That speaks to good game design. Something I feel RPGs get the shaft on, while board games and card games (from experienced companies, at least) don't have this trouble as often.

Funny that Francesco is most well known as a board game designer, too...

;-)

It's funny too that player bases split so decisively (online anyway) when it comes to things like that, too. Of all types of games in existence RPGs are precisely the ones that say "Don't use stuff you don't like,' the most, and so long as the game isn't filled with stuff you don't like, then logically, you can and should just ignore the crap.

I'm ranting now, so I'll stop.

My first thought in statting a Balrog would be: how do you make it nigh-unkillable, but have interesting weaknesses that can be exploited to make fighting it (and running away from it) interesting?

MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

/wolf

Ok, I didn't say anything about weaknesses. I just said it could be statted-up very easily. Lookie here, it's a complete guess on my part, but I think it gets the job done:

Balrog
Attribute Level: 20
Endurance: 200
Hate: 25
Parry, Armor, Common Skills, Weapon Skills: Values are Moot - PC attacks fail; Balrog attacks hit.
Special Abilities: Bewilder, Commanding voice, Denizen of the Dark, Dreadful Spell (Hopeless Caress: flaming whip, -1 Hope per strike), Foul Reek, Great Leap, Great Size, Hatred (Everything), Hideous Toughness, Horrible Strength, No Quarter, Seize victim, Strike Fear, Thick Hide, Thing of Terror. (Yes, you have to check each round and despite that the Balrog can still inflict another fear test on you; gigantic creatures of Shadow & Flame just have a tendency to cause the spontaneous emptying of bladders.)

See, that wasn't hard at all. And done in six sentences. (Run on sentences still count.)

Now I cannot swear that it's exactly canon, but as your Company is being toyed with by something that can quite literally insta-kill them, is there really any point to knowing exactly how well they go splat?

Or you could go:

Balrog
Abilities
Go to town with it. It's the Balrog, the Pc's are dead.

I'd say creatures of that level of evil have unlimited Hate, don't you think? I don't imagine a Balrog being less aggressive after a while, and an exhausted Balrog feels weird.

One thing I disagree with Garn (here we go already) surely the attacks would hit. They just wouldn't do damage. Or the weapons would melt. Or disappear. Or burst into flame, then a dog, then a bunny rabbit, then decapitate the player character (okay, that last one was a bit too Monty Python, apologies)

I'd be tempted to say it was Huge rather than Great Size... requiring 3 wounds to take it down.

WAIT!!!

What the hell?

We're statting up the impossible to kill monster!!!!

Must stop now!

Do something safer.

Like Midgewater Marshes Midges. We know they like hobbit... Samwise says so!

I concur with the other comments about Balrogs as TPK & probably won't use one, but again, if they work for your game...

Let's hope that our comments don't disuade C7 from writing a Moria module on down the road

They wielded a variety of weapons & powers. Gothmog, for example, slew Fingon with a black axe, & another Balrog cast a thong of fire about him in the process. Yikes.

That said, however, if you do write a Balrog up, don't forget that Tolkien wrote in a letter following his revisions that they numbered no more than seven.

It seems that no more than a handful survived the First Age in Middle-earth. Gothmog & another fell at Gondolin, & the Host of the West destroyed Balrogs (plural) at The Great Battle. This leaves no more than two or three into the Third Age.

Please note, however, that The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien & The Silmarillion apparently fall outside C7's license, so we probably won't see this sort of thing from C7.

So long as they don't make the traps as deadly as the ones in the ICE Moria campaign pack!

I was running the game and those traps were the most lethal I have seen (outside Tomb of Horrors perhaps ).

Given a choice of those traps or the Balrog... I reckon the odds of surviving a fight with the Balrog were higher... even if you were only armed with a spoon!

Perhaps "unkillables" like Balrog should be statted up thusly:


Balrog
*Cannot ambush the company, cannot gain initiative, cannot receive Combat Advantage.

*Player heroes receive at minimum 1 volley. Not that it will do them any good, unless armed with a particularly powerful artifact of some kind applicable to slowing/hindering Balrogs.

*Defeating the Balrog: The player heroes should have at least one of the following options to overcome an encounter with the Balrog.
1. Run. Automatically successful, unless other enemies are about. If other enemies interfere, give the player heroes a time limit in rounds (1d6) of combat in which they can engage enemies before the Balrog arrives and kills them.
2. Summon Patron. If a Patron character is reasonably able to be at hand, said Patron will have some means of slowing the Balrog long enough for the player heroes to escape.
3. Upgrade Artifact. Spending a point of Hope might allow an already established enchanted item among the player heroes' possessions to possess a hitherto unknown power that will spirit them away or shield them from the Balrog's wrath.
4. There is no 4.

Poosticks7,
Actually my first draft had "Abilities: All of them" except I remembered that one of the abilities is Fear of Fire - which would be a bit bizarre for what amounts to a Fire Elemental.


Yusei,
I agree, but we've still got bigger BBEG's* pending at this point and I didn't want to go too far overboard.

*: These are: Saruman, Sauron, Morgoth, potentially the Blue Wizards, assorted Aberrations and anything off the map of Middle-earth.


Beleg,
Puh-tay-toe, pah-tah-toe.


Garbar,
You may be right, Huge might be better. BTW, thanks for taking Forward Stance. I'll just be back here, in Rearward Stance, inside Lothlorien.


Mim,
Moria is and always has been a phenomenal portion of Middle-earth that no aficionado would allow to be ignored. Therefore no RPG company is going to avoid milking that cash cow. The question becomes whether or not they can do the greatest clan and settlement of dwarfs within Middle-earth properly.

As to how many Balrogs remain, you're correct that Tolkien changed the numbers later on, but if that source were to fall outside of the license, and the larger numbered source was within the license, SG/C7 could have a field day with it. As LM's we would gnash our teeth a bit. Whimper and cry for mommy a bit... and then establish a flashback scene wherein the players take possession of pregenerated characters controlling a historic re-enactment. Basically what LotRO did showing the awakening of the Balrog.


Neuronphaser,
You know, some of that might work! Especially #2, I can see it now...

Player 1: O.M.G.!
Player 2: It's the Balrog, isn't it?
Player 3: Crap! We can't survive this! What the heck are we going to do now?
Player 1: Wait, it is the Balrog! So we get to Summon Patron!
Player 2: Summon Patron! We use Summon Patron!
Loremaster: Alright, Barliman Butterbur appears before you in his cotton slacks, soft leather shoes, wife-beater t-shirt and a grubbily stained apron. He arrives polishing a mug on his apron, but within a moment the mug crashes to the floor and shatters into pieces.
Butterbur: Wha- what am I doin' here?
Players: Each player looks at each of the others, realizing a bit late that they recovered Shadow while in Rivendell, therefore having access to no other Patron than Butterbur - who isn't even armed. Being considerate players its impossible for them to allow this to continue.
Player 1: Ummm....
Player 2: Yeah, I didn't think about that either.
Player 3: It's like this Butterbur, we're in a spot of trouble. We've gone and woken up this old man who is really cranky when he doesn't get enough sleep. Anyway, he wants us so we've got to leave quick. He'll come by in a rush, looking for us, but if you could distract him for a bit, we'll have time to get away and this old guy should just settle right down again. Here, take my extra dagger. Just in case he's in a particularly nasty mood and you need to defend yourself.
Player 1: Ummm...
Player 2: Thanks Butterbur (slapping the man on the back), you're a lifesaver. Really.
Player 1: Ummm...
Player 3: Stares at Player 1 and then back in the direction of the steadily increasing glow of firelight.
Player 1: Uh.... yeah, thanks Butterbur. Bye.
Players: Each of the players waves goodbye to the man - for about a second - before running for their lives.

Indeed I am in forward stance... I am facing forwards... the balrog is behind me and I just shot you in the foot with an arrow, pinning you to the ground!

I don't have to outrun the balrog... I only have to outrun you!

This confused me once and I had to read a bit through the rulebook a few years ago to decipher what 36 (60) meant. If I remember correctly, the dual statting was for the Adventure game and MERP. So the Balrog would have been level 36 in the Adventure game, but level 60 in MERP.

Otherwise, "I have no memory of this place."

I ran MERP lots. For years.
I never felt the need to introduce anyone to even the threat of the balrog (though I did have to remind the players once every few months that their PCs didn't even know that any balrog had survived the War of Wrath).

IIRC, the balrog was 60th level for purposes of RRs (~saving throws), but cast its own magic as a mere 36th level Mage.

Cheers,
--Os.

It's funny the only villians that have me saying "Holy #%^*!" when they show up are from the RM system; The Balrog in MERP (ok not specific to RM but it is in that system it becomes a true ball buster) and the Black Reaver from Gen. RM.

And Call of Cthulhu. They statted up every damned deity (uselessly, mainly).
On a lighter, yet related, side: Tunnels & Trolls (my first and loved).
In the Arena of Khazan you can end fighting a Shoggoth.
MV 1000, if I remember correctly: damage was 100d6 + 500

Never forget the Tarrasque!

But you are probably right... Rolemaster made some nasty creatures, but keeping a character alive long enough to take on such a challenge was... nigh on impossible.

The first campaign I ran, a dwarf became paralysed from the neck down in his second adventure and that takes some serious healing!

However, the crit tables were fun to read, even if it was an E striking your character for a fatal blow.

Had CoC 3rd Ed IIRC, never played it for some reason.

"Never forget the Tarrasque!"

We did fight a Tarrasque in our (very) long running D&D campaign back in high school (my first campaign actually) and I seem to remember it didn't really give us too bad a run. The only held breath moment was when the Wizard cast a Wish spell to keep the thing dead...I don't think we could have killed it twice.

In a Call of Cthulhu game, the party once summoned Azathoth to take out an asylum of evil!

I know... not a good idea... but the PC's were less evil (just) than the cultists!

I'm sure there was something about a chance that he would keep doubling in size every round and dice were on a roll.

I think eventually he expanded to a size large enough to take out the solar system.

Unfortunately, someone pointed that he was not immune to damage, so eventually his health would have been reduced to the point where he was dismissed. Retcon came into effect.

Personally, I prefer the 'swallowed the solar system' ending to the campaign!

Elder Gods should never have been started, as has been said before. They show up... you die!

"...the party once summoned Azathoth..."

That is right up there with trying to create a CME in a box. Looks cool on paper, but quickly becomes a "what was I thinking?!" situation on execution.

Oh, no! Now you've done it! You've opened up that age old question: do balrogs have wings??

What does the acronym stand for? Several possibilities exist.

Coronal Mass Ejection.

The Grenadier mini from Sauron's Dark Ones box set that I bought in the dim and distant past has wings!

I think that so powerful enemies are not meant to be adversaries but only plot devices. Think for a minute: what has the balrog to gain by fighting the characters that a horde of orcs and wargs cannot gain for him?

Of course, everyone is free to play the game as he likes, but please remember that balrogs, as well as istari, are in fact Maia: incarnated spirits of Arda, not mindless brutes. There are hosts of lesser enemies that can be deployed against the characters whitout having to resort to those super-heavy hitters.

This is for me alike to turning TOR to a Middle-Earth version of a D&D Monty Haul campaign. I'm not saying that it is intrinsically bad, but it's not the type of game I like.

You will find that has been the general theme of this thread. Not convinced anyone is seriously considering statting up a balrog.

This thread has devolved into nostalgia over impossible enemies and general silliness.

But that's not necessarily a bad thing

You're saying the Balrog is not a bad thing? ... Would you say that to it's face?

/wolf

I would if the face happened to be attached to a dead balrog after Gandalf had just kicked his fiery-shadow ass!

I'm fairly sure the Balrog only got off his big fiery arse to confront the Fellowship because he sensed Gandalf (or some might argue the ring).

You could imagine a group of Pc's bravely heading into Moria after learning of Durin's Bane, to take down the shadowy entity.

They wander the halls of Moria searching for him for days upon days and the Balrog does not showing up.

PC1 "Are we sure there is a Balrog here?"
PC2 "Yes that was the general consensus of the council of the wise."
PC3 "Well where is it?"
PC1 "Sleeping?"
PC3 "We can't keep wandering around these gloomy halls for ever, we're running out of food."
PC4 "How dare you call the halls of my forefather's gloomy."
PC3 "Sorry my friend."

Many more days pass.

PC1 "He's not here is he."

Have you ever seen the Watermelon-crushing antics of an American comedian called Gallagher? I think the Balrog gets to enjoy the PC's go SPLAT! With itty-bitty gooey bits dribbling down the walls.

I don't honestly want the Balrog or any of the other major powers, good or evil, to be provided stats like any normal Adversary. They are and should remain mostly a story device within a TOR campaign. Ultimately however I do think that fans will provide a detailed write-up simply because someone is going to view it as a challenge. That is why I posted my version - to see if I could actually do it in 6 sentences. I don't think any of us really took the critter seriously though*.

* But in a pinch, I think someone might use these stats if nothing else is available.

I think the original poster was hoping for Balrog stats, actually. I read his post as being quite sincere and above board on the issue.

The problem with statting the Balrog is a lot like the problem that D&D had once it created stats for gods in some supplements. If it has stats, I can fight it. (D&D got around this by inventing the 'avatar' as in "you aren't actually fighting Zeus, that would be absurd, but you could fight his avatar."

On the other hand, if a character wants to go toe-to-toe with something like a dragon or Balrog maybe having legit stats isn't a bad idea. If the player knows what the Balrog's stats are and still chooses to attack it, that's his problem. I once had a D&D player whose character was down to one hit point and he attacked an uninjured dragon. Then got mad when he died. At least if there are stats the Loremaster can point to the stats and say "see!" instead of the player feeling like the LM picked on him for some reason.

True, but the thread has since rambled off into the weird and wonderful.

I do stick with my first post in this thread... the Balrog is just too powerful for typical TOR characters. It's not like a dragon with a weak spot that can be exploited.

He had other creatures in the title. It would be nice to have stats for like a poisonous snake dogs, barrow wights war horses and a giant eagle too. There aren't any stats for monsters. I guess I'm spoiled on D&D and Pathfinder with its multiple creatures.
Even the old Decipher book had all those

Mike

I think a major issue between TOR and other Tolkien RPGs is one of combat expectations. I'm not particularly familiar with CODA, but with MERP there was a sense that any creature could be engaged in combat and the characters had a chance of success. However, TOR's design has different game mechanics and a storytelling focus that makes a dungeon crawl type of campaign less feasible. Not impossible, but actually requiring more work on an LM's part to imitate.

These differences in design mean that in TOR more of the high and low ends of the creature spectrum become narrative elements rather than real combat adversaries with a stat block. On a rare occasion stats might be needed - if for nothing more than a general idea of a creature's relative strength. These creatures are going to die or retreat (or do whatever they're supposed to) on queue, maybe after a certain number of successful attacks strike the creature or whatever the story dictates.

This also means that variants of normal creatures are not going to be handled as separate, unique creatures, with individual write-ups. Instead they use a standard stat block with whatever change is needed to account for any special attack or defense the creature is known to possess. Nothing more is really required as most of the story ideas, adventure seeds, and history are stripped from the creature write-ups and placed in the setting.


The recent requests for stats brings this issue to light. Please note that I am not focusing on these requests because they are 'right' or 'wrong' - just that they are the most recent request - period. And in thinking about this request, the issue here came into sharper focus for me.

The request for a dog, illustrates this point. In most instances the LM is going to handle any potential combat in a narrative form. Otherwise you're talking about killing someone's dog - definitely not the actions of a Hero. The only dogs I can specifically recall in Middle-earth are Farmer Maggot's. Why would anyone want to kill Farmer Maggot's dogs? (Note that I haven't bothered to do any research here and could be ignoring a perfectly appropriate dog target that it would be Heroic to kill.)

So instead of giving you stats for Creatures A-Z, it makes more sense to suggest the use of Generic Creature Forms. Basically this is a universal stat block that applies to a wide range of normal animals and creatures based on a specific body type. They do not apply to magical or unique creatures. You can use the generic form as is, or with an optional bit of info, create a variant creature without having to start from scratch. Just list the name and whatever changes need to be made to the base creature info. Most of the changes are probably a slight alteration of the info given here. Or, the addition of a Called Shot (preferably) or a Special Ability.

In this manner I would think the following body types might be required at some point: Biped (forelimbs), Biped (hindlimbs), Gelatinous, Winged Flier, Elemental, Demon (?), Wyrm, Dragon, Plant. There might be other types, I haven't fully considered this aspect of the idea.


Generic Creature Form - The Quadruped:
Attribute Level: 0-2
Endurance: 1-8
Hate: 0-2
Attack: 1-3
Parry: 0-1
Called Shot: None.
Special Abilities: None.

This Creature Form applies to any and all four-legged, land-based creature of any size. While generally intended for mammals, it can also be used for reptiles, certain dinosaurs (that is, any 4 legged ones) and anything else that seems relevant here. It might also be used for an aquatic creature with four legs, but none immediately spring to mind.

Possible Variants:
Tiny (mice, lemmings), Small (skunk, house cat), Medium (dogs, ponies), Large (horse, carnivorous cats, alligator), Huge (elephant) and Gargantuan (Mumakil).


Generic Creature Form - The Snake/Worm:
Attribute Level: 0-2
Endurance: 1-5
Hate: 0-1
Attack: 0-2
Parry: 0-1
Called Shot: None.
Special Abilities: None.

This Creature Form applies to any and all limbless, land-based creature of any size, whether of the snake (dry skinned) or worm (wet skinned) types. While generally intended for reptiles, amphibians, annelids, etc. It specifically excludes wyrms - that is, giant worms related to dragons - as well as magical or unique creatures such as the Ouroroboros. This might also be used for aquatic creatures without limbs, such as water snakes, eels, leaches, etc.

For more realism with regards to poisons, create individual affects and add them as specific Called Shots rather than the generic poisoning used below.

Here is a bit of the Snake/Worm Variants:
Asp: add Called Shot: Lethal Bite. Python:add Special Ability: Seize Victim and Crush Victim. Ok, maybe add +1-2 End since it's a bigger snake. Black Mamba? Same as the Asp. Cobra? Ditto.