Hello,

I have a few questions for the middle-earth savvy people

• Cultural Musical Instruments
  
  In the Loremaster book, it is stipulated that a person with the Song common skil at rank 1 or more could have a musical instrument specific to his culture. I do remember Thorin's harp, but I'd like to know what musical instruments you'd recommend for each TOR culture.
  
  
  
• Location illustration in the rulebook
  
  I've re read the hobbit recently, but am still having a hard recognizing some of the places depicted in the two TOR rulebooks. So could you all help me complete this list ?
  
  Adventurer Book
  Cover: Mirkwood ?
  page 6-7: ?
  page 28-29: ?
  page 82-83: the Shire ?
  page 118-119: ?
  page 141: ?
  page 146-147: The Carrock ?
  page 166-167: Erebor ?
  
  Loremaster Book
  Cover: ?
  page 4-5 : Laketown ?
  page 9-10: Misty Mountain pass ?
  page 54-55 : ?
  page 86-87: Rivendell ?
  page 122-123: Dale ?

Adventurer Book
Cover: Mirkwood
page 6-7: Dale (Although the image might have been flipped along it's vertical axis - right page should be left, etc - because as I recall Dale is on the western bank of the River Running. Anyway, the clue is the bridge - the one Bilbo crosses after sneaking out to give Bard & Co the Arkenstone.)
page 28-29: Misty Mountains (preferred) or Grey Mounains / Withered Heath (unlikely - seem to be too close together & tall)?
page 82-83: the Shire - presumably, no way to be certain as insufficient detail to suggest / evoke a particular scene. Clearly farmland, but no discernible habitation.
page 118-119: Eastern Gate of Moria (the clue is the 3 arched doorways. re: Dwarves vs Orc War)
page 141: View from the Carrock (note broken pillars, stairs and shallow water among rocks)
page 146-147: Looking northeast at the Western face of the Carrock (Mirkwood is behind, right background)
page 166-167: No. Erebor has only the entrance with the Running River coming out and the secret passage (officially per Tolkien). This does not correspond to either entrance. It's obviously dwarven, but doesn't match the description of the Western Gate of Moria. Perhaps it is meant as one of the abandoned dwarven settlements of the Grey Mountains/Withered Heath? Iron Hills (cannot recall if they were completely abandoned for a time [shattered gates])?

Loremaster Book
Cover: Entrance to Erebor
page 4-5 : Laketown
page 9-10: High Pass. The lightning evokes memories of Thorin & Co, thus my assumption on which pass this is.)
page 54-55 : Dol Guldur is my guess. The architecture here is the clue. The main building atop the hill has flying buttresses and lots of arches, letting in light & air, which implies Elven construction. At one time the Necromancer's home was Amon Lanc, the Elven capital of Greenwood the Great before it was tainted and re-named Mirkwood. The leftmost tower's foot is surrounded either by denuded trees, remnants of a palisade or poles for hanging whomever. Note also that the tree roots are growing over the wall in an outward motion, but no trees remain. The entire area inside the curtain wall has been cleared - an act of evil (Tolkien loved trees and complete deforestation was an evil act in his mind).
page 86-87: Rivendell
page 122-123: Unsure. Lots of supposition here, as follows:

Definitely some evil-infested ruins, probably orcs. Note left page has multiple cave openings glowing with fire. Inside the ruins along every flat surface are huts, including atop all towers. All of which appear rough and slovenly, thus a bastion of evil.

The problem with this last image is that it evokes no particular imagery appropriate to Wilderland or specifically from The Hobbit or LotR. The river extends almost to the horizon implying it must be the Anduin, which means we are looking southward from a ruined fortification somewhere within the Grey Mountains. However, the simple unadorned architecture of the ruins implies Man, not Dwarves (or Elves). Yet it would most likely be a Dwarven ruin, if anything.

It cannot be the view from Minas Ithil / Minas Morgul toward Gondor/Rohan as the river is positioned incorrectly. While it might be some other river, the length precludes most possibilities in Wilderland. Certain rivers in Eriador might work although no such vantage point comes to mind.

Really all I can think of is Mount Gundabad, or thereabouts. However this does not seem accurate as you would have to look east southeast to view the Anduin from that (thus the river would be flowing in a different direction). Nor is there an island amidst the river shown in the area (which might just be the graphic equivalent of poetic license).

I've always been convinced that it was Gundabad as well Garn. It's looking south along the Anduin Vale with Mirkwood to the East. There appear to be the shadows of the Mountains of Mirkwood in there as well.

Perhaps Jon could clear it up for us?

Halbarad,
It would be nice, but I'm thinking it might be a little while as, last I knew, Cubicle7 went off to the Game Expo. I'm not sure how long that runs. Then, of course, he's going to need a Fellowship Phase for Recovery.


Booga,
I would suggest spending some time looking over Wikipedia: Musical Instruments including the various links off that page, particularly Wikipedia: List of Musical Instruments.

We know from Thorin & Co that fiddles, flutes, drums (singular, not the multiple drum sets commonly known today), viols, clarinets and harps existed within Middle-earth, specifically. Which places musical instrumentation in Middle-earth comparable to 1550+ AD. Thus almost the entire range of musical instruments are available. It is limited somewhat by the existence of the originating culture within Middle-earth. So unless you want to use some unique culturally dependent variant instrument, you should be fine.

At least, that is what my investigation of Wikipedia tells me!

I think that many of the musical instruments would be interchangeable between the cultures. Lutes and Mandolins, Lyres, Tambor and Bodhran style drums, tin whistles and wooden recorders to name but a few.
My Woodman character carries a tin whistle as a prized possession, although he exhibits little ability in it's actual use.

And don't forget the Cowbell!

"Gotta have more cowbell!"

-Christopher Walken on SNL

Great answers all, many thanks


I do agree about the cowbells !

going with the Saxon theme, you should have a look at the saxon lyre (played with or without a bow), the rebec (a lute-like instrument), the traditional harp and simple flutes and whistles for human cultures.

I could imagine Southern cultures (Gondor) to possess a broader variety of brass horns and trumpets and wider variations on the lute. I thinks Dwarves and northmen would share most of the northern musical regalia, with perhaps a slightly wider variety of flutes and wind instruments for the Elves of Mirkwood.

Glorfindel

I would also like to add a question to the middle-earth savvy people:

I am looking for pictures of Rhosgobel and Woodland Hall. Are there any in the books that I overlooked or didn' t recognize this way? Or are there other sources for pictures or artwork of those places?

In my Wilderland saga there's a hero from each culture, and it turned out that they all have ranks in Song. I guided my players with their instrument choices, which ended up as follows:

Steinwald (Barding) - mandolin
Baldergard (Beorning) - bodhran
Svalin, son of Svili (Dwarf) - silver flute
Hambo Noakes (Hobbit) - fiddle
Alfric Wildwalker (Woodmen) - pipes (of wood & bone)
Daelin (Elf) - lyre

Other popular considerations (tip o'hat Halbarad) were: tin whistle, recorder, clarinet (& variant reeded woodwinds), horns, tambo, lute .... and bells possibly for the dwarf (nod to SirK!)
We also discussed harp and dulcimer but considered these to be most cumbersome for adventurers. (Just where did Thorin pack his?)

Of course a player may be inspired to have their hero learn any instrument they can justify contextually.
We took into account the type & quality of resources that each culture would craft into musical instruments, as well as the styles of workmanship.
The attitude /personality of each character was also considered.

I like the way Custom & Personality skills are employed in the game, and anticipate the musicality of this group of heroes will play a significant role in many role-playing encounters....
Now all they need is a band name! .... "The Journeymen"... "The Tavern Players"...
Any suggestions?

Up to this point I thought it was Dale, the ruins of the more fortified remnant re-inhabited just after Bo5A but before reconstruction got fully underway. I figured the peaks in the distance were the Iron Hills...

We definitely want Jon's input on this one when he comes up for air

I thought p122-123 was just a generic orc infested ruin. Nice place to visit (with a big axe ).

Nukenin,
I'm not sure, I will have to get back to you. There is the obvious image on AB 68, but I'm assuming you saw that.


Cheesewyrm,
That is an interesting idea and definitely one that I did not consider. I guess because the dwarves are so secretive that they did not generally create above ground structures except for defenses and trade roads.


My own Question
I've forgotten a military fortification term. What do you call the sharpened logs placed into the ground at a slanted upward angle? They're meant to prevent large scale charges from overwhelming defensive positions. It's not a palisade (vertical spikes / fence). It's the ones in the embankment just in front of the palisade. It's starting to bug me.

Abatis? stakes?

@Garn, yes I saw that, but I am not sure what to make of it. Is that Radagast' s home? Or Rhosgobel? Definately too small for Woodland Hall ..

Halbarad,
Abatis! That was the term I was looking for, thank you! (Not recalling this term was starting to drive me crazy.)


Nukenin,
I agree, that image does not appear capable of being Rhosgobel as it cannot hold sufficient inhabitants. I assumed it was meant to be more of an example of the average settlement for that racial type.

But I also wondered if this is a society where unmarried warriors / men tend to live in a group outside of the family unit. In which case they would probably be located inside the Great Hall. Allowing these men to be "young, dumb and dangerous" (if I've quoted Adam Ant correctly) together without too much negative impact on friends and family.

Well that is exactly what I read in the description of Rhosgobel: "here the Woodmen dwell under one roof, the long House of the folk, as is their custom" ... well. I am really not very firm in the lore of Middle-Earth, so I wonder if this is the way of the woodmen, all living in the Great Hall? Or is it truly just the "young, dumb and dangerous"?

Well I was originally in 2 minds whether that was Rhosgobel on AB 68.
I reckon it is a very large hall, with smaller halls beyond the palisade (and more out of view?)
Acknowledging Jon's symbolism of placing the songbird prominently in frame - I'm betting it IS Rhosgobel, with a nice tower for ol' Radagast.

Pondering further on this, methinks only folk of highest standing would reside in this 'greatest' hall (with immediate family and most trusted/indispensable attendants & men-at-arms). Other folk affiliated with the day to day activity of this hall are likely to inhabit those smaller outer 'great' halls.
The "young, dumb & dangerous" warriors, and other Woodmen-folk probably are housed in other great halls and lesser abodes (ie: smiths, tanners, etc) that are out of view in this picture.

I found another image:
AB p109: Looking out the door of a Woodman dwelling. Note the central firepit with cauldron and the hole in the roof overhead. I have no idea what is tied up along the right - looks like a bound legless cadaver. Pig, sheep or goat in distance outside door.


Come to think of it, someone in a previous topic (couple months ago?) said that Rhosgobel translated to something like "High Hedge". I'm not sure if the palisade would qualify as a hedge - unless it's a euphemism. So we're back to 50/50, I think. Although the bird is a good point.

As for the Woodmen entry for Rhosgobel, I must admit that I had forgotten it stated they all live together. I was half-remembering a Viking / Scandinavian (?) book I read so many years ago its kinda scary now that I think about it.

Vikings were a feudal system in that only a few people were enfeoffed. The remaining inhabitants were literally dependent on their lords to provide everything else they needed.

This would pretty much make the "young, dumb and dangerous" all of the inhabitants. But as I recall, and meant it when I originally posted the reference, their was something about the warriors staying up, drinking and swapping outrageous lies - I mean epic tales. Challenges of prowess were made and games ensued. Inebriated, they either toddled off to their assigned sleeping , or just passed out "as was".

Almost any historic period movie with a party/feast scene where the lord and his cronies engage in drinking would basically be correct. It makes little difference whether it is Medieval, Greek, Roman, or Chinese. Although rape and debauchery was less prevalent as Viking women were very commonly taught how to defend themselves and their homes in case of attack while the men were elsewhere.

Huzzah, just looked at a site called Jonhodgson.com. It confirms that the ruins are Gundabad and that the Woodman settlement is a typical Woodman Holding.

Halbarad,
Nice catch.

That's Gundabad, the ruins are those of the original dwarven hold then. .... Well I'll be jiggered!
So the view below is the Upper Anduin vale, with northern Mirkwood and Mtns of Mirkwood on the horizon.
OK, I can live with that ;P
Huzzah Halbarad!

Yeah, Jon must have left the details out because he thought they wouldn't really be seen and thus did not matter.

Did you notice that the picture appears to be vertically flipped? (Ruins are on the right page.)

Yeah Garn, I did actually notice that. The picture on the site seems to be a mirror image of the one in the book. Looks a lot less like Gundabad in mirror image though, doesn't it?

That was my thought as well. Particularly as it makes the placement of the forest and mountains more suspect.

Despite the image title, the perspective (of the image as seen in TOR book) still makes me think it is situated near the two Anduin source hexes in the Grey Mountains. Rather than being a part of Mount Gundabad's fortifications themselves.

Two other images from that site jumped out at me as also being a bit 'iffy' - Moria East Gate and Grey Hills. I thought they were Generic Abandoned Dwarf Settlement and Carrock, respectively. Particularly since the only grey hills I remember was in regards to the Emyn Muil and those rocks are too rounded for that - and that is ignoring the water! Unless Jon meant the foothills of the Grey Mountains.

Aye Garn, to my eye 'Grey Hills' seems to be a view north along the upper Anduin towards the uplands rising to the Grey Mtns, hence (IMO) Jon's title.
Looks like the energy & volume of waters from the mountainous sources has deposited a lot of river boulders at this point, so I suggest the viewer is far up the river - perhaps on the Greylin (first major tributary of the Anduin).
Just think of the trout fishing! (The eagles appear to agree).

Seems that the 'Moria East Gate' image has also been flipped for the book. May I query why you find this one "iffy" (other than the flipping)?

I cannot recall the exact book or story name I just remember reading the story itself, which is why I'm a bit vague. If I recall correctly, writings on the Dwarf vs Orc battle at Nanduhirion with Azog, it specifically states that the Moria East Gate has 3 arched doorways (only - the doors are ripped off, I believe).

There is a passing comment on the doors. Something like: "And the orcs (balrog?), standing in the deep shadows formed of the triple arched doorway of Moria's East Gate, .... yada yada"

Here are a couple of relevant links to the story I'm talking about, although neither reference the number or type of doors.

Tolkien Gateway: Great Gates
Tolkien Gateway: Battle of Azanulbizar

Also, although by no means a reliable source as they can take poetic lincense to any undefined /event just like TOR, LotRO has the East Gate appearing as 3 arched doorways, lacking doors. Keeping in mind that LotRO also is a licensed product and has to undergo review from MeE as well.


Thanks for clarifying the "Grey [Mountain Foot]Hills" image. I had not thought of boulders washed out by the waters and could not otherwise place them.