Hi everyone!

I've recently started running a One Ring campaign. We began with the Marsh Bell, and then followed with Don't Leave the Path from Tales from Wilderland, with its - a mild spoiler follows - one-month-or-so long journey through Mirkwood.

We had fun, but still, the journey seemed too easy for such a difficult path - after all, Bilbo and the dwarves had barely made it through Mirkwood! Our party, however, made journey tests at most three times (as far as I remember, since I don't have the adventure map at hand now), and 2-3 points of Fatigue PCs got had little effect in game. Also, as the tests were quite rare, we never rolled any Eyes of Sauron - so no random encounters, unfortunately!

We used Revised Journey Rules 3.0, and we rolled one test every 12 days (since it was summer, and players travelled with ponies). Our hunter and look-out never got to test their skills.

Are your journeys similarly easy? Or maybe I missed a rule or two?

Kinda wondering that as well. While the original Journey rules might have been a bit too tough (still not sure - need to play more), the v3 rules seem rather minimal. Not many tests, making it very unlikely to encounter any Hazards (which seems to be an interesting part of the game).

I guess I'm a little unclear what the designer's intent is here: central to the game experience (generating not only Fatigue but more importantly story elements through Hazards), or minor inconvenience.

I've not used these new rules on such a long journey but the combination of altering the advantage a pony gives from halving encumbrance to halving the number of required test PLUS the reduction of tests/rolls due to working through the Marching Order of the group does make things look a little too easy.

So, just looking back at my route planner for journeying along the Old Forest Road from east to west Mirkwood. I planned that out at taking 46 days. Under the old rules this would be 8 Fatigue Tests in summer for each party member. Under the new rules it changes to:

1 for All Companions
1 for the Guide
1 for the Scout
1 for the Huntsman
1 for the Look-Out Man
1 for All Companions
1 for the Guide
1 for the Scout

If they were using ponies then that would be halved:

1 for All Companions
1 for the Guide
1 for the Scout
1 for the Huntsman

... That does seem a little easy. Considering that a party could using Hope to pass such test if they only rolled average results on their feat and success dice, then that would only be 4 Hope spent for the whole party and they would have traveled across Mirkwood without sustaining any Fatigue. That's some of the most taxing terrain in Wilderland.

Now, any self-respecting LM would design a number of encounters during such a journey but looking at the changes to the basic journey rules in isolation they do look a little on the light side don't they? Perhaps I'm missing something too. I'm not 100% familiar with these new rules.

Proposal: Perhaps a halfway house between the old and new would be to remove the advantage ponies and boats give in halving the required number of tests?

Another consideration to look at would be to perhaps tweak the Season Table entries with regard to the number of days for each Fatigue Test. We could go with altering the table as follows:

Winter: 2
Spring: 4
Summer: 5
Autumn: 3

... Thereby reducing each season by 1 day each, meaning that each role entry on the Marching Order table gets increased exposure to Fatigue Tests.

Using this and ignoring the pony rules would give 10 tests for the journey along the Old Forest Road as follows:

1 for All Companions
1 for the Guide
1 for the Scout
1 for the Huntsman
1 for the Look-Out Man
1 for All Companions
1 for the Guide
1 for the Scout
1 for the Huntsman
1 for the Look-Out Man

Still only a total of 4 tests each for crossing such an expanse whereas originally there were 8 tests for each companion as per the LM book.

And for squid's original query it would give 6 tests for an approximately 30 day journey, so:

1 for All Companions
1 for the Guide
1 for the Scout
1 for the Huntsman
1 for the Look-Out Man
1 for All Companions

Still only 3 tests each whereas the original rules (ie, in the LM book) would give you 6 tests for each companion.

So, with these alterations (ie, lowering the number of days on the Season Table and ignoring the advantage a pony gives) you're effectively halving the number of tests for each companion compared to the original RAW but increasing them substantially over the newer journey rules.

... Does that seem better for you, squid?

Hi squid. I'd agree. I've actually been sticking with the original journey rules for the time being, as I felt they were closer to what I wanted than the slightly "toothless" revision. I'm only on session 3 of our campaign though so I haven't done a lot of journeying yet. I wanted to see how it went.

Out of interest, seeing as I just happen to have done this calculation myself (ready for our next session) and have arrived at a different answer; assuming that you're using the Old Forest Road and referencing the Terrain Difficulty table on LB pg32, isn't a journey along "any road or path in Mirkwood" calculated at Severe and hence this would only be 34 days? Or am I missing something?

Using the online route planner here I got:

By the rules, you're correct so you aren't missing anything. For some of the journey though I thought the Old Forest Road would be overgrown and unused (ie, not relly qualifying as a path/road) and therefore decided not to apply that rule. That's why we get different results. I think I decided that around 150 miles of it would be overgrown etc and therefore at Severe rating.

That makes eminent sense Rich.

Given it was you, I'd have been surprised if you hadn't had a good explanation

Thanks for clearing that up.

Should've explained it when I posted but I'd forgotten what I did until I looked more closely. Sorry for the confusion!

I make mistakes all the time! Maybe I do them all with my gaming group!

@Rich H: it's a great idea with lowering the number of days for a Fatigue Test, thanks!

I started the campaign with the revised rules - there were some ambiguities in the original rules, as far as I remember, and I thought it's great that even an extremely skilled party could have a chance of random encounters. But maybe the original rules are worth taking a look after all.

Glad you like them. At least now you have three options:

1) Go with the new rules - which do appear to be a bit "non-taxing" and very rarely will all companions get to make tests within their travel roles which does seem to be missing the point!

2) Go with the old rules - so lots of tests for EVERYONE all the time, which can be very taxing on long journeys but maybe it should be!

3) Go with my suggestion which is sort of halfway between the two official ones - so, adopt the new rules but remove the advantage a pony/boat gives (ie, halving number of required tests) and alter the Season Table entries so tests occur more often.

I personally think this is a non-issue. The One Ring is a game in which care is to be taken with each of the modes of play: combat, journeys, encounters, general adventuring, and fellowship phase. None is supposed to be breezed over. ("You want to go from Dale to the Shire? POOF! You're there.") Making a journey isn't like popping by the supermarket for milk.

Oh, boo hoo! I have to make four tests! This game is badwrongfun!

I don't think anyone's suggesting that are they? ... We've been debating the new rules looking too easy so I would think that implies the opposite, yes?

In this topic, yes. But the new rules were devised because there was nearly universal agreement, here and elsewhere, that journeys required too much dice-rolling. Look up nearly any review on the game and you'll see that complaint.

I think the new rules make things too easy, and the original rules weren't a problem.

And I was feeling melodramatic.

I think there is too much dice rolling, but the desire for less dice rolling doesn't mean I want journeys to be easier which we seem to have got with this new rules variant. I'd have preferred less rolls but the same impact on the game with regard to Hazards and Fatigue.

Perhaps Encumbrance fatigue needs increasing if a Fatigue Test is failed...

I don't know for me the jorney's are now better in my opinion of course that is because my adventures are generally more dangerous.Mainly because I force my PCs to be heros and go where others fear to tread like the Withered Heath and Gundabad

Where might one get these Revised Journey Rules?

Here you go: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14117990/TOR%20rev...rneys%20III.pdf

Isn't Encumberance fatigue already rising, even under the new rules?

That's great, but while I was reading The Hobbit, Mirkwood seemed dangerous enough .

Not as far as I can tell. Travel Gear is still 1 in summer/spring and 2 in autumn/winter as far as I know and it's that that gets added when a Fatigue Test is failed.

Thank you VERY much!

Right, I've confused Encumberance and Travel Gear fatigue. (despite the confusion of the names, it seems that I played correctly). Thanks .

Hello Guys,

I calculated myself some different stats for a journey through mirkwood via the old forest road from east to west (in SUMMER).

IMPORTANT NOTE: Even if you are equipped with ponies or horses - " a company cannot advance trough woods or dense woods riding horses. The characters must dismount and proceed by leading their horses on foot". LM Page 32
There is no path in Mirkwood you can travel by horse or pony. The 13 Dwarves even had to leave their ponies behind at Forest Gate travelling the Elf Path!

1st Leg The Long Marshes: 2 hexes - hard terrain - Shadow lands

2nd Leg Mountains of Mirkwood: 13 hexes - severe Terrain (because any road in Mirkwood is regarded as severe terrain) - Dark Lands

3rd leg Western Mirkwood: 7 hexes - severe Terrain - Wildlands

Results:

1st Leg: 2 hexes in hard terrain count as 40 Miles

2nd Leg: 13 hexes in severe terrain count as 390 Miles

3rd Leg: 7 hexes severe terrain count as 210 Miles

Journey Calculator says 7 Checks for every Companion (1x TN 18, 4x TN 20, 2x TN 16) and the journey takes 29 Days.

In the new Rules:

1 for All Companions
1 for the Guide
1 for the Scout
1 for the Huntsman
1 for the Look-Out Man
1 for All Companions
1 for the Guide

This means 4 checks for the Guide, and 3 checks for every other player, BUT don`t miss the point, that players can loose endurance even if they do not roll for themselves.

So you have 7 possible occassions where players can loose endurance (same as in the old rules) but there is much less dice rolling.

Thats how I see the new rules.

PS: Sorry if my English is not perfect, but it is not my native language.

Greetings.

That makes no difference to what we're discussing. The ponies are still there sharing encumbrance loads and therefore fatigue. When we've been refering to them here it's with regard to halving the number of fatigue checks. From the revised rules:

That mentions nothing about it being due to travel time. In fact, speed is mentioned in the previous section (LM book, page 34) where riding means you can travel 40 miles per day rather than 20. Therefore, like you state this would not be allowed in Mirkwood. This is the bit that would be affected by what you stated above.

So, in your example, the number of fatigue tests is still halved from 7 to 4. You've just not been able to take advantage of travelling the 40 miles/day, which is why we've all only been using 20/day in our examples. Which means, your example matches mine - ie:

1 for All Companions
1 for the Guide
1 for the Scout
1 for the Huntsman

I've only just started with TOR, but are you saying that travelling aboard a boat down a river is just as taxing as struggling along an overgrown path through Mirkwood, with your pony in tow, as far as the rules are concerned?

If this is what the text actually says, is it in the spirit of the rules?

I would have thought that bringing your reluctant horse/pony along where there is no path except perhaps in places would make the journey more tiresome, not less, since you would have to make detours around all the obstacles that a person on foot can get past but not a laden horse/pony.

Okay, I see what you mean, but the whole thread is about the discussion of whether the new version of the travel rules are 'too easy' so to discuss it we need to remain consistent. The things that you're proposing are fine as addendums and further additions but they could just as easily be applied to the old rules so the disparities in difficulty between the two sets would remain the same. My post above was about Helghast interpreting the rules incorrectly so I was just posting to explain the error. Hope that explains things.

Thanks Rich, I thought though that the thread was at least partly about the fact that the revised rules seem to make a journey through Mirkwood specifically too easy. Helghast adressed this by not applying the '50% fatigue challenges due to boats or ponies' rule to a journey through severe pathless terrain – which I think is a relevant point. So, maybe Helghast isn't the one interpreting the rules incorrectly, and maybe there is no need to revise the revised rules after all?

@fradmo and helghast - If I understand correctly, you are both saying that if you don't apply the '50% fatigue challenges due to boats or ponies' when travelling through Mirkwood then the potential for accruing Fatigue in the new rules is the same as the old rules. Except for some variation due to which hero is making the rolls (which I'll ignore), I'd agree with this.

You may also be saying that your interpretation of the new rules is that you shouldn't apply the '50% fatigue rule' when travelling through Mirkwood (by extension of the same logic as for speed). Like Rich H, I hadn't read it this way but I can see your reasoning.

However, I feel it is somewhat premature to say this addresses the issue. There has been a lot of discussion about Fatigue on this thread but, as squid raised in the original post, "Also, as the tests were quite rare, we never rolled any Eyes of Sauron - so no random encounters, unfortunately!"

The potential for rolling Hazards is tied directly to the number of rolls so reducing the number of overall rolls makes the trip easier (i.e. less chance of danger). For a four hero fellowship the number of rolls drops from 28 to 13. So roughly halves the number of random encounters. Obviously, if we did not take your view on the use of ponies it would drop even further, to 7 rolls, which is significantly easier.

Interesting discussion.

To put it another way, would a journey by boat down the Celduin be too easy as well using the revised rules? Easier than by the book yes, but too easy?

Like Fictionaut states that's not the way I'd interpret it and I don't think the rules as written were addressing it in this way as I believe those rules replaced the "half travel encumbrance" rules for ponies found within the AB/LM books. The rules in the jorney about pathways in heavily forested areas (Mirkwood) and not being able to ride horses relate to their use in the Speed section (ie, can't ride at 40 miles/day so have to go on foot).

That's an excellent point as well. Reducing the number of rolls does a number of really major things:

1) Reduces the chance of hazards - a great shame as it's an interesting side of the game.

2) Allows for easier travel success.

Then, using the role chart, it also:

3) Moves from individual characters being responsible for accruing their own Travel Fatigue to being dependant on the character currently attempting the test.

4) Moves to an all or nothing (for the whole Fellowship) as to how Fatigue is accrued by them.

I actually don't like any of those as I think it removes granularity of character actions and results from the game, as well as making it too easy.

Yes, because the boat/pony rules would halve the number of fatigue tests.

I'd think you'd have to apply some common sense as well, i.e. you cannot bring a beast of burden along through an old, pathless forest with rocks and fallen trees all over the place and expect it to make your journey easier. That, and the owner of the horse would probably kill you.

It may be that the rules as written were not meant to be applied to speed only in this case.

I think it's more likely that they *are* to be applied to speed as they state you cannot ride a horse on such paths. There's no mention as to it affecting the "50% reduction in tests" rule as that's not in the original RAW. From my reading the new "50% reduction" replaces the rule in the RAW where a pony reduces the encumbrance of autumn/winter gear. That wasn't affected by traveling through Mirkwood so I don't see why this one should be either - ie, consitency in application.

I do think the new "50% reduction" rule is a bit of a daft one though in general and it's something that I'd get rid of completely if I were actually using these new rules. At the moment they just don't work as on most journey's not all travel roles are engaged equally and I don't think that's very good design.

It'd be nice if Francesco actually clarified this all though and commented on the apparent ease of the new rules so that we know.

fradmo, I feel you're over-stating this. I'm not an expert but I don't believe it's ridiculous to expect a beast of burden to make your journey easier in forest conditions. Mules were used in Burma during World War II to carry equipment and supplies through dense jungle. Their use wouldn't have made journeying through these conditions any faster than walking (hence the rule that there's no speed benefit from using beasts of burden in forested areas) or any less hazardous (which is an area where the new journey rules don't quite work for me) but it would be easier than carrying everything yourself (so I feel you would reasonably expect some fatigue reduction or increased carrying allowance - how much is open for debate).

Another excellent point Fictionaut. It backs up my feeling that the impact of the rules on ponies/horses when travelling through heavy forested areas is with regard to not benefiting from their riding speed. The fatigue bonuses due to them sharing the load (ie, either the old "halving encumbrance fatigue for autumn/winter traveling gear" or the new "halving number of fatigue tests") remain intact.

Possibly – IMO it doesn't sit right with the description of the forest of Mirkwood though, which is all we have to go by.

I tried the new rules strangely enough they galloped (pun intended) through Mirkwood and hardly noticed it.
Mules and ponies mean a person doesnt have to carry as much, all the armour and gear would be on them in normal circumstances, however in dangerous places then they would be worn and carried. packs etc would be on the mules so you dont have to carry as much, cant see how it would speed a person up that much, because at start and end of the day you still have to put the stuff on the animal and take it off. this all takes time

I'm not sure about this. As far as I remember, Bilbo&Co left their ponies at the forest gate since they were Beorn's animals, and not because they couldn't cross the forest.

And then, if you can't take ponies through Mirkwood, 'Don't leave the path' becomes quite unplayable.

Good points squid.

That's a great point but bear in mind that there are two separate points to consider here regarding ponies/horses:

1) The advantage they give due to increased speed (ie, 40 miles/day rather than the 20 you get on foot)

2) The advantage to halving the encumbrance for autumn/winter travel gear (RAW) or halving the number of fatigue tests (revised journey rules)

I don't think anyone's debating the first point and we're all in agreement that you can't ride your horse through Mirkwood, however there is some debate over the second point. I think it is still applicable as the rule is there to simulate the benefits in sharing encumbrance that a beast of burden gives, fradmo doesn't.