I'll cut to the chase - the various rewards seem horribly unbalanced. Some of them are quite good (noble armor, kings blade), others are simply gandalf-rune surprises. The reason I'm so down on these is that if you roll a gandalf-rune, you're probably going to do well anyways, so not only are these unpredictable, they may no have any real affect.

Am I way off base here? Do others see this, or am I missing something?

-Jeff

P.S. While I've commented on body and rewards now, I do want to say that I really love the game, and even if these items do prove out to be flaws as I play the game, they are still minor items to me compared to the coolness that is this game.

What if you looked at them as foundation items to attach other rewards too and then pass off to succesor characters. Would that change your opinion on the immediate value of the reward?

In your PS, I believe you struck the right cord so to speak. Certain rewards, just like certain traits only shine in the right story; or, at a minimum, they find a usefulness beyond providing color and depth.

After a couple of months with the game and a variety of game sessions, my observation is all the elements really coalesce and shine in a well-rounded adventure. This includes rewards I believe. So I think you are right. Not knowing your play-style, I do believe when considered from certain angles the rewards have an unbalanced affect on the game. Again, the same can be and has been said of traits.

So much rests on the LM to make all the bits and pieces of the game relevant, because the mechanics when considered strictly speaking don't provide rules that "forces" an equal affect from the various bits and pieces.

Except that doesn't work; rewards don't pass down, unless I've misunderstood something. The only thing a "heir" character gets is a (very small) additional amount of Character Customization XP, which cannot be used to buy Valour or Wisdom.

retired or dead characters don’t need their equipment. While it doesnt say it in the LMB I inferred that the items could be passed on as well. The sword or war gear of your predecessor continuing to fight against the shadow is a very heavy Tolkien theme. A campaign could also revolve around the items in use. Imagine the history of Gonodor as it related to the Horn of Gondor carried by the heir of the Steward.

Sure, you can carry it. You can blow it. But it'll have no in-game effect until you use a reward to "switch it on".

Alright, sure - you can most certainly play it that way in your games. But that's not how the rules work. What you are suggesting is a house rule, which (again) is completely 100% ok to use, but it's not really relevant to the discussion.

I'm pointing this out because, at least on most other game forums, it is customary for posters to state upfront what (if any) relevant house rules they are playing with / assuming are present when making a comment, because those can change things.

to bad Aragorn left his sword at home because it was someone elses first.

Did he? I thought he got Narsil reforged as Anduril and took it with him when the Company of the Ring left Rivendell. Up to then, IIRC, it was in Elrond's keeping as a token of surety when Aragorn left Rivendell to wander Middle Earth. Unless my memory of the book and appendixes completely fails me. The film, however, did it differently - with Elrond delivering a reforged sword to Aragorn at the Dunharrow camp near the Paths of the Dead.

See, this right here is what's known as a "troll post". I suggest you avoid sunlight.

Allowing rewards to just automatically pass down would make for some pretty cheesey character stunts: begin with Valor 2, wait until you hit 10 XP (raising valor to 3 along the way), get yourself killed in a stupid but non-shadowy way, and your new char comes in with any two rewards you like and an additional 2 customization XP; repeat if needed for maximum cheese. Yes, the resulting character is 20 XP behind, and missing out on advancement point benefits, but he's got the equivalent of Valor 5 for everything except fear tests.

Game balance matters; if it didn't, you wouldn't need rules to play.

My point is that legacy items are as much part of the characters in Tolkein as the actions of the characters themselves. The rules as written provide for the experience of elders to pass on in the game. My guess is that with a long campaign there is going to be power creep among the characters, which would fit in with a grand campaign as the characters face greater and greater evils in the War of the Ring and the ability to fight stronger opponents.

In any given party let’s say one character dies or retires. The new character to come in would be at a serious disadvantage in comparison to others in the fellowship. This weak sister issue will I believe be alleviated by the passing on of experience and items to the new character. No one said they automatically pass down to your new character; they would have to be tied in thematically like the passing of experience is done.

Bob chuck, I cannot find where it states that the extra experience points garnered from Heroic Heritage may not be used to purchase Valour or Wisdom. You couldn't give me a page and paragraph reference please?

Thanks


Halbarad

In this game, I interpret this as Aragorn gaining a point of valour leading the hobbits from Bree to Rivendell - for pete's sake, he faced down 5 ringwraiths single-handed on top of Amun Sul...if that ain't valour, nothing is.

Anyways, his reward during the fellowship phase was Anduril. Pretty straight-forward application of the rules, I think.

-Jeff

I don't think Bob said that.

I'll take his point and run with it a bit. Valour provides 3 items in-game:

1) Tolerance rating (which I think Bob forgot),
2) Fear tests,
3) Rewards.

Allowing someone to simply hand down a fully functional reward is like giving them a big edge in terms of valour. You can cheese it a bit by planning to play to valour 3 (pretty early in the game), then retiring and passing your 2 rewards to your next-of-kin.


My response to this, as the GM, is that while you can certainly pass an item along if the story fits, it does not have story immunity until you purchase it with your own rewards.

-Jeff

Jeff,
hear what you are saying. I wonder if any of these long duree issues came up in extended play testing?

the character would start off pretty strongly rewarded for sure. I am curious how this will all play out with longer campaigns.

Jaif, that is exactly what Bobchuck says in his first post on this topic. Am I to take it that this was a misinterpretation and that there is nothing to prevent these extra experience points from being spent on valour or wisdom?

I too would be concerned if heirlooms were being passed down from character to character without the appropriate experience being spent. It does appear that the rules, as they stand, cover the situation quite adequately though.

I think that the rather unusual way that this particular rules system works will probably deter the hardcore cheese players from playing anyway.

Ah, I missed that post. I can't find anything that says passed-down experience is limited to combat abilities.

Back on topic...

...I think my issue with the rewards is almost entirely with the "Gandalf rune gets better" rewards. Making that 1 in 12 situation better doesn't seem such a big deal to me. I really like the effects of the elven bow (+1 additional round of fire before combat), the hobbit's sword (all great successes are piercing attacks), and the beorning armor (+3 tolerance) as examples.

-Jeff

I think BobChuck's assertion comes from the following:

1) AB pg. 75, under the "Previous Experience" heading: "Players may now raise some of their skill levels..." and later, "Players have 10 points to spend on raising their skills." (emphasis mine)

2) AB pg. 75 lists the XP cost for purchasing skills with "previous experience" points, but only has tables for common skills and weapon skills.

However, this assertion is predicated upon the assumption that XP granted from Heroic Heritage (LB pg. 120), is added to the "Previous Experience" balance granted during character creation. My initial reaction is to agree, because this would make logical sense (it is, after all, previous experience). However, nowhere is this stated.

So, it is possible that the designers' intentions were to allow the Heroic Heritage XP to be spent after the "Previous Experience" stage of character generation (allowing the purchase of Valour and Wisdom ranks), but this would imply that Heroic Heritage XP could NOT be spent on Common Skills (because the "Previous Experience" stage is the only time you can spend XP on Common Skills, thereafter you can only spend AP on them!). Or, perhaps this was to be the time when Heroic Heritage characters could also buy ranks of Valour and Wisdom, along side of Common Skills. But without clarification from Francesco et al. we can only guess.

Every new character has previous experience. Not every character has a Heroic Heritage. I regard the two as completely separate.
I think that the root of the problem is that they are described as experience points. They might better be described as Heritage points to differentiate them from advancement points and normal experience points.
IMO a character is built under the normal procedure and the 'Heritage xps' should be applied at the end. Heritage might represent many different things from a quality longsword that is a family heirloom to being genetically predisposed to being better at fighting than those around you. I really think that calling these 'experience' points is a misnomer.
IMO Common skills, fighting skills , valour and wisdom should all be purchasable using these points.
I agree that clarification from C7/Francesco is needed on this subject.

This is the way to apply the Heroic Heritage Experience bonus. Sorry for the confusion!

Francesco

Thank you Francesco for the clarification!

Then, to be clear, you cannot spend Heritage XP on Common Skills?

Sorry Francesco, but I do think that a further clarification may be required.

My take on this is that the extra points of experience gained from having a Heroic Heritage are not treated the same as normal experience points (gained through play) and can be used to purchase Valour, Wisdom, fighting or common skills as desired by the player, subject to the agreement of the Loremaster.

Does that seem right? IMO it feels right.

I see your point, but as the rules stand, the Heroic Heritage bonus is a normal experience bonus, so you can spend it only to buy Valour, Wisdom and weapon skills ranks.

The reasoning behind this is that HH is meant to represent what the previous hero told the new hero about adventuring, and so it gives you a better chance to buy abilities you have only a partial access to when you create a new adventurer.

Francesco

Thanks Francesco.

IMHO, I think that this is the first thing that I disagree with in the system and think that you dropped the ball on. There are many of the common skills that a person could be better at because of lore passed down from father to son. An example being Hunting.
I still think they should have been called Heritage points instead of extra experience points as calling them experience points artificially limits the scope of their use.

Still, I can always house rule for my own games.


Once again, thank you.

It occurs to me that in order to simulate this you could award a new Heroic Heritage character with a number of Advancement Points equal to the HH XP bonus to do just this thing. I can't imagine it would be too imbalancing at all.

By the way, thanks Francesco for the clarification. Personally, I like the ruling you've designed As intended because a HH character can spend all of his character creation XP on Common skills and then use the HH bonus for weapon skills, Wisdom, and Valour. In fact, given the XP costs for Common Skills at creation, this is probably an optimal approach... You'll never get another chance to purchase Common skills so cheap ever again during the life of the character.

I personally don't have a problem with characters handing down their rewards as legacy items (or even better, what if they lost it during an adventure and the new character had to go find it). Even so, they are not really the "rewards" of the new character. They are plot items, and thus are free to be damaged/stolen/lost as determined by play and the Loremaster.