Do you have any balrog or demon maked...???...I need this creatures...

Short version. No.

Long version. Balrog meets party. Party suffers TPK. Roll up new characters.

It took one of the Istari to take down a balrog and he died in the process!

I have to agree with Garbar here. The only recorded instances of Balrogs being defeated involve a warrior of great prowess who, pretty much every time, dies in the process. Gandalf was one, Glorfindel another. So far as I know, these were the only people who 'survived' a battle to the death with a Balrog, and that was only with the intervention of the Valar

Feanor also killed fighting Balrogs.

Is there a reason you are looking to add these WMDs to your game?

LOL. Balrogs as WMD.

Winged Monsters of Destruction!

There are dragons, nâzguls,...How is the problem...??...there are a lot of enemies in Middle Earth...I like to have this enemies...

You could create your own demons probably. Gandalf says there are more evil and nameless things dwell in the depths of the earth so you could probably come up with something. Games Workshop has some miniatures for example like this (a Balrog in Arnor and a Dweller in Moria) you could check them for ideas and inspiration.

"There are dragons, nâzguls..."

Well, there is a bit of an order of magnitude between dragons, Nazgul, etc. and a Balrog. To use the movies as example "Swords are of no more use here! Run!" When a wizard of Gandalf's power says "Run!" Kind of gives an idea of the power of the beast in questions.

But, as has been said above with a little work you should be able to come up with something that resembles a Balrog.

Also you can use these "creatures" I think without breaking the lore so much. (We will break it of course but just a little )

Watcher like creatures for pools or little lakes in evil or dark environments. Like a big octopus or a reptile like fish could work.

Balrog like demons. Now this is tricky because you need to adjust their power according to your party. So they will be like lesser Balrogs. Like this: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1460127a
These guys could be some other forces of Melkor and perhaps some errors and incomplete work during the process of "breeding" Balrogs. They were sleeping for a very long time after their master defeated and the party awakens them.

I don't think you should add a full scale dragon but drakes are great. You could customise a drake too like a frost or ice drake with powers like frost-breath or a fire drake with fire-breath and burning skin. A frost drake could live in northern parts like Forochel and a fire drake could live in the depths of a mountain. Or a cave drake that's just a big monster without fancy powers like the fire or frost drakes.

You could also create some demonish giant vampire bats. Spiders like Shelob or werewolfs.

I see nothing wrong with statting out a Balrog if you like. Depending upon your style of play (and campaign lethality) having a Balrog hanging around could be interesting.

If I remember correctly, OD&D gave a Balrog 10 hit dice and a dragon a range of 5-10 hit dice. That might suggest that a Balrog would be more powerful than a dragon, perhaps twice as powerful. That would at least give you a possible starting point.

If I get a chance, I'll look at some other LotR wargames and RPGs to see how they rate Balrogs compared to other creatures.

Feanor was mortally wounded by Balrogs. There is no positive evidence he killed any of these creatures. Given the later emphasis on this point, it is IMO also unlikely he did so. The Lost Tales tell of some Balrog-bashing (the House of the Hammer, led by Rog), though the Balrogs in this early version (The Fall of Gondolin) have almost nothing in common (power-wise) with the LotR-era Balrogs. Even so, we have two Noldor testified as slayers of Balrog(s): Glorfindel and Ecthelion of the Fountain - and both didn't survive their combats. If you give the LT higher ranking, throw the Man Tuor (son of Huor, husband of Idril Celebrindal and father of Earendil) in. The only other positive evidence is the well-known one of Gandalf.

Cheers
Tolwen

EDIT: MERP had the Balrog of Moria fully statted out. For basic MERP and RM (not counting the numerous RM extensions which greatly enhanced character abilities and firepower), he was de facto invincible for player-types - as it should be (not counting extremely lucky rolls). IIRC, the LotRRPG had the Balrog statted as well.

He was attacked by multiple Balrogs and I find it logically to think Feanor killed some of them...because he is Feanor.

It is possible, though looking at the textual evidence it is IMO unlikely. Later on in the histories, it is explicitly stated that no one ever before killed one (before the Fall of Gondolin; though this is in LT), so I lean toward that he might have wounded one, but not killed.

In judging likelihood of things, it is IMO always best to first have a close look at the available textual evidence and from there make extrapolations.

Cheers
Tolwen

Why do you need a Balrog?

Look at the stats of the Mountain Troll, that thing is more than a match for a group of characters. I think it could pretty much squish a character a turn.

I'm fairly sure that you could make an adventure centred around trying to stop a single Mountain Troll from destroying a settlement. Those things are scary.

Poosticks, out of curiosity, have you used a Mountain Troll in your game? I was intending to pitch my players against one but I have no idea how well they'll do

Not used a Mountain Troll, but they have gone up against a Hill Troll, Cave Troll and Snow Troll (TfW).

Getting rid of their Endurance is not difficult, but wounding them is.

Snow and Cave particularly so, as their Armour is underlined, so you add the Attribute level to armour rolls automatically.

3d armour with an attribute of 7 is hard to get through!

Francesco suggested a tweak which I will apply in the future.

http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...t=0&#entry23540

No I haven't used a Mountain troll in a game yet.

Just by looking at them though you can see how hard they are.

It's not just the 4d armour that is scary it's the 4d +9 crush attack for 18 damage, 27 if it uses Horrible Strength. That's insta-splat for some characters.

(oh and the Thing of Terror ability is pretty damn good as well).

It's basically suicide taking one of these things on in a direct fight. (Even with Francesco's tweak).

That's what I mean about an adventure designed around trying to stop one of these behemoths without confronting it directly. Traps, delays, diversions etc.

But if a Mountain Troll is that hard, how hard would a Balrog be?

You think that's suicide! Turn to page 150 of Tales from Wilderland!

Put Fellowship of the Ring DVD in the player, skip to the fight with the Cave Troll...

That was a nasty fight and the orcs were only a distraction!

Balrog's are demigod like creatures, which is why it took a demigod like Gandalf to take it down.

I don't actually have Tales from Wilderland yet.

That's what I mean about the Balrog, if the Mountain Trolls stats are that high, then to stat out a Balrog (as the Op requested) would be borderline silly. No group of characters would be able to take one on.

This is probably the clearest explanatory statement of the potential problem of using a Balrog in TOR.

Whether the creature could be statted-up is moot. With a good look at Tolkien's writings and sufficient knowledge of the TOR Adversaries section anyone could theoretically produce the creature.

The problem is once created, who is going to take responsibility for killing it? Because unless you're playing a First Age, Noldor-, Valar-, or Evil-based campaign, there is no one alive in Middle-earth capable of defeating the creature. Nor is there much that any single player, or group of players, can do against the creature. (Yes, I am excluding the Istari because we know Gandalf can just barely defeat a Balrog; all the other Wizards fail in their task so there is a good chance they cannot succeed against a Balrog. Saruman is the most likely to succeed simply because he's the most powerful.)

Heck, an entire clan of dwarfs nearly committed ... Lemming-cide (hmm, is there a single word to express where suicide and genocide intersect?) ... trying to recover Moria. Ok, they get some points for delaying it's total usurpation of Moria for a couple of years - but they still failed & bailed.

I'm all for statting up a Balrog - in about 3-5 years. When we're all getting a bit desperate for gaming material and we've plumbed the entire range of creatures we can reasonably graft onto the setting while maintaining its unique flavor. Also, it would be just before SG/C7's license expired, so we might all be willing to ignore the Monty Hall-ness of it all just to have a nice, complete set of Bestiary stats.

Bit of a threadjack here, so sorry.

But did you ever buy the Lords of Middle Earth books for ICE's MERP/Rolemaster?

Now they had some seriously nasty creatures in here! Iirc, Sauron was 240th level compared to Gandalf at 35th (50th as Gandalf the White).

Don't recall the Balrog off the top of my head, but it would be in the same area as Gandalf.

End of threadjack!

Oooooold memories...

Actually I think the Balrog was level 80 or 90. But someone who still owns the book will probably prove me wrong.

/wolf

Nope... Level 66.... Googled it.

/wolf

Now you've done it!

You googled it... so you found it and that means it found you!

Yeah I'm aware of the MERP* stats for Sauron and the big B and several other hard nuts.

Same in giving stats to the big guys in Call Cthulhu

Same as giving stats for the gods in D&D.

I kind of get the statting up of Darth Vader and the Emperor in starwars, gives you something to compare to when coming up with your own villians.

but for the most part I do wonder what's the point in statting up the big guns?


*Though I must admit I didn't play MERP's much, the system gave me a headache.

MERP gave everyone a headache!

Stick to the basic MERP book with handful of tables and you were ok, but switch to Rolemaster with a different combat table for every weapon and the headache started! Not joking there, some nights I got home with an actual headache from gaming and that can't be good!

But it was Middle Earth! That was important!

And for many the fact that it wasn't D&D was important.

Don't worry! Not going to start ranting about editions or comparing one game system to another! There are plenty of forums for that.

There are games I like and games I don't like!

The important thing is... if you're having fun, doesn't matter what the game is!

"Nope... Level 66.... Googled it."

Actually the Balrog in the MERP book is lvl 60, 400 hits, 60 DB, 240 OB and hugh crit type. It says in the description that "even dragons fear the Balrogs...Gandalf struggled for 10 days with the Balrog of Moria before winning."

Dragons are listed as lvl 25, 260 hits, 40 DB ,175 OB, hugh crit type.

Yeah, but in TOR he can take a breather now and again, recovering his Heart in Endurance

Don't think he'll get chance for a nights sleep to recover Heart +2 though!

Probably why he "died", sheer exhaustion.

And IIRC, Ungoliant was a level 500 mage.

MERP was truly AD&D in middle earth.

Are you telling me the Internet LIED?!?



Inconceivable!

/wolf

Garbar,

According to my printing, the "Balrog of Moria" is listed as "Level: 36 (60)" -- LoMe Vol 1, p34 (I think their were multiple editions, not sure which this one is ATM). Other printings and sources may vary.


Poosticks7,

The point of statting up the BBEG's follows two rules of thumb:

• It acts as a "high-tide", or absolute maximum level threshold, which no other Adversary should ever exceed while staying within the legitimate confines of a pre-existing setting (ie, canon).
  
• It makes creating new and powerful, but "realistically" leveled creatures within the legitimate confines of the pre-existing setting, possible.

Knowing these things you could now create your own unique Middle-earth Variant World wherein, after the fall of Sauron, some other major evil being appeared - The Enemy version 3.0, out of the Endless East or the Subjugated South. Imagine it, a man, perhaps a Black Numenorean or some pitiful creature, Gollum-like, wracked with pain and endless servitude to the evil might of another. Suddenly that evil and all it's works are cast down, destroyed, and the hands holding the whip against you as well. Many of these creatures simply wither and fade, leaving their dessicated mortal forms intact... as well as all of the magical items that they used to evil ends.

So how would you write this up? Easy. Just look up Sauron and see what he might reasonably possess in the way of magic items. Now create a bunch of less powerful but highly unique magical items. Drop them on the floor of some dungeon or other evil lair and let the inmates riot, snatching up goodies without rhyme or reason. Now watch as magical side-effects interact and challenge each other. Or, far more dangerously, don't interact or remain quiescent until some later time when these items combine forces against their wearer. Making them a puppet to a greater evil once again... How else is Morgoth to return to Middle-earth? (que Vincent Price evil, maniacal laughter!)

I'm not sure how many people actually played MERP. While I cannot speak for everyone, I know that I bought it for the setting and highly original material, not for the game system. I've always assumed this was true for a substantial number of other purchasers of the MERP product line.

Really the most appropriate analogy would be to liken Tolkien fans to addicts seeking their next fix. MERP provided just enough of the good stuff to keep us from suffering serious bouts of Middle-earth withdrawal. We didn't mind the occasional re-release if it meant we got it in a purer form - although given an option we preferred something more to sweeten the deal.

I picked up the paperback edition of MERP first, then the Hardback Collector's Edition (which I think was the last print of the game). I ran a couple of games of MERP for my group years ago, as did another memeber who had all the supplements for not only MERP but RM as well. He was really good at running that system. We had a lot of fun with both systems.

That is probably where the discrepency is in the stats, the one I quoted above are problably the most "recent" for MERP. I am not 100% sure, but I think I also read somewhere that the stats I gave are for "junior" Balrogs and that the Balrog of Moria was even more powerful...but, again I am not sure of this.

Okay I kind of see your point Garn about statting up the big guns but I still think it's a bit silly.

For example let's say the games designers statted up the Balrog for one of their releases. People would look at it and either complain that it wasn't hard enough or that it was way too hard, or it should have this ability or it shouldn't have this ability.

If they made it as hard as they really should using the previous monsters as a scale, then it would be impossible to survive. The Balrog could only be used as a plot device not as an adversary. They may as well save the space and write - unless you are knocking around with an Istari or a Noldo lord then its TPK.

Oh, I totally agree about the Balrog being useless as a functional Adversary that could be used in a Middle-earth campaign. Well, with the possible exception of using it in a high level MERP campaign; one of the few systems where it is relatively possible to go toe-to-toe with the creature.

Although in retrospect I don't think it would be too difficult to stat-up a Balrog for TOR. I think six sentences should be able to produce a completely playable Balrog Adversary.

Garn, would those sentences be something along the lines of "If. You. See. It. Then. Run."?

It's behind me isn't it?

While I understand the theory behind what you're saying -- and totally agree that there will always be naysayers who vocalize the "It's too powerful" or "it's too weak" game -- I think part of any RPG is that it gives you the tools to play the game you want within the confines of its structure.

The "structure" is Middle Earth RPG for TOR, specifically the Third Age. As there's a Balrog about, I'd argue it should (eventually) be statted up, for the reasons Garn suggests.

Even if we disagree at that point, the next logical extension is "Okay, who's the most powerful guy that *should* be statted up?" No one's going to agree on the answer, so if the game designers do the work for us, those that want to use it, can, those that don't, get good guidelines, and those that think it's a waste of printing space, can find any number of ways to get the work at a better value to them (which may include waiting for it to come out secondhand, or not buy it at all, among other options).

Everyone's happy ;-)

I'm kinda playing Devil's Advocate a bit here, as I think a Balrog is above the power-level that the game is meant to handle at this point. But as soon as "this point" finds itself with a book of more advanced/higher-level characters (Rangers on up through playing someone Gandalf-like), then that's when the Balrog should appear statted up. Or, if a derivative game that's all First Age RPGing comes out, then maybe that's the time.

Beleg & Beran,
Actually, I meant a real write-up. Shorthand version, but still real.


Neuronphaser,
I understand and unfortunately agree. Sooner or later TOR is going to have to provide stats for the Balrog or some other creature that will result in a "split-decision" among the fans. Some will love it, some will hate it. Resulting in lots of cries that SG/C7 has just ruined the game, etc. It's inevitable.

IMO, the best way to handle this whole situation is a bit counter-intuitive.

Start out by creating the BBEG's first, before any other creatures are generated. Then create the generic monsters, named bosses, semi-unique and any remaining unique creatures needed to expand the bestiary. Then go back and modify the BBEG's since some of the design work for the other creatures prompted the creation of different powers or abilities that might better suit the BBEG's use in the setting and/or functionality.

When done, place the BBEG's in a locked safe. Disavow all knowledge of their existence. Make everyone working on the project NDA-up, with a legal contract threatening such dire and vile consequences that Cthulhu starts giggling like a schoolgirl and asks for you lawyer's business card - cause they sound "cute". Forget these creature stats exist.

A year before the license agreement with MeE expires, open the safe, pull the BBEG's out and take a long hard look at them. In retrospect they're probably just a bit pathetic today. The game system has grown, rules have changed and new powers, spells and abilities have come into play. Update the BBEG's according to existing standards and any new Tolkien material released in the ensuing years.

Go pester MeE. Determine if it seems likely the license will be extended or if it will be allowed to lapse. What happens next depends entirely on this decision.

• If lapsing, print an all-inclusive bestiary including the BBEG's. There will be rejoicing - and angry mobs - in the streets. But as the product line is effectively dead anyway, it doesn't matter. There is somewhere between 6-9 months to sell off all game stock - just enough time.
• If extended, throw the whole thing back into the safe, sign more NDA's, etc. (Yes, Cthulhu, you can date my lawyers if you're really interested. Just stop giggling... it's disquieting.)