"What reason do I have to get a Patron?"

So I get this question from one of my players, and my best response is that "they drive the story" and allow you to work with some of the big players in the area. That's all fine and dandy, but some of my less Tolkien and Story-inclined players find this a wash, and would rather try to focus on a mechanical benefit.

I came up with the following, and I'm also looking for if there's anything other people are doing. Here's a template:

Patron Name: Self-explanatory
Minor Benefit: Players get this benefit just for pursuing the patron and associating with them. Power is on par with a small bonus in specific circumstance.
Favored Patron Requirements: Players must maintain this to claim the Major Benefit. May only have one Major Benefit at any time, but many Minor Benefits due to association.
Major Benefit:Players get this benefit for maintaining requirements. Power is on par with a Virtue.

Here's an example using Beorn, w/o any flavor text behind the abilities.
Patron Name: Beorn
Minor Benefit: Language of Beasts - Players are always considered to have horses / ponies when in Moderate or easier terrain
Favored Patron Requirements: Players must subsist on only a diet of cream and honey AND have at least 3 Valour
Major Benefit: Ursine Prowess - When calculating your Damage rating, use your Favoured Body instead of Body.

I'm thinking that there's a lot of patrons you could use, and you probably don't want players treating them like Pokemon (gotta catch them all!). Go nuts with critique if you want, or tell me if you've been doing anything.

Not used any patrons in my campaign yet, but as written they don't seem to be much use to the players.

They are basically a source of plot for the LM, but it's not like I won't have Beorn give them a quest just because he's not a patron.

I like what you are suggesting, but would be unlikely to allow them more than one set of 'Patron Benefits' at a time as that might unbalance the game.

I will be interested to see what you and other forumites have to say on your idea.

Mechanically I make my character's Patrons available without a social encounter.

If Beorn is you Patron, he will see you when you request (as long as you don't abuse it) and will give you aid. Having Beorn as a Patron would give you a benefit in any social encounter with Beornings, similar to gaining his "blessing" (TfW p.48).

You may still have to roll to convince him to do something for you, but you don't have to get over the hurdle of trust.

I wouldn't make it any more mechanical than that. Having someone that trusts you and you can trust to provide hospitality and protection should be a big deal in the Wilderland. Especially when that someone is a powerful leader.

Like everything else you've suggested but I think this bit would fall down if your PCs have had previous positive encounters with such an NPC and therefore developed a relationship with them. Having to overcome trust again... and again... and again... with every encounter with a non-patron would feel a little forced or artificial to me.

My players' patron is Gloin. So far I used it for some discounts with dwarf merchants in Esgaroth

Fair enough. I don't mean that every NPC always needs to be approached with a Social Encounter nor do I play that way. I only force them when it seems reasonable. My characters interact with plenty of NPCs that they never have had to "encounter" using the rules.

I guess to put it in game terms, if a horde of orcs were following the fellowship I would expect their Patron to always give them shelter. But a non Patron may take a Persuasion roll or full on social encounter.

I see it almost like a form of Fealty, though that word carries some baggage that doesn't apply or possibly a form of Oath, which Tolkien was big on. My point is, there is a definite level of trust between a character and a Patron that would not exist between MOST other PCs.

My general point was that I wouldn't over formalize the rules of what a Patron means. Otherwise you get boxed in as a Lore Master.

Farinal's example is perfect.

As an aside, to build a stable of NPCs and a bit of history among the players I start my campaigns by having each player create one (or two for small groups) NPC that they know through one of the other players. Sometimes it's a name and occupation and sometimes more. This approach gives me a group of NPCs to use as plot devices and the players a bit of background on their characters.

My thought is to use Patrons to spread one's Standing around. Normally it's only among one's own people, a Patron extends it to a culture outside one's own. Not that some players are likely to be particularly enthused about Standing either. Having a Patron permits access to resources the company wouldn't otherwise have. Need to consult some musty old tome found only in the archive of some obscure scholar? Having the scholar or his boss as a Patron makes things much easier. Need to borrow a company of bowmen to harass the flanks of an approaching army? An easier task again, if you have their commander or his commander as a Patron.

Survival.

Cause if I was Beorn, Bard, Thranduil, Galadriel, Elrond, Denethor, Theoden, or any of the others, and a pack of hysterical adventurers ran up to my gates crying about attacking orcs, I would respond appropriately. I would yell back down, "Get away with you now! You're obviously spies of the Enemy come to my walls with a bit of mummery to gain access. Once inside you'll cut our throats and open the gates for your ugly friends. Get away I say!"

If the players choose to hang around for more than a minute without obviously preparing to move off, the Patron in question indicates the handiest means of defense be put into action against the players. Archers, boiling oil, rocks, withdrawal of the drawbridge... whatever.

The availability of a Sanctuary is particularly important once folks become weary, wounded, start running out of Hope or gaining too many Shadow Points. But if they don't want any place to recover them, that is their option. Don't feel obligated to save their worthless hides. They've earned an ignominious death.

[I'm feeling a bit negative today, thus the reversed - nasty, not nice - nature of this post. I get that way sometimes.]

Obviously, bearing in mind your last sentence in this post...

I'm not sure I'd have Beorn, Bard, Thranduil, Galadriel, Elrond, or Theoden turn a fellowship of men/elves/dwarves/hobbits away automatically as 'spies of the enemy'. It would take a failed persuasion roll (perhaps more than one) for me to do that. ... And then to turn boiling oil, shoot arrows, and so on at them.

I believe places other than sanctuaries allow chracters to recover these things. Sanctuaries just allow players two rolls for Heal Corruption instead of just one, for instance. An 'opened' Sanctuary allows the players to freely enter it but other places can be visited and when entered allow the PCs to rest, etc. But the OP was discussing Patrons so this is neither here nor there, really.

I hope you don't GM in such moods!

Thanks for clarifying that. I thought you may not have explicitly meant what you put originally so thought it worth asking.

Cool, I like the ideas here, and it makes me pine for a more story-oriented group. I'm just trying to come up with something engaging to all my players, and giving a minor mechanical benefit, then adding a mechanical trigger and a roleplaying cost for a major benefit, seemed like a good way to engage them in that action.

Because of the way money works, I don't think that giving my players a discount on anything will have the effect I desire. Since money isn't hashed out to great effect in the book, I haven't really had a lot of dealings with it, and so I think it would either detract or distract from our current play. I like the idea though - just the shoe doesn't fit the group.

Again, I like the idea of Patrons, but I'm still talking about less story, more mechanical effects of them. I have players who hail from fairly standard D&D backgrounds, and while they like the game, it's the kind of modification I can make that I feel would help translate that like to love. Just a little carrot on a stick.

I guess I should also say that I'm tentatively building Sanctuary benefits too, on a lesser scale. If the players open The Easterly Inn as a Sanctuary, then what reason do they have to open Beorn's Home, for example?

Anyway, I went ahead and made some Patron benefits for him, along with Radagast, Gloin, Bard, Gandalf and Saruman. I'll see what response I get from the group and whether or not it unbalances things.

Actually Rich most of the nasty in that post was meant to point out that if the players cannot be bothered with making friends, those same people don't have to act like friends when things start going against the players.

You obtain patrons so that you can gain the full benefit of their knowledge, skill and community's resources.

Sorry, your post wasn't clear to me.

To be a friend in the game an NPC doesn't have to be made a Patron (which is the question your post was responding to - ie, "What reason do I have to get a Patron?"). Players' PCs can be friendly to other characters without making them Patrons. The OP's about Patrons and the benefits they give - to my mind they are very specifically mentors to the PCs (like you've suggested with access to resources etc); friends are a much wider group of characters so apologies but I'm not really sure what point you were making above.

That's certainly how I think they're useful. I like the idea of giving mechnical bonuses as well though - in one of the adventures doesn't Radagast give the PCs use of magic? Only scanned some of the adventures in TfW so I don't quite remember.

FunkBGR... I like your ideas and think that some small mechanical bonuses are a great idea. I'd certainly be interested in reading what other ideas you have for other Patrons.

Yeah, there's a couple of parts of Tales from the Wilderland that got me thinking - the Easterly Inn being a Sanctuary, Radagast's magic to help the party, or in the adventure right before it mentions that they might even want Thranduil as a Patron.

I'll post the others I came up with after I tidy the wording up a bit, it's just ideas at the moment.

I agree that acquiring a Patron need some mechanical benefit (like the others Fellowship Phase activities).

Maybe some experience bonus?
For example: having Radagast as a patron give the heroes 1 experience point and 1d6 advancement points each winter, since they partake of his wisdom.

Corvo - I definitely would be motivated to acquire a Patron with that, and so would my players. I think that might break the mood for some of my story-oriented guys, but definitely try it out and see what happens!

Here's the rest of what I put together. It's not really checked for much balance or anything, so let me know your thoughts.

Gloin
Dwarfen Endurance: The Fatigue from Autumn/Winter travel rolls is 1 instead of 2.
Favoured Patron Requirements: Members of the fellowship must always bargain for a better deal AND have at least two points in Valour
The Ways of the Dwarves: When rolling to Heal Corruption, you may roll the feat die twice and take the better result.


Radagast
Whispers from the Woods: All Lore rolls during a Journey’s beginning allow you to roll the feat die twice and take the better die result
Favoured Patron Requirements: Members of the fellowship must maintain a reverence for all things nature AND have at least two points in Wisdom
Friend of Flora and Fauna: Travel rolls have their TN reduced by 2 for all Journeys in Wilderland

King Bard of Dale
Fly True: Roll the feat die twice and take the better die during the first Opening Volley of any combat
Favoured Patron Requirements: Members of the fellowship must swear an oath to protect the interests of Men-folk in the Dale AND have at least three points in Valour
All the King’s Men: Automatically gain +1 die of Combat Advantage to use in any combat with another member of your Fellowship

Thranduil
Stealth of the Woodlands: When rolling Stealth to Ambush foes, roll the feat die twice and take the better result to determine whether you successfully Ambush them
Favoured Patron Requirements: Members of the fellowship must keep the ways of the Elves away from the prying eyes of Men and Dwarves, AND have at least three points in Wisdom
In the Shadow of the Woods: Corruption tests for travelling through blighted lands have their TN reduced by 2 for all Journeys in Wilderlands

Gandalf
Clever Spells (and Fireworks!): You may flee combat from any Stance, instead of just rearward
Favoured Patron Requirements: Members of the fellowship must approach all discussion with reason and compassion, AND have at least four points in Wisdom
Wisdom of the Grey Pilgrim: Your Fellowship may invoke this once during an Encounter for an auto-success on a roll

Saruman
Whispers in the Dark: You may gain a point of temporary Shadow to treat the Eye of Sauron as a Rune of Gandalf for one roll.
Favoured Patron Requirements: Members of the fellowship must seek knowledge and lore above all else AND have at least four points in Wisdom
Dreadful Insight: Whenever you spend a point of Hope, you may also add your current Shadow to your die roll.

FunkBGR,

I think your ideas are very interesting and flavorful.
Maybe bit too powerful for my style, I will happily use them with some minor limitation (such as "this can be used only once per season/adventure/etc". Gandalf's patronage: I'm looking at you).
What I really like are the benefits of Saruman's patronage: simply clever

Heck, the more I think about it, more I like your rules FunkBGR.

A strong mechanical benefit for patronage is an incentive for the heroes to taking sides in the game world, something players often shy away from.
One of the recurring problems in rpg is, in my opinion, the tendency of the players to becomes loose cannons (or wandering murder-hobos, in rpg.net-talk).
Rules as these encourage the players to align themselves with some major power, to become the king's men, or Beorn's followers, etc, and this feel suitably medieval to me.

FunkBGR
Interesting ideas. Not sure about the balance, but always issues with new rules and only play test reveals flaws.

However, my players may be interested in taking a patron with incentives like that.

One question...

Does the fellowship take a patron or an individual with those rules?

Some interesting ideas here.

I'm not sure if they are balanced (though I know it's a work in progress).

The wording in All The King's Men seems to imply you get the bonus when you are fighting against a member of your fellowship.

I do have a question - Do you intend for these benefits to be open knowledge for the players (before they earn them)? I'm just thinking that you may get meta-game motivation rather than story based. eg. 'Let's not help Beorn his patron benefits suck'. (Just useing him as an example).

You may be better keeping the actually benefits hidden but just tell them that there are mechanical benefits if they take the time to get patronage from one of the movers and shakers of Wilderland.


@Corvo - Wandering Murder-hobos, I've never come across that term, but it SO sums up an average adventuring party.

Yeah, like I said, they're definitely not balanced - they're just jotting down some ideas during a bored day at work.

I'm trying to come up with a small mechanical benefit for seeking out the Patron. My intent is to allow players to acquire as many minor benefits as needed, to give 'oomph' of seeking Patrons out - ("We'd like an audience with the King of Dale", etc.)

Next, I wanted some RP goal, followed by a mechanical goal. I tried to just write down something that I felt related to the character, but also a Valour/Wisdom requirement because it's vaguely a measure of power.

Last, I figured they could get a major benefit by having the Patron be favored, and that that's something you get by deciding as a group, "Hey, we really want to be working with Radagast". My intent wasn't for them to have more than one.

I'm definitely interested in hearing more thoughts or balancing ideas if anyone has them. I.E. - All the Kings Men - my intent was that you get 1 die to use when you fight a battle with Companions, in addition to regular Battle rolls. Flavor as needed, but I think it'd help some of my story-lacking players come up with "Well, hey, let's train together" and then I can ask, "What all are you doing?" and go from there.

Thanks for the feedback all - let me know if you have further thoughts!

By the by - I am keeping the benefits hidden, for what it's worth. My group just made a Patron of Radagast, and I told them that entry benefit, so they're interested in pursuing others.

I changed All the Kings' Men in my notes - I never thought of it like that, so thanks for pointing out to me that it sounds player versus player! It reads now:
All the King’s Men: Gain +1 die of Combat Advantage to use in any combat you are with your Fellowship against enemies.

In my (temporarily 'hiatused') game we haven't engaged with the patronage issue yet.

If the main function of a Patron is to offer an 'in' to the next adventure, I can totally sympathise with players objecting to having to expend a benefit just to get to go on the next adventure -- when everyone at the table knows it's got to happen anyway.

But this discussion makes me think I will halfway prefer for Patrons to offer only a vague benefit. This is TOR, in which Speciality Traits and Distinctive Features are deliberately left vague with the intention that this leaves room for the group to be creative with what benefits they might offer in various circumstances. Maybe we should look to have Patrons functioning the same way. Players suggest how the patronage of one of the Wizards or Beorn or whoever might have a positive effect, and the Loremaster rules on them on a case-by-case basis, according to how they want their game to work.

I don't see how Gloin can give those under his patronage any benefit of his dwarven constitution!
But this immediately inspired the thought that a Patron might often/usually have a large Lore skill to offer to anyone planning a Journey departing from -- or deliberately travelling via -- the Patron's .
And of course their Lore skill (etc.) could be an asset in all sorts of other situations.

Without taxing myself to think about the power/game balance implications of this, I like the idea that spending a Fellowship Phase hanging out with one of several possible Patrons could be good on the Heal Corruption front. And right-thinking and wonderful as most of the Patron figures are, they can't afford to spend a season hanging out with anyone and everyone in Middle-earth who's copped a Shadow Point. Their patronage therefore reflects status: in adopting the Player-Hero they're saying they're prepared invest an amount of 'quality time' in them that they can't afford for just anyone.

Ah. You got that one already.

In general, FunkBGR, I like the flavour that your suggestions introduce, but I find them a bit too abstracted. The associations are right, but I can't see how 'in real life' the Patron's influence could affect the Player-Heroes' performances even when they are separated by the whole of Wilderland.

Cheers!
--Os.

Not sure if this route has already been explored, but very minor -- but potentially often-used -- benefits that Patrons could directly influence would be:

Standing (perhaps breaking the rule of Standing in cultures other than your own?)

Flat +1 to +3 bonuses towards Tolerance during social Encounters with allies of the Patron

Treasure could be "bumped up" when dealing directly with a Patron or mercantile groups associated with a Patron

Flat modifiers to Lore rolls involving the initial prep of a Journey

I'd also like to think you could work some stuff in with "temporary" Sanctuaries in times of need or something like that, but I suspect that may be stepping on the toes of the Fellowship Phase a bit too much.