Hello
I am still studying TOR and like any one of you as I progress I come up with ideas. I also have a player asking about a Bard since he saw Song as a skill..

In Middle Earth, Song is a very important aspect. Many Chapters have a song or some verse.
I read in TOR where Song can be used to recover Hope during the Fellowship phase and could be useful during an encounter. But none of these would justify a tailored Bard type.

So I was curious to get your thoughts on a possible Bard type character that would have a contributing influence during a combat situation.

My first thoughts were that he could possible restore Hope during a combat, but that may bring imbalance to the delicate Hope system. Or possibly countering the influence of Fear.

Then I started looking at the possibility of countering Hate or instilling Fear in the enemy with a good Song skill.
I imagine a powerful Bard equipped with a special or magical instrument with the ability to route low level enemies before they could even engage so only the strongest members of the enemy could bring their powers to bear against the fellowship.

He would take a rearward stance if conditions permitted and play songs on an instrument during the combat. But he could also have some basic warrior skills if pressed into combat.

I just don't know enough about TOR to detail out any possible balanced Bard type. They would probably also need some custom Virtues and Rewards.

I know Tolkien did not specifically write about Bards, and they are a more of a Celtic tradition but I am interested in any possibilities to bring Song into play and if they are a reasonable possibility.

What do you think?

Rally Comrades. (AB p. 162)

IMHO, to touch Hope points economy is not a good idea.

I think a bard can be really helpful in a fight.
With a sword, a bow, a spear.

However, I do not see a bard having magical powers like in D&D.
One house rule that could work without a lot of problems : among the fight actions, you have Rally !, when you're in neutral stance (I think, I don't have the books here).
Maybe you could allow Rally ! to be used with the Song skill, but that would prevent the bard from attacking (hard to wield a sword and a music instrument).

Yeah, it's in Open Stance. And actually, RAW you can use Inspire or Song to this task.

A character could pick a musical instrument during his creation (AB p. 76), plus Scholar calling; Average in skills: Inspire, Song, Lore; Specialties: Folk-lore, Rhymes of Lore; and maybe Traits: Fair-spoken, Merry. A Musical Legacy (AB p. 57) background could be handy, as well.

There's actually a Special Feature (Or it may be a Trait, I get them mixed up) for Men of the Lake called 'Minstrelsy'. That would fit nicely

There are/were "bardic" traditions among the Saxons as well, and many passages in The Hobbit and LotR include descriptions of songs or minstrels singing and playing (heck, even the goblins are singing). The Lake Town sourcebook also has a new trait: minstrelsy.

And while I think minstrels are very important in northmen cultures, I too believe that when it comes to battle; they draw their sword like other adventurers. Only, the character may be more specialized toward using Sing and Lore and mingling with people. A few background options include/suggest a minstrel life IIRC. Such a character would make a good scholar or wanderer, and if you're willing to houserule, a few homebrewed cultural virtues could give minor, almost magical abilities based on the Herb Lore/Elven Magic/Broken Spells frame.

I could see "spells" giving bonuses on Corruption tests provoked by blighted lands, a "countersong" ability freeing an character from a Dreadful Spell, or a repertoire of songs making travelling less morose (similar to Twice-Bake Honey Cakes).

I could probably see the Bard having the ability to add +1 Hope to the Fellowship Pool up to it's max value, as a once per session benefit. This would require the Bard to perform in some manner such that they get to harness the goodwill of the listeners present. (I kind of see it as "leeching" off the emotional high the Bard generates in a crowd [whether friendly PCs, or NPCs, only; or, a mixed grouping] to inspire a target(s).)

Mechanically... not sure how to implement it, but maybe allowing attempts through out the session, but only once per scene. So the Bard has to put on a performance and if it is successful he gets the +1 Hope. Don't know if I would go with a harder TN or require a Extraordinary or better success.

The Fellowship Pool cannot be raised beyond it's maximum value in this way. So a Party of 6 characters (2 Hobbits, no Beornings) would have a max of 8. If a Bard played while the Pool was at 8 and succeeded, nothing would happen. If the Pool was at 3 and the Bard succeeded, the Pool would rise to 4. In either case the Bard cannot make another attempt within this same gaming session.

The idea here is it gives the Bard something akin to the ability the profession has fulfilled in other RPGs, but without being too disruptive of TORs mechanics. I've not tried this or given consideration to balance. Just kind of winged it.

Of course, a Bard's abilities kind of depends on what folks mean by Bard as there are bards, skalds, minstrels, troubadours, etc.

first of all i would use an alternate term than bard so as to not confuse it with the playable bard culture. i reccommend minstrel or skald depending on the culture.

second there is no way to make a bard "class" specifically withjn the rules as there are no classes per se. choose a race and a background. thus i suppose you could make it a culture and swap out a special ability. for hobbits and elves they could be minstels for beornings and bards they can be skalds (background).

i see all callings except slayer as appropriate. especially lore, wanderer, and treasure seeker.

one ability i can see afforded such a character is: when performing on open stance (ie using inspire or song) he can allow the use of hope points spent to roll 2 dice allowkng for the highe of the two results; but not both

bottom line you dont need a bard class to play a bardic character. the rules already exist to play a fighter, a barbarian, a ranger, an archer, a rogue, a bard and other arch types. you merely need to select the right game aspects and focus on the right skill features.

I'm curious as to why you mention Beornings here, Garn. Is there some rule regarding Beornings and the Fellowship Pool?

I believe the Twice Baked Honeycakes increase the Fellowship Pool

Gotcha. Thanks! I have a Beorning in my party (no Honeycakes), and I was wondering what I'd missed.

Ok, Beleg's answer not withstanding, I thought of a good response so I'm posting it anyway...

♪♫ I-I-I ain't got no Beo-or-nings! No Beornings! ♪♫

I tried to read Lawrence Welk's autobiography, but I couldn't get past chapters a-one and-a-two and-a.

I'm so very sorry about that. I've been fighting the urge to post that since the thread started, but I had a beer with dinner. Again, sorry.

Venger

Although Tolkien does not write specifically about Bards, there are actually quite a few references to them in his writings - the two that spring immediately to mind:

"Then a minstrel of Gondor stepped forward, and declared "Now hear my lay of Frodo of the Nine Fingers & the Ring of Doom" (From The Field of Cormallen chapter)

"Is it not said that no enemy has taken the Hornburg?" asked Aragorn. "Aye, so the minstrels say", said Eomer {from Helm's Deep chapter, I think)

Decipher's LOTRPG actually did have Bards as a class, and treated the subject quite well. The key to remember is that Bards are culturally specific - thus a minstrel of Gondor may only be that - a skilled teller of tales and player of music, whereas in Northmen cultures such as the Rohirrim a Bard was also the keeper of past history because few people could read. Just as in the European Middle Ages, bards/minstrels/troubadors excelled at a number of skills because they had better than average memory: lore, song, social skills such as Courtesy etc. are obvious - a 'bard' type PC is often the public spokesperson for the Fellowship and the first person spoken to by important NPCS.

As a Loremaster I see such characters as fulfilling very important roles, particularly in Encounters -a good bard can mean the difference between getting that mission or being locked in jail!

Robin S.

The two callings Loremaster and Wanderer kind of lend themselves to playing a bard/minstrel/skald/Storyteller type character.

I did not expect such varied and positive response. There is much to chew on regarding a character with musical abilities that could be of great use to an adventuring party.

TOR provides many option to play a game where hack n slash is not the means to an end, and skills and ranks can be earned by other avenues.

I am half way through the LM book!! yay, sure are some interesting ideas to digest

Thanks for the awesome replies!

Hi Venger,

Good to see that you have won your group around to Middle-earth gaming again -- or found a better group.

Your original suggestions sound distinctly like the abilities given to the Minstrel class in LOTRO. When morale is the currency lost in fights (instead of 'hit points', pints of blood, or whatever), then the Player-hero who can cheer his comrades up is the combat healer. It's a neat concept, but LOTRO took it too far.

The guys have already covered the other things I would say except no one has quite said this: "bard" is the culturally-specific Celtic name for what other peoples also had, and called scops, skalds, gleemen (OE: gleomen) etc. Tolkien doesn't use any of these terms (though it would have been iin character for him to have given a Northman singer or harper the personal name of "Skald").
Tolkien is consistent in always referring to "minstrels". So we should do so too.

One of the Player-heroes in my game is a dwarven minstrel -- an existing character imported from HârnMaster into TOR as soon as it came out. We bent the TOR rules a bit to give him Storytelling and Old Lore, and redistributed his skill points to increase his Inspire and Song, and didn't feel the need to go any further than that.
But I'd love it if something specific and tangible were to emerge from this discussion.

In fact, I just thought of one other thing that Minstrels might be able to do that the game mechanics as written don't touch.
Can their praises and satires be able to affect an individual's (temporary or effective) Standing rating?

Cheers,
--Os.

I'll add my voice, but I think it's all been said and I'm just going to be summarising.

A skald / minstrel character would likely be a wanderer or scholar calling. The skills would focus around Song, Inspire, Lore, Courtesy, Persuade, Riddle, Insight. Specialities that would fit well for them would be Old Lore, Folk-lore (for Wanderers), Herb-lore, Region-lore, or Story-telling. Good distinctive features could be Clever, Cunning, Fair, Fair-spoken, or Merry. They'd not have the magical skills of the D&D Bard class. However, certain racial virtues could give them advantages to healing (Woodmen) or the magical skills of the Dwarves (broken spells) or Wood Elves (Wood-elf magic or Speakers). In a fight, they'd pick up a sword like anyone else. They could use Rally Comrades to good effect. In the Fellowship Phase, they can Heal Corruption effectively.

I like that. It would probably take an organised campaign of tavern crawling and the song would have to have some basis in truth to stick well. Perhaps a number of successes before the satire or praise stands. It would be useful to boost the company's Standing through the telling of their adventures, or to hamper a powerful NPC.

Thanks OS A new group of guys are interested in exploring TOR, in fact expressed specifically to run TOR. Im hoping they will be good role players. We are tentatively scheduled to start in March!

I like this concept as well OS! If a minstrel could also help with the Standing of individuals in a community I think it would be an interesting and fulfilling role to play.

To add to what you mention, Its my understanding also that minstrels brought tales of the deeds of heroes to distant areas.

I'm wondering if it would be unbalancing to TOR if minstrel(s) were sent into a new community a few days or weeks ahead of the arrival of a company and sort of pave the way so to speak, to improve the reception the company might get upon their arrival. Maybe even start with a standing of 1 in that new communtiy, or just making the TN a little less.
Or on the other hand it might backfire and make it harder , depending on the political situation (and dice rolls) there!

(Imagines the company's minstrels being chased out of that community by a mob with pitchforks *chuckles*)

Interesting too about hampering/satirizing a powerful NPC, all sorts of good RP could come out of that. I'm imagining a failed roll might be played out in such a fashion... unintentional mocking or satirizing.

VALARIAN

Thanks for these suggestions.
Some great points were made by everyone, thanks for the replies!

PS. I can't help but think about the character Geoffrey Chaucer, in the movie "A Knights Tale", the destitute story teller/writer that revs up the crowds just before a tournament about "Sir Ulrich von Liechtenstein from Gelderland" lol

That was the same image that grew in my mind as we discussed this.