could be taken here. Quantitative in the sense of specific mods or adjustments to listed traits/etc. and/or die rolls. Qualitative in the sense of story conditions or themes that may set special subjective boundaries or circumstances.

I don't really believe that a single Cultural Blessing does justice to any of the races. Perhaps they might work as a distinction above and beyond fundamental qualities.

Fundamental qualities of Elves would include, in addition to your examples above, being more closely bound to Fate of Arda (i.e. the Vision of Illuvatar) than Men. Men specifically were gifted with Free Will, the capability of chosing their own fate in Arda. How to represent this in TOR? It's tricky.

One way to describe Elves more faithfully in TOR could be to grant them fundamental boons in accordance with how they're described, but, to offset these boons with less capability of using the meta currency as freely as other Peoples. There's risks to this approach too, however, including limiting the player in undesirable ways.

I'm still musing, just started, in fact. This may be a great thread to muse aloud on, and I hope that others join here.
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GhostWolf69
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 04:49 AM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 15 2011, 03:42 AM)
TOR does a terrific job of capturing its subject matter, but there are a couple of issues relating to 'missing' abilities from the books:

- in LOTR, Elves seem to leave virtually no footprints on grass and can even walk on snow. The game uses a quote to this effect, but doesn't actually offer it as an elven quality or a virtue.
- Elves don't appear to suffer fatigue from physical exertion (witness Legolas in the three hunters, where he is always the first to rise and the only one to suffer no weariness from the chase). Yet in TOR, elves don't even start with a point in Travel, making them a race very likely to get tired during extended journeys.
- Sauron was not able to corrupt the dwarves, but TOR dwarves generally have among the lowest Heart scores of the six cultures. Heart is the attribute that may be invoked in resisting the Shadow. In some ways this makes dwarves one of the weaker cultures when trying to resist the shadow.
- Elves do not suffer from disease, but no mention of this in TOR.

Thoughts? Any other 'missing' cultural elements from the books? How would you handle the examples given above?

My two cents (in order):

- Sounds like someone want to create their own Cultural Virtue.

- That would be Elvish Dreams in my book.

- Erh... when was the last time you read Bilbo? IIRC there is One quite corrupt and mad "dragon-sick" dwarf there at the end... now he didn't turn into a Wraith or anything that is true, but he surely fell for Corruption, and quite possibly suffered a Bout of Madness as well. And IMO this game is more of a Bilbo Game so far.

Dwarves let loose the Balrog for Christ sake... unintentionally you say... well that's their excuse if you ask me, I say they were so mad with gold-lust they didn't care about the consequences until it was too late.

- Do you have much in the way of Disease rules at all in this game? I suspect this will be taken into account, when Hazards with poison and sickness show up.

The way I see it, with Cultural Virtues etc. is that, sure... Elves can do all that, but if you want it to really matter, you have to spend points making it so. I'm even considering allowing players to pick a Cultural Virtue to start with "instead" of their Cultural Blessing. I mean... why should one particular Cultural Trait be set in stone and not the others? Why not allow the Player the choice of what should matter to his character?

/wolf


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AVJax
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 09:16 AM
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I would say also that Legolas is an Elven Prince so he is probably more powerful than an elf just daring to set foot into the wilderness.

Oh and it wasn't gold that made the dwarves dig too deep but mithril. True Silver, harder than the bones of the earth and more precious and beautiful than the finest diamond (well maybe excepting the Arkenstone).

biggrin.gif
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GhostWolf69
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE (AVJax @ Aug 15 2011, 01:16 PM)
Oh and it wasn't gold that made the dwarves dig too deep but mithril.

Well, since I'm no dwarf myself I can, apparently, hardly tell one precious metal from another. It's all shiny rocks to me. smile.gif

But I think my message was clear... I was tempted to say "crystal clear" but I'll probably just make another mistake. wink.gif

/wolf


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Francesco
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 15 2011, 03:42 AM)
TOR does a terrific job of capturing its subject matter, but there are a couple of issues relating to 'missing' abilities from the books:

- in LOTR, Elves seem to leave virtually no footprints on grass and can even walk on snow. The game uses a quote to this effect, but doesn't actually offer it as an elven quality or a virtue.
- Elves don't appear to suffer fatigue from physical exertion (witness Legolas in the three hunters, where he is always the first to rise and the only one to suffer no weariness from the chase). Yet in TOR, elves don't even start with a point in Travel, making them a race very likely to get tired during extended journeys.
- Sauron was not able to corrupt the dwarves, but TOR dwarves generally have among the lowest Heart scores of the six cultures. Heart is the attribute that may be invoked in resisting the Shadow. In some ways this makes dwarves one of the weaker cultures when trying to resist the shadow.
- Elves do not suffer from disease, but no mention of this in TOR.

Thoughts? Any other 'missing' cultural elements from the books? How would you handle the examples given above?

Concerning Elves and footprints etc.
I long experimented with a Cultural virtue called "Virtue of the Firstborn" to address exactly that description. Unfortunately, I was never sure about what the mechanics for that should have been, as the effects described in the books could be considered either almost 'cosmetical' (the fact that Legolas could walk over snow is both extremely 'localised' and not very helpful to the fellowship) or exceedingly powerful (if Legolas could walk over snow or a rope extended over a raging river, what about shallow water, for example?). In any case, the mechanics I devised never really translated into what the books showed, so I am waiting to find another way...
In any case, I think of it possibly as the expression of the ability of a very experienced Elf, an ability a player-hero might develop over time...

Out of curiosity, check out my latest unpublished take on "Virtue of the Firstborn"- I repeat - it does not reallyserve the purpose, so for the moment it remains only 'apocriphal'... smile.gif

Virtue of the Firstborn
... the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow.

When at the height of their powers, Elves are capable of reaching heights of finesse unattainable by mortals.

When you are getting a (g) result on your Feat die, you are additionally considered to have rolled a special (1) icon on your Success dice.

As a consequence, when this is the case, your roll does not only succeed automatically, but is considered to have succeded in a superior way (see Degrees of Success at page xx). When you complete an action with a (g) result, something unusual has taken place, something that mortal onlookers can only attribute to ‘Elf-magic’.

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bbarlow
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (Francesco @ Aug 15 2011, 05:19 PM)
Virtue of the Firstborn
... the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow.

When at the height of their powers, Elves are capable of reaching heights of finesse unattainable by mortals.

When you are getting a (g) result on your Feat die, you are additionally considered to have rolled a special (1) icon on your Success dice.

As a consequence, when this is the case, your roll does not only succeed automatically, but is considered to have succeded in a superior way (see Degrees of Success at page xx). When you complete an action with a (g) result, something unusual has taken place, something that mortal onlookers can only attribute to ‘Elf-magic’.

Francesco, I really like that Virtue, but I would be wary of extending it to anything except common skills. In particular, if it were to apply to combat, in addition to a Piercing Blow, the elf would always be inflicting additional damage. That seems a bit imbalancing, IMO.

However, in that vein of thinking, and unrelated to the apocryphal Virtue above, do you think that when a Piercing Blow is also accompanied by a Great Success or an Extraordinary Success, that the difficulty for the Protection Test should be increased? Just a tinkering thought there.

Also, if you happen to read this Francesco, do you mind weighing in on the question of precisely when to apply the Fatigue gained from a failed Travel test during a Journey, with respect to Hazards during that Journey (this question was posted in the Tor Errata Thread)?
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Arandil
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 03:50 PM
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Thanks for sharing your design thoughts here, Francesco! It's hard to think of a better way to do that as a Cultural Virtue.

There seems to be two fundamental approaches to handling this sort of thing: 1) Mechanical buffs/mods for tests and tasks, along the lines of Francesco's idea, or 2) adjusting the parameters of associated tests/tasks, qualitatively.

The first option is, in one sense, more straightforward, but has to contend with game balance risks vs. artificial/unfaithful limitations. The second option is much harder to get a handle on, but is more flexible and doesn't really require any mechanical buffs or rule changes.

A good example of the second option is S. John Ross' Hedge Magic idea. Now, eschew any of the system-specific mechanics and consider the fundamental premise, and I think that this is a good conceptual basis for representing Elven 'Art' (and Dwarven Craft/Lore as well, though probably limited to fewer abilities, such as Craft and Lore).

Hedge Magic

The fundamental premise with this idea is to expand/alter the qualitative penumbra (coping a term from PDQ) of skill use, without buffing or modding any of the quantitative values. Does this make sense?
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Albertorius
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 04:25 PM
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I have to say that regarding elves, footprints on snow and such (I'll better not refer to the "Legolas, what do your elf eyes see?" meme, thankyouverymuch tongue.gif)... I'll probably do it as a Speciality origin Trait, "Elven Agility" or somesuch.

A Trait lets you automatically pass a roll, which seems fitting. It also lets you roll when you would not be able to otherwise... which seems even better fitting. And gaining Advancement Points would be the cherry on top happy.gif
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frodolives
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 09:00 PM
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As has been my experience, Francesco is very forthcoming with explaining his design process. I think the idea of the snow-walking being a Trait all elves have works well. It's sort of a second cultural blessing. I also quite like Francesco's original idea; its very vagueness makes it feel like Tolkien.

I wonder if he might address the other issues I had?
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frodolives
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (Skywalker @ Aug 15 2011, 04:07 AM)
QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 15 2011, 03:42 AM)
- Elves don't appear to suffer fatigue from physical exertion (witness Legolas in the three hunters, where he is always the first to rise and the only one to suffer no weariness from the chase). Yet in TOR, elves don't even start with a point in Travel, making them a race very likely to get tired during extended journeys.

Doesn't Elvish Dreams cover that somewhat? OK their Fatigue will grow but they more quickly recover Endurance loss.

Elvish Dreams
“...he could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.”
You have learnt to recover from your exertions while engaging in a repetitive task, like walking, or rowing in a boat. At the end of a day of activity, you recover a number of Endurance points equal to your Wisdom rank. If you then take a prolonged rest, you recover normally.

It helps a little bit, but it seems quite clear that elves simply don't suffer fatigue from running and traveling. Thus, recovering quickly from it is sort of beside the point. At the very least I would think a beginning Travel value of 3 would be fitting. But even then, it puts them on equal footing with dwarves; in LOTR Gimli admits to being very tired from the chase, but Legolas suffers no such ill-effects.
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frodolives
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (Arandil @ Aug 15 2011, 04:37 AM)
Fundamental qualities of Elves would include, in addition to your examples above, being more closely bound to Fate of Arda (i.e. the Vision of Illuvatar) than Men. Men specifically were gifted with Free Will, the capability of chosing their own fate in Arda. How to represent this in TOR? It's tricky.

I think the easiest way is for elves to have lower Hope scores. Hope ultimately represents the ability of a character to 'shape their destiny' beyond their natural abilities. Men have it, elves not so much. I'm not sure why dwarves have the lowest Hope scores.
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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 16 2011, 01:03 AM)
It helps a little bit, but it seems quite clear that elves simply don't suffer fatigue from running and traveling. Thus, recovering quickly from it is sort of beside the point. At the very least I would think a beginning Travel value of 3 would be fitting. But even then, it puts them on equal footing with dwarves; in LOTR Gimli admits to being very tired from the chase, but Legolas suffers no such ill-effects.

I don't think equating the supernatural ability of the elves to resist fatigue is best represented by a high Travel Skill. The Skill covers a more than just that element such as avoiding Hazards.

As such, another mechanism like Elvish Dreams or a Virtue where they ignore Fatigue from failed Fatigue tests would be better. That also avoids Elvish supernatural ability here being easily equated with anyone else with a high Travel.


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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 16 2011, 01:08 AM)
I think the easiest way is for elves to have lower Hope scores. Hope ultimately represents the ability of a character to 'shape their destiny' beyond their natural abilities. Men have it, elves not so much. I'm not sure why dwarves have the lowest Hope scores.

Elves do have low Heart scores which impacts on Hope quite a bit. Outside of Dwarves they will have the lowest Hope even though their base of 8 is the same as Bardings and Beornings.


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Arandil
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 15 2011, 05:08 PM)
I think the easiest way is for elves to have lower Hope scores. Hope ultimately represents the ability of a character to 'shape their destiny' beyond their natural abilities. Men have it, elves not so much. I'm not sure why dwarves have the lowest Hope scores.

I had thought of that (give Elves starting Hope = 4 + Heart, assuming more buffs than other races). That is the easiest option, but it has the drawback of limiting the player as much as the character; sure, maybe their rolls are always buffed a bit, but they can't invoke so much of the neat stuff that Hope is used for. Hence, the 'tricky' comment. wink.gif
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Arandil
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE (Skywalker @ Aug 15 2011, 05:16 PM)
Elves do have low Heart scores which impacts on Hope quite a bit. Outside of Dwarves they will have the lowest Hope even though their base of 8 is the same as Bardings and Beornings.

Right, but those Backgrounds presented in the AB are not strict, all-inclusive choices; Backgrounds are expressly provided as examples only.

QUOTE
Adventurers Book - page 33
- emphasis mine


Backgrounds
Six example ‘packages’ appropriate to the culture.



There's no reason that an Elf player character could not start with higher Heart scores than listed in the provided Background examples.
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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 15 2011, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (Arandil @ Aug 16 2011, 02:08 AM)
QUOTE (Skywalker @ Aug 15 2011, 05:16 PM)
Elves do have low Heart scores which impacts on Hope quite a bit. Outside of Dwarves they will have the lowest Hope even though their base of 8 is the same as Bardings and Beornings.

Right, but those Backgrounds presented in the AB are not strict, all-inclusive choices; Backgrounds are expressly provided as examples only.

QUOTE
Adventurers Book - page 33
- emphasis mine


Backgrounds
Six example ‘packages’ appropriate to the culture.



There's no reason that an Elf player character could not start with higher Heart scores than listed in the provided Background examples.

I am not so sure that is correct, if you are looking to remain consistent with the overall TOR design.

Yes, each Culture has 6 sample Backgrounds. But those Backgrounds consistently show a range of values based on a prioritisation of Attributes by Culture as follows:

Primary Attribute for Culture 5-7
Secondary Attribute for Culture 4-6
Tertiary Attribute for Culture 2-4

This is true of every Background and Culture so far presented, showing a definite Cultural influence for Attributes. If you were creating new Backgrounds for a Culture I think you would want to continue this approach for consistency.

So new Backgrounds for Mirkwood Elves would have:

Body 4-6
Heart 2-4
Wits 5-7

The full list of prioritisation for each Culture is (1st, 2nd, 3rd):

Bardings: Heart, Body Wits
Beornings: Body, Heart, Wits
Dwarves: Body, Wits, Heart
Elves: Wits, Body, Heart
Hobbits: Wits, Heart, Body


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Arandil
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 12:30 AM
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QUOTE (Skywalker @ Aug 15 2011, 06:29 PM)
I am not so sure that is correct, if you are looking to remain consistent with the overall TOR design.

Yes, each Culture has 6 sample Backgrounds. But those Backgrounds consistently show a range of values based on a prioritisation of Attributes by Culture as follows:

Primary Attribute for Culture 5-7
Secondary Attribute for Culture 4-6
Tertiary Attribute for Culture 2-4

This is true of every Background and Culture so far presented, showing a definite Cultural influence for Attributes. If you were creating new Backgrounds for a Culture I think you would want to continue this approach for consistency.

So new Backgrounds for Mirkwood Elves would have:

Body 4-6
Heart 2-4
Wits 5-7

The full list of prioritisation for each Culture is (1st, 2nd, 3rd):

Bardings: Heart, Body Wits
Beornings: Body, Heart, Wits
Dwarves: Body, Wits, Heart
Elves: Wits, Body, Heart
Hobbits: Wits, Heart, Body

Understood, I saw this posted before (handy guide btw) but what I mean to imply is that it may be a stretch to devise mods to the game that _count_ on every group playing it this way. I really don't think that'll happen, and therefore I believe that it's not a dependable offset for the purposes being discussed here, unless these trait ranges were made explicit in any house rule or mod. I also, personally, find this kind of contraint arbitrary and artificial, effectively molding the setting to the game system rather than the other way around.

I can see why the example backgrounds were designed the way that they were, but I don't really see any reason why an Elf or Dwarf's basic Heart score should top out at 4 for the duration of a character's lifetime, effectively. There's wiggle room in the interpretation of the source material, but it's pretty tenuous. I think there's got to be better options for handling Elven/Dwarven distinctions than arbitrarily capping Heart at 4 across the board. Still beating the grass though.

Cheers
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frodolives
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 12:30 AM
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QUOTE (Skywalker @ Aug 16 2011, 01:09 AM)
I don't think equating the supernatural ability of the elves to resist fatigue is best represented by a high Travel Skill. The Skill covers a more than just that element such as avoiding Hazards.

As such, another mechanism like Elvish Dreams or a Virtue where they ignore Fatigue from failed Fatigue tests would be better. That also avoids Elvish supernatural ability here being easily equated with anyone else with a high Travel.

The rulebook really emphasizes Travel as being a mechanism for avoiding fatigue on journeys. Even though it does include avoiding Hazards (sometimes), it seems odd to me that elves would be anemic at doing so. The Explore skill seems to be the one for avoiding hazards; the use of the Travel skill strikes me as inconsistent in the rules. The Explore skill's description (p. 90) details choosing a suitable place for setting up camp and for finding your way after getting lost. Yet... the LM books says to use the Travel skill for that stuff (page 35). Hmmmmm.... errata anyone?

On another topic... why do dwarves get such a high skill in Riddle? Am I forgetting something from the books? They also get a higher skill in Explore than elves. I'm not getting that one either.
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bbarlow
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 12:43 AM
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It seems to me that the elves of Mirkwood don't often venture beyond their realm. In fact, isn't Thranduil described as being so wary of the outside world that he moved his kingdom underground to protect his people? Seems like they keep to within their realm's borders. As such, it doesn't make a ton of sense for them to have starting Travel skills of any significance. Just my opinion.
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Arandil
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 12:47 AM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 15 2011, 08:30 PM)
The rulebook really emphasizes Travel as being a mechanism for avoiding fatigue on journeys. Even though it does include avoiding Hazards (sometimes), it seems odd to me that elves would be anemic at doing so. The Explore skill seems to be the one for avoiding hazards; the use of the Travel skill strikes me as inconsistent in the rules. The Explore skill's description (p. 90) details choosing a suitable place for setting up camp and for finding your way after getting lost. Yet... the LM books says to use the Travel skill for that stuff (page 35). Hmmmmm.... errata anyone?

On another topic... why do dwarves get such a high skill in Riddle? Am I forgetting something from the books? They also get a higher skill in Explore than elves. I'm not getting that one either.

Yeah, I'm with ya on all points. I'm taking all of the pre-defined cultural character stuff as guides and training wheels, rather than hard law. This is an example of how game balance can be at odds with a setting, or assumed reality. It seems a bit of a stretch to assume that ALL characters of a given race have the same exact starting skill ranks (OK, technically, the rules are describing cultures, but since there's only one Elven, Dwarven and Hobbit culture defined in the game so far, they're effectively racial templates).

I think that what I'll do is have a given set of familiar abilities for each culture that all start at rank 1 (with some _possibly_ at rank 2, such as Craft for Dwarves, no more to start), and another pool of points that that can be used to increase some minority of these familiar abilities to 2 or 3, player choice. So, flexibility within fuzzy contraints that strongly suggest assumed cultural archetypes but still allow (I'd say, natural) variation.

On a side note, personally, I'm more a proponent of _believable_ characters that evoke their story, setting and origins, rather than an opponent of mechanical game 'inbalance'. I don't believe that it's actually possible to mechanically balance everything about an rpg, because the non-mechanical subjective aspects of play (i.e. the inifinite variety of scenes and situations that a group of human beings will imagine) will always have the ability to trump mechanical balance or at least heavily bias it. If all characters have something interesting to do and have more or less equal spotlight time in their respective schticks, and the players are having fun, then a game is 'balanced' to me. Wait ... how did I get on this soap box? *shuffle shuffle squeak .... stroll away ... whistle* unsure.gif
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bbarlow
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 16 2011, 04:30 AM)
On another topic... why do dwarves get such a high skill in Riddle? Am I forgetting something from the books? They also get a higher skill in Explore than elves. I'm not getting that one either.

Good question. Maybe it's because of the apparent riddle on the West Gate of Moria? As for Explore, maybe it is related to their penchant for delving.
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Francesco
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 05:52 AM
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"It helps a little bit, but it seems quite clear that elves simply don't suffer fatigue from running and traveling. Thus, recovering quickly from it is sort of beside the point. At the very least I would think a beginning Travel value of 3 would be fitting. But even then, it puts them on equal footing with dwarves; in LOTR Gimli admits to being very tired from the chase, but Legolas suffers no such ill-effects."

Attempting to derive the starting skills for a race from the descriptions of Legolas, Gimli, etc. is very dangerous, IMO. Most companions in the fellowship were very far from being 'average' in their abilities.

Francesco
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frodolives
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 09:01 AM
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QUOTE (Francesco @ Aug 16 2011, 09:52 AM)
Attempting to derive the starting skills for a race from the descriptions of Legolas, Gimli, etc. is very dangerous, IMO. Most companions in the fellowship were very far from being 'average' in their abilities.

Francesco

I take your point, but Gimli and Legolas are the most tangible examples we have. I don't think either character were necessarily exceptional for their race; it was pointed out that Legolas was certainly not among the great elves, nor was Gimli a particularly prominent dwarf.

Could you clear up the seeming contradiction between Explore in the Player's Book and Travel in the LM Book?
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Francesco
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 16 2011, 01:01 PM)
Could you clear up the seeming contradiction between Explore in the Player's Book and Travel in the LM Book?

I think that it is the 'Uncomfortable lodgings' Hazard example that is a bit confusing. It would have probably better if the intro went as follows: "The guide repeatedly makes poor choices WHEN to camp and find shelter for the night."

Francesco
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frodolives
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE (Francesco @ Aug 16 2011, 01:39 PM)
QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 16 2011, 01:01 PM)
Could you clear up the seeming contradiction between Explore in the Player's Book and Travel in the LM Book?

I think that it is the 'Uncomfortable lodgings' Hazard example that is a bit confusing. It would have probably better if the intro went as follows: "The guide repeatedly makes poor choices WHEN to camp and find shelter for the night."

Francesco

Aha! That makes a big difference and makes more sense! Any chance that might make it into official errata?
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Francesco
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 12:21 PM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 16 2011, 03:27 PM)
Aha! That makes a big difference and makes more sense! Any chance that might make it into official errata?

I'll make sure it gets under a list of clarifications. Many thanks!

Francesco
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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (Francesco @ Aug 16 2011, 01:39 PM)
I think that it is the 'Uncomfortable lodgings' Hazard example that is a bit confusing. It would have probably better if the intro went as follows: "The guide repeatedly makes poor choices WHEN to camp and find shelter for the night."

"Should we be alternating sleeping and travelling in one hour blocks, day and night?"

"Shuddup! I is teh Guide!"

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frodolives
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (Francesco @ Aug 16 2011, 04:21 PM)
QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 16 2011, 03:27 PM)
Aha! That makes a big difference and makes more sense! Any chance that might make it into official errata?

I'll make sure it gets under a list of clarifications. Many thanks!

Francesco

Great! Can you also address the contradiction between the Explore skill and this example from the LM book regarding Lost Direction:

"The guide has lost the path he was meant to follow and must rely on his skill to keep heading in the right direction while traversing a trackless area."

This is almost exactly what the Explore skill says, but in the example it directs us to use Travel. The example makes it sound like the Guide is trying to get 'unlost', which surely is an Explore skill (?).
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Osric
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE (frodolives @ Aug 16 2011, 09:25 PM)
Can you also address the contradiction between the Explore skill and this example from the LM book regarding Lost Direction:

"The guide has lost the path he was meant to follow and must rely on his skill to keep heading in the right direction while traversing a trackless area."

This is almost exactly what the Explore skill says, but in the example it directs us to use Travel. The example makes it sound like the Guide is trying to get 'unlost', which surely is an Explore skill (?).

My guess was that orientation and direction-finding are Travel features, where Explore is used for locating something specific. If you're lost but need to rediscover an actual road, Explore could do that, but if you're heading overland by dead reckoning would that still be Travel?
I have to say that the desc of Explore (AB, p 90) does seem to put all of that navigation stuff into the Explore skill, whilst Travel is for how well you get along on whatever route you're on...

Cheers,
--Os.
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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 09:23 PM
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QUOTE (Osric @ Aug 17 2011, 01:09 AM)
I have to say that the desc of Explore (AB, p 90) does seem to put all of that navigation stuff into the Explore skill, whilst Travel is for how well you get along on whatever route you're on...

That also seems consistent with Explore being the Body Survival Skill, reflecting using ones physical senses in the Wild, and Travel is the Heart Movement Skill, reflecting managing and enduring long distance travel.


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frodolives
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 12:16 AM
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QUOTE (Osric @ Aug 17 2011, 01:09 AM)
My guess was that orientation and direction-finding are Travel features, where Explore is used for locating something specific. If you're lost but need to rediscover an actual road, Explore could do that, but if you're heading overland by dead reckoning would that still be Travel?

That's a good guess, but I'm still not seeing it. The descriptions below sure make it seem like Explore is the one for orientation and direction finding, while Travel is about enduring fatigue and hardship along the way.

I'll bet that Francesco intends it to be the way you're suggesting, but the actual wording doesn't support it. I also think that keeping Travel as a purely fatigue-related skill and Explore as a purely orienteering skill makes them a lot easier to work with. When each skill seems to intrude upon the other, something is a bit amiss.

Explore: "Adventurers rely on their Explore skill when they move through an unfamiliar area of the Wild. An Explore test may be required during a journey to find the company’s heading, or to get back on track after a detour; to cope with adverse weather conditions or other natural hazards; to create paths through the wilderness suitable for others to follow; or to choose a suitable place to set up camp. A high Explore rating is an invaluable resource for a companion acting as a scout for his group of adventurers."

Travel: "In the Third Age, the cities, villages and towns of Middle earth are often separated by many leagues of wild or deserted areas. Roads that used to lead safely to distant realms now end in broken trails that go nowhere. When the company needs to cover a distance across uncertain territory, including by boat, every companion is required to perform one or more tests using the Travel skill to avoid becoming weary too soon. While certainly the product of experience, the use of Travel benefits mostly from a hero’s strength of spirit."
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