As I wrote elsewhere, I don't feel I'm a M-e master... but TOR is such a wonderful game that I want to try my hand at it. This is the campaign I'm envisioning.
Premise: none of my players intend to play an elf. This suits me fine, and I want to take an human/dwarf-centric approach to the game.

Northern Middle-earth in the Third Age always looked to me akin to a post-apocalyptic world. Pockets of civilizations separated by hundreds of miles of barren, desolated lands. Rare are the travelers (dwarves, rangers) and often looked upon with suspicion.
The Free Peoples are divided and mistrustful of each other: even the patronage of someone like Gandalf isn't sufficient to grant the dwarves safe passage through the land of Thranduil, while the lure of Smaug's treasure is enough to bring elves, dwarves and men on the brink of war.
But now, after centuries spent in hiding in fear of the Dragon and the Necromancer, the land is free: the apocalypse is over, it's time to rebuilt the world.

This is the situation of the Wilderland 2941-6 TA, as I see it. My idea for a campaign is to have a group of heroes striving to bring together the divided peoples of this land, and fighting to keep the Shadow at bay after the Darkening in 2951.
Pretty standard TOR campaign, as I understand.
Where I differ from the canon, I think, is the degree of division I envision among the Free Peoples: let me explain.

These pockets of civilization survived for centuries surrounded by foul enemies. Given the military strenght and cohesion demonstrated by the goblins in 2941, I think the orcs and the wargs have already destroyed every vulnerable village in these lands generations ago, and those towns that survived till present time should be real stongholds. Strong enough or hidden enough to withstand the enemy: the Lamp of Balthi protect Woodmen Town, Mountain Hall is built in an impregnable position, Rhosgobel is defended by the Brown Wizard, Esgaroth is built on the water, etc.

But, beyond military threat, the men of the Wilderland faced infiltration and disinformation by Necromancer's agents, bent on sowing suspicion and enmity among the Free Peoples. This, and what is found at page 11 of the Adventures Book: “The spirits of Elves, Men and Dwarves were embittered and made miserable by the growing darkness of Mirkwood and the ever-present menace of the great Dragon of Erebor”.

As I see it, the Bardings and the Dwarves are really dreaming of binding the Free Peoples in a great alliance. It's natural, after all: five years ago they were... nothing, just ruins. Just a dream. Now they are glorious kingdoms with a bright future ahead, and they know that a dream can be made true.
But their prospective allies have different agendas, and different fears.

The Bardings look upon the Woodmen as natural allies, “brothers across the green sea”. But the Woodmen are wary of losing their precious freedom: they lived alone and without kings for... well, forever. Why change now? Do they really need an alliance, now that the goblins are defeated? Can they trust these kings, so fond of stone and steel and gold? “Now the Bardings call us friends and allies, tomorrow we risk becoming their slaves...”.
Sure the Barding and the Dwarves need the Woodmen's help to open up the trade route to the west: many Woodmen doubt they need something from Bard and Dain...

Even more reluctant, in my imagination, are the elves.
The Dwarves and the Bardings are new actors on the political scene. Young, optimistic, “expansionistic” kingdoms, eager to make their presence known in these lands. It's no big surprise that old Thranduil look upon them with some caution: he's been the only king in these lands for centuries, are these new upstarts possible rivals to the silvan kingdom?
Yes, they can be. The Bardings speak about uniting the Woodmen (A-Book, p. 37), and this doesn't sit well with the elven political agenda, because Thranduil want to claim the whole forest as his own (this I surmise from what will happen in the future: after the fall of Sauron, Thranduil and Celeborn claim Mirkwood and divide it among their kingdoms). The elves remember when Greenwood the Great was their realm, and they want it back. Many centuries they have waited: now the Necromancer is gone, the shadow is weak... and these humans start talking about building their kingdom across the forest that belong to the elves. No way.
Thranduil is a sworn enemy of the shadow, and don't want to wage war on men and dwarves... but he cannot forfeit what he think belong to his people.

Surely Thranduil can accept the Woodmen live in his forest, but they have to accept he's the rightful ruler of Mirkwood. For the Woodmen, on the other hand, Thranduil was the king of the forest... some 18 centuries ago. The Woodmen inhabited this woods for as long as memory goes, and while Thranduil retreated in the north, they lived in the shadow of Dol Guldur. In their eyes, the elves forfeited the right to claim Mirkwood as their.

And Beorn? Well, he's a bit of an enigma for me. The hermit became a chieftain, but looks like he's lacking a political “vision” or agenda.

I think that after the defeat of 2941 the Orcs fell to squabbling among themselves. No more a great army, but many small warbands (small enough for a bunch of Heroes to defeat .
Same for the Easterling I suppose: divided and squabbling raiders.

This is the political canvas where I want to draw my story.
I imagine the Heroes (Bardings, Dwarves, Woodmen, maybe Hobbit) will spend the 2946-51 years building trust between Woodmen and Bardings/Dwarves, and reclaiming the Old Forest Road, since Thranduil will deny them the use of the Elf Path. Lot of spiders, I think.

There are some question I'm still unable to answer:

1-Where, and how, lived the Bardings (the old Dalish in exile)? Simple villages in the Upper Marches? If so, how did they resist enslavement by the Easterling?

2-Woodland Hall is very near to Goblin Town. What stopped the Orcs from destrying it? Did they pay tribute? Or where they infiltrated by the Necromancer's agents?

3-Beorn: someone got interesting ideas about him in such context?

4-Ehm... who was the Necromancer for these peoples? We know he really was Sauron, but actually... what was he doing here? Stealing children? Waywarding travelers? Mustering armies of Wargs? My players are bound to ask me: “what have my father told me about this big bad guy? What was done to my people?”. Everybody in Mirkwood fear him, but I don't know the extent of his crimes

Corvo,

I want to say that I truly like your vision of Middle-Earth. I think that you were able to articulate something that I felt but could not solidify into cogent thought. I also equally like the title. One thing I wish to comment on is this statement :...because Thranduil want to claim the whole forest as his own (this I surmise from what will happen in the future: after the fall of Sauron, Thranduil and Celeborn claim Mirkwood and divide it among their kingdoms)

It was actually split three ways. Thranduil in the northern part, the Woodmen in the middle and Celeborn in East Lorien in southern section.

I will give some thought to your 4 questions and respond later.

HN

1-Where, and how, lived the Bardings (the old Dalish in exile)? Simple villages in the Upper Marches? If so, how did they resist enslavement by the Easterling?


I always assumed near Esgaroth or maybe in small trading posts on the "wine road" to Dorwinion.


2-Woodland Hall is very near to Goblin Town. What stopped the Orcs from destrying it? Did they pay tribute? Or where they infiltrated by the Necromancer's agents?

Well, the High pass has been protected by Beorn and Mountain Hall is there also. Plus the people Beorn leads had to come from somewhere so maybe they were a deterrent also. So that is at least three possible obstacles. Additionally, unless there is some great evil pressing their will passing large bodies of water does not seem to be something orcs do often.



3-Beorn: someone got interesting ideas about him in such context? I see him enjoying the benefits of trade of as evidenced by the high tolls paid to cross the High Pass, yet no formal alliance for free people.

4-Ehm... who was the Necromancer for these peoples? We know he really was Sauron, but actually... what was he doing here? Stealing children? Waywarding travelers? Mustering armies of Wargs? My players are bound to ask me: “what have my father told me about this big bad guy? What was done to my people?”. Everybody in Mirkwood fear him, but I don't know the extent of his crimes

I think all of of your possibilities sound good. He is the great unknown. Think of all the tales of Bogey Men and such and make it more dark and oppressing as the tales are probably real.

I don't know if this will help, but I just wrote this up yesterday for one of my 2 campaigns. The lake I reference (Mornael) is the large one to the east of Rhosgobel on TOR map. I could not find any other map that had it on it, so I figured it was up for grabs to describe, so to speak. Too, I created a town to exist there (Ost-Edlothiad).

I hope some may find this of use....

After the final war against Morgoth at the end of the First Age, Oropher and Amdír, Sindarin Elves of Doriath, declined to depart Middle-earth and opted instead to settle in places where Silvan Elves of Nandorin descent lived. Oropher settled in Greenwood the Great and was made lord by those Silvan Elves. He established his capital at Amon Lanc. Amdír settled west of Oropher’s realm, across the Anduin River, in the realm of Lórinand (later called Lothlórien) where he was made lord by those Silvan Elves. He established his capital at Caras Galadhon. Years later, King Oropher and King Amdír answered the summons of High King Gil-galad and joined with the Last Alliance of Elves and Men as they marched down the Anduin to Dagorlad. Both armies of Silvan Elves were lightly armed. In the Battle of Dagorlad, Oropher and Amdír’s armies fought valiantly, but both kings were slain with the greater part of their people: Oropher when he charged into battle too early and Amdír when he and his troops were cut off from their allies in marshland. After Sauron was defeated, Thranduil, Oropher’s son and heir, returned with the remainder of his people to the Greenwood and Amroth, Amdír’s son and heir, returned with the remainder of his people to Lórinand. While beaten, their armies were still large enough that the Orcs hiding in secret in the Misty Mountains did not dare attack them.

Around the year III 1050, a shadow fell upon the Greenwood the Great, and men began to call it Mirkwood. The shadow was the power of Sauron who, under a concealed identity, established himself at the hill-fortress of Dol Guldur on Amon Lanc. Mirkwood became a haunted place inhabited with many dark and savage things. Thranduil’s Elves, now a diminished and wary people and having already abandoned Amon Lanc, retreated north of the Old Forest Road, and entrenched themselves beyond the Mountains of Mirkwood. The Old Forest Road, which crossed the forest east to west, was mostly unusable because of its proximity to Dol Guldur. So, Thranduil’s Elves made a path farther to the north, the Elf-Path, which ends in the marshes south of the Long Lake of Esgaroth (i.e., Laketown).

Ost-Edlothiad was a Silvan Elf town along the north-south trade route through Greenwood the Great, a waypoint between Amon Lanc and the Old Forest Road. After the shadow came to Greenwood, Ost-Edlothiad endured years of constant assaults from the ever-increasing foul inhabitants of the surrounding lands. Eventually, it was abandoned and fell into shadow. At some point in the intervening centuries, an earthquake created a tear in the earth and formed the basin of Mornael (Sindarin: ‘black lake’) and flooded the ruined town.

I have a tough planned encounter there for the group, a rehash of something I ran a few years ago with another group, and one which I've referenced in other posts but not a lot of details. If there is interest, I will post it, as well. Parts were borrowed from a Decipher LotR RPG adventure journal ... I used quite a bit from that journal ... good stuff!

This post has been edited by Throrsgold on Mar 12 2012, 12:02 AM

Thanks for the post Throrsgold. I do have a question.

[/I] The shadow was the power of Sauron who, under a concealed identity, established himself at the hill-fortress of Dol Guldur on Amon Lanc. Mirkwood became a haunted place inhabited with many dark and savage things. Thranduil’s Elves, now a diminished and wary people, abandoned Amon Lanc, retreated north of the Old Forest Road, and entrenched themselves beyond the Mountains of Mirkwood[I]

The way it is written it seems like Sauron "attacked" Amon Lanc while the elves still inhabited the hill. I thought that Sauron "moved in" after Thranduil abandoned Amon Lanc.

You're quite correct! I wrote this at my store, noticed the discrepancy, and intended on fixing it, and obviously didn't.

It should (probably) read ...

Thranduil’s Elves, now a diminished and wary people and having already abandoned Amon Lanc, retreated north of the Old Forest Road, and entrenched....

I will fix it in the first post, too.

Glad to be of service and again thanks for the write up.

Thank you, I was not aware. I'll take it as a sign that the brave efforts of my players to grant recognition for the Woodmen's cause bore fruit

"Interested, I'm", said Yoda

Hi Hoplitenomad. Thank you for taking your time to answer my questions

Same as me. When I asked myself where my Barding Hero lived till '41, Esgaroth was the natural answer. But now there is *a lot* of people in Dale. Too much for Esgaroth and some "small trading post".

Where did they all live till now? And how did they avoid being enslaved/hunted down/assimilated by the Easterlings? 180 years passed since Dale's destruction, some seven generations... and now here they are again. How?

Let me put it another way. In my starting pitch I imagined the Free Peoples hiding in their "strongholds" to weather out the “apocalypse” (Smaug, Necromancer, orc armies, etc). Where are the Dalish strongholds? Where did they hide till five years ago?

It's not an idle question: when I start throwing spiders/orcs/wargs at my players, they are bound to ask me "Master, what's the culturally accepted way to deal with these traditional critters?"

Very well ... here you go!

As usual, I invite feedback and comments, especially on the "Sense" Quality I used on some of the weapons.

THE RUINS OF OST-EDLOTHIAD

While within the ruins, an Awareness test will reveal strange vines in the underbrush. Should they stop to examine the vines, a Lore test will determine that the vines are actually dirty spider webs! A success reveals a camouflaged trap-door in the ground made of webbing and debris, looking like the ground around it, just as an ambushing Attercop springs out to attack. A great success reveals the same, but both parties instead act simultaneously. An exceptional success reveals the same, but the Attercop is surprised. Any player-hero rolling an Eye of Sauron plunges through the ground into a large spider web and is immediately set upon by the Attercop. This pit trap is, in fact, the spiral staircase entrance to the large basement of a once grand Elven dwelling, presently inhabited by a nest of Spiders of Mirkwood.

Spider’s Nest

The nest is comprised of a 6 Attercops and 20 Spiderlings.

Within the nest, propped up near the base of the spiral staircase (to possibly frighten intruders) is the body of a troll, turned to stone. This troll seemingly fell into the nest at some point in the distant past, resulting in the breaking off of one of its arms.

Within the large basement, the spiders constructed walls out of webbing, creating passageways. These web walls are relatively hard (Endurance 12), but burn easily when exposed to direct fire; however, they inhibit or resist the spread of fire. A successful TN16 Awareness test reveals that there are openings throughout these walls that are winding tunnels that allow the Spiderlings to cross through and attack from any point along them. They are not large enough to allow the Attercops this same advantage.

Whenever the player-heroes turn down a web way or have to choose between two directions at a fork or intersection, several Spiderlings will sneak up behind them and web closed the passageway. A successful Awareness test allows the player-hero to hear the scrabbling of their many legs in the web tunnels behind them.

Deep in the nest, webbed up, is the desiccated corpse of the nest mother … a very large Great Spider, too large to fit through any of the ruins’ entrances. The corpse shows signs of grievous, edged-weapon wounds that ultimately led to the horrid creature’s death.

If the player-heroes retreat from the nest, having caused any spider deaths, threats may be shouted after them as they flee. “Murderers! Thieves! Elves and Elf-Friends! We have marked your faces! You still must leave this cursed land!”

There are various items of treasure to be found with their previous owners desiccated remains in the webbing:

• 68 Treasure Points in gems, gold, silver and copper coins. The coins are much more recent than those found in the pit.
• A dead Dwarf in a mail shirt with a great axe clutched firmly in its desiccated hand. The mail shirt possesses the Qualities of Close-fitting 2 (Encumbrance: 12; Protection: 3d+2). The great axe possesses the Qualities of Keen 3 (Damage: 9; Edge: 8; Injury: 20; Encumbrance: 4) – this is an exception to the rule that Keen may only applied once to any one weapon. The great axe displays ghostly Angerthas runes to the wielder announcing the Khuzdul name ‘Head Taker’. When the wielder kills an opponent, they hear a voice in their head (either in Khuzdul or accented Westron, depending on the wielder), “He stands before me in combat. I want his head.” (Note: The ghost of the Dwarf that owned it haunts the Head Taker axe, attempting to force the wielder of the axe to take and collect the heads of his enemies – a Corruption test to resist). When the wielder is surprised, the same voice may prompt the wielder to attack and “take” the interloper’s head (a Corruption test to resist)! If the wielder attempts to discard or dismantle Head Taker, the ghost may fool the wielder into believing they have succeeded (a TN16 Corruption test to disbelieve)! The wielder will constantly be urged by the voice to use Head Taker (a Corruption test to resist) in favor of all other melee weapons. Failing that, the ghost will shatter the other weapon … the ghost will hiss, “I will destroy every weapon you pick up until you use me!” Should anyone try to destroy the axe, the ghost will take over the wielder’s body completely (a TN18 Corruption test to resist) and attack all present that seeks its destruction! The Keen Qualities allow the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Whenever a G-rune is rolled on the Feat die, the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body! Note: It only has the Keen Qualities as a result of its being haunted.
• 1 mithril brooch – According to the words etched upon it, this once belonged to a guard of the House of Barahir. Barahir was the 8th Ruling Steward of Gondor.
• 1 Gondorian helm.
• 1 amulet with a crudely fashioned crescent moon symbol … a Lore test reveals that this particular crescent moon is a Woodman of Mirkwood clan symbol.
• 5 Orc scimitars.
• 2 Woodmen long swords.
• 13 daggers.
• 13 short swords.
• 1 Rohirric mail hauberk with the Qualities of Cunning Make and Close-fitting (Encumbrance: 18; Protection: 5d+1).
• An ivory statue of a horse.
• A golden, bejewelled ring. This is the Heir’s Ring, a symbol of the House of Eorl (King Théoden’s family). Anyone who could return the precious signet would be well rewarded in Rohan. This ring once belonged to Walda, 12th king of Rohan. He was slain with all his companions when Orcs trapped them, as they rode by mountain paths from Dunharrow in 2851 T.A.
• There are many other items to be found with the above mentioned treasures, though they are in far too poor a condition to be of any use.

The Pit

There is a pit in the room, remnants of an ancient water well, approximately 12’ deep. The spiders have used this pit to toss refuse into throughout the centuries. As a result, it is filled with a large amount of treasure!

• 395 Treasure Points in gems, gold, silver and copper coins. There is currency from Eregion, Gondor, the Three Realms (Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur), from Erebor and Ered Luin, and even from Númenor itself!
• A great chest nearly buried in the coins. In the chest are two items: an ancient book and a large scroll. The ancient book, written in Quenya, is entitled, “He Who Fled to the East.” A Noldor Loremaster named Fëagon, the original owner of this dwelling, wrote it. The book is a treatise on the Dindair … what they are, where they came from, and how to destroy them. The scroll is a rolled parchment containing a depiction of one of the final battles between Morgoth and the Valar. The artist, it seems, favored the side of Morgoth. Depicted are mountains collapsing, dragons and Dindairs in the air and Morgoth himself towering over the landscape with Grond held aloft over his darksome head. In one corner of the painting, a shadowy figure is shown lifting a large stone to reveal 5 additional shadowy figures — the Dindair! They are each named: He Who Fled to the North, He Who Fled to the South, He Who Fled to the East, He Who Fled to the West, and He Who Stood at his Master’s Side.
• 1 Elven long sword with the Qualities of Grievous, Keen, and Orc-Sense (Damage: 7 (1h)/9 (2h); Edge: 9; Injury: 16 (1h)/18 (2h); Encumbrance: 3) – The Orc-Sense ability gives the weapon the innate ability to detect Orcs. If Orcs are within 1000 ft., it will emit a blue glow, which gets more intense the closer the Orcs are. It does not indicate the number or direction, only relative distance.
• 1 Long sword with the Quality of Fell (Damage: 5 (1h)/7 (2h); Edge: 10; Injury: 18 (1h)/20 (2h); Encumbrance: 3).
• 1 Dwarven mattock with the Qualities of Grievous and Fell (Damage: 10; Edge: 10; Injury: 20; Encumbrance: 3).
• 1 Elven long sword with the Qualities of Grievous, Keen, and Orc-Sense (Damage: 7 (1h)/9 (2h); Edge: 9; Injury: 16 (1h)/18 (2h); Encumbrance: 3) – This blade is etched on both sides of the blade with Faenorian script in Quenya. Rilya, a weapon smith of the Halls of Ost-In-Edhel, crafted it. The blade is named Tirin-Lirin-Dagor, which means, “I sing, I watch for Battle”. The Orc-Sense ability gives the weapon the innate ability to detect Orcs. If Orcs are within 1000 ft., it will emit a blue glow, which gets more intense the closer the Orcs are. It does not indicate the number or direction, only relative distance.
• 1 Elven long sword with the Qualities of Grievous, Keen, and Spider-Sense (Damage: 7 (1h)/9 (2h); Edge: 8; Injury: 16 (1h)/18 (2h); Encumbrance: 3) – This blade is finely crafted and has writing on the blade (in Adûnaic), identifying it as Ungolcrist, the Spider-Cleaver. The pommel jewel is the lacquered eye of a great spider! The Spider-Sense ability gives the weapon the innate ability to detect spiders. If spiders are within 1000 ft., it will emit a blue glow, which gets more intense the closer the spiders are. It does not indicate the number or direction, only relative distance.
• 2 Elven hewing spears with the Qualities of Grievous and Keen (Damage: 7 (1h)/9 (2h); Edge: 9; Injury: 14 (1h)/16* (2h); Encumbrance: 3; Called Shot: As a spear, plus increase the Injury TN by 4 if wielded two-handed*) – These hewing spears match the Elven short swords mentioned below.
• 2 Elven short swords with the Qualities of Grievous and Fell (Damage: 7; Edge: 10; Injury: 16; Encumbrance: 2) – These short swords match the Elven hewing spears mentioned above.
• There are many other items to be found in this treasure horde, though they are in far too poor a condition to be of any use.

The Trapdoor

A successful Awareness test reveals a trapdoor in the floor of the room, now camouflaged by centuries of debris, looking like the floor. Originally, the trapdoor was not hidden. The trapdoor is recessed 6 inches into the floor, allowing for a locked bar to bolt into the door frame. It is made from 4” thick dense stone (weighs 1,290 lbs.) and screws into a 6” steel frame covered in Faenorian script in Quenya. A successful Lore test reveals that the words are those of sealing and binding. There are broken remnants of a mechanism that allowed the stone to be lifted from the frame.

The Vault Beneath the Trapdoor

Fëagon sponsored an expedition that actually tracked down and imprisoned the Dindair, He Who Fled to the North. The trapdoor is the door to the prison!
Opening the trapdoor will free the Dindair! A successful Awareness test made by any Elven hero will allow them to sense a darkness creep over the land, as if something of shadow and of fear rose up in the tunnels below and passed out of the hillside … they may have freed something when they opened the door! This check is made automatically, like a sixth sense.

Note: The player-heroes are not intended to combat the Dindair at this time! Rather, the Dindair will escape to reconnoiter the changed world, for it has been imprisoned a long time! This is just the foreshadowing of future adventures for them to undertake.

Leaving the Nest

When the player-heroes venture back out of the spider’s nest they find three Lesser Spiders — smashed by large rocks from an unknown source. They find large footprints leading off towards the lakeshore. This is the handiwork of a Giant who has wandered down from the Mountains of Mirkwood. He is friendly and the player-heroes may spend time with him chatting, sharing stories and songs. If asked for his name, he replies that his actual name is quite unpronounceable by non-Giants. He suggests they use the name an Elf once called him, Hîrgond (Sindarin: ‘master rock’). The player-heroes may make a Courtesy test to impress him enough to call him friend and thereby receive his offer of help should they have need to cross the Mountains of Mirkwood in his domain.

Spiderlings

ATTRIBUTE LEVEL 2
ENDURANCE 6
HATE 1
PARRY 4
ARMOUR 1d

SKILLS
Personality, 0 Survival, 0
Movement, 2 Custom, 0
Perception, 0 Vocation, 0

WEAPON SKILLS
Ensnare* 1
Sting 1
Damage 2, Edge 10, Injury 14, CS poison**

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Great Leap
Reduce the creature’s Hate point score by one to attack any one companion, in any combat stance including Rearward.
Seize Victim
If the creature’s main form of attack has hit, the creature may hold on to the target to reduce the mobility of the victim: a seized victim cannot change stance, and sees its Parry rating reduced to half (rounding fractions up).
The seizing creature cannot attack with its main weapon as long as it is seizing the target (but can freely use a secondary attack if it possesses one).

Dindair

ATTRIBUTE LEVEL 9
ENDURANCE 55
HATE 9
PARRY 99
ARMOUR 3d

SKILLS
Personality, 3 Survival, 4
Movement, 4 Custom, 3
Perception, 4 Vocation, 3

WEAPON SKILLS
Bite 4
Damage 5, Edge Eye of Sauron, Injury 16, CS pierce
Rake 4
Damage 5, Edge Eye of Sauron, Injury 14, CS -

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Bewilder
Reduce the creature’s Hate point score by one to reduce the Parry rating of a hero to the basic combat TN of their chosen stance.
Denizen of the Dark
While the creature is in the dark (at night, underground, or in a dense forest) its Attribute level is doubled as far as all rolls are concerned (attack and Protection tests included).
Fell Speed
The creature, capable of flight, can choose which heroes to engage at the beginning of every turn (even when in inferior numbers), can attack heroes in any stance, and can choose to abandon combat at the beginning of any round.
Hate Sunlight
The creature loses one point of Hate at the end of the first round of combat fought while exposed to the light of the sun.
Savage Assault
If the creature’s main form of attack has just hit producing a great or extraordinary success, reduce its Hate point score by one point to immediately roll a second attack on the same target using the creature’s secondary weapon.
Snake-like Speed
When a hero has rolled for an attack against the creature, reduce its Hate point score by one to double the creature’s basic Parry score (not including the bonus due to a shield). If the TN to hit the creature is now higher than the roll, the attack missed.

Thank you, Throrsgold!
Very interesting read, especially the layout of the nest.

...and I always forget that spiders, here in M-E, speak, yell and curse!

I got a possible answer to my own question: there was more to the kingdom of Dale than the city of Dale.
At page 92 of the LM book we found that in 2759 Girion of Dale drives back the Easterlings, beyond the borders. And the map shows hundreds of miles of “Upper Marches” that apparently belong to the Bardings.
I (like to) think these marches are the old “border marches” of the kingdom of Dale, a frontier with strong military presence, dotted with watchtowers, hill forts and garrison towns. Hence the markedly military culture displayed by the modern Bardings: even in the heyday of the kingdom it was a place used to constant raiding and counter-raiding, and the fall of Dale only worsened the situation.
In the long years since the fall of the kingdom many town and forts fell to the Easterlings or were abandoned. But many other survived till present times, and their inhabitants continued to proudly call themselves “Men from Dale”.

A very good question. Since the orcs became very numerous in the Misties again since almost 500 years before the temporal setting of TOR, it is indeed a good question what prevented the Orcs to intensely raid all of the Anduin Vales - or at least those areas west of the river.
In the 2740s they invaded Eriador intensely (this is hinted at in the LM book) and caused intense trouble for the wide territory of Eriador. Here they had to struggle with difficult logistics over hundreds of kilometers over hostile or at least wilderness terrain.

The Anduin Vales OTOH are on the doorstep of the Orcs (Moria, Goblin-gate and Gundabad) and within three days at most they can reach almost every point in this area.

Were I given the task of defending against such raids, I'd be in deep trouble, as I have almost no advance warning to move my families and livestock to a safe and assemble a force to deal with the raiders. And OTOH, I can't keep sufficient forces spread out over all threatened territories. Either I have to give up deliberately a lot of territory in exchange for a very small well-defended one with a very high level of central organization/authority and military organization (Mountain Hall?), or I have to retreat to safer areas east of the river.

The question is, were the Northmen of the Anduin Vales that centrally organized to repel serious attacks of large numbers of Orcs - comparable perhaps to the level prior to the Battle of Five Armies? It would imply a well-run and organized "state" of sorts that has vanished by the time of The Hobbit. Here, a good explanation why this ostensibly well-organized realm fell into ruin and oblivion - especially after the threat was over - would be needed.

The alternative, that they paid tribute to the Orcs in order to avoid destruction is possible too, but certainly less "heroic" and honest

So, after all, the primary problem is IMO in the time long before Beorn & Co; e.g. from about TA 2480 to 2750. After that, the Orcs are much diminished in power by their losses in Eriador and of course half a century later against the Dwarves.

Concerning settlements: IIRC that had been touched in old thread, and the most likely solution were settlements along the Celduin. Tolkien's texts on northern Rhovanion in earlier times are quite scarce, but they seem to imply that the Easterlings were never seriously interested in permanently occupying or conquering the area north of the Celduin (before the WotR of course). Thus, the dalish refugees and other remnants are quite likely to have had a relative safe home on the middle Celduin up to Long Lake and not directly threatened by serious Easterling invasions on the land.

The occasional raid is another matter of course...

EDIT: At least in the 2500s there might have been some Easterling problems in the eastern parts of the land, i.e. probably area of the Cranen and south the of the Emyn Engrin, since we know:

Best
Tolwen

Best
Tolwen

It's quite a 'dark' take on the area Corvo, but I do like it.

There have been several threads about population and settlement patterns since the forum was set up. I agree with everything that Tolwen writes in his previous post but would like to add a couple of other ideas on the settlements of the Dalish exiles.

In the Hobbit, the Prof tells us that men came from West and South to Bards new Kingom of Dale. We are all pretty much agreed that the 'southerners' were most likely living in settlements that grew up around the old trading posts on the River Running after the Dragon evicted them from Dale.

I believe that numbers of refugees fled west into the lands once occupied by the Eotheod in the Upper Anduin Vales. I also believe that it is likely that they were either quite strong in numbers, or that they occupied a strongly defended position, or possibly both.
When Bolg gathered his horde to strike at Erebor they would have come from the west along the gap between the Grey Mountains and Northern Mirkwood. It is my belief that, being Orcs, a small and weak populace would have been destroyed in their passing. Bolg may well have the bigger picture in mind, but what about the lesser Warlords amongst his allies?
I even wonder if the common notion of the old Eotheod capital at Framsburg as an unoccupied ruin might be reviewed with an intention to place a sizeable community of Dalish exiles behind it's earthen ramparts.

Likewise, when the Dwarfs were evicted and forced east into the Iron Hills, I can imagine numbers of Dalefolk travelling with them. At this point, the trade route to Dorwinion along the River Running seems quite circuitous and so I could see the Dwarfs sponsoring Trading Posts on the Redwater and settling their Dalish allies around them. The quote from Durins Folk in the LOTR Appendix A(as used by Tolwen in the previous post) seems to support the notion that the Northmen may even already have had settlements in the Carnen region.

@Corvo, have you read Eluadin's post on Radagast and Rhosgobel? He as some really nice ideas in there for Woodman settlement patterns.

As regards the Beornings, it is my opinion that they are(for the most part) Woodmen who have taken Beorn as their Lord. They don't seem to exist when Bilbo and the Dwarfs travel through Beorn's territory.
I think that there might also be a remnant of the Eotheod amongst them as well as some Dalefolk who have elected not to return to Dale.

Perhaps not culturally specific enough, but still interesting and useful food for thought, is a quote from MORGOTH'S RING (Myths Transformed, Text X, Page 419 of the Harper-Collins Paperback):

"... The Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have been irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded."

Naturally, all the appropriate disclaimers regarding the "canonicity" of the HoME series apply, but this passage certainly does not contradict anything else in Tolkien to my knowledge, canonical or otherwise, and seems consistent with his other writings.

One expects that Radagast, Gandalf, and the Sindar of Mirkwood would all articulate something like this regarding how to deal with Orcs. I am less sure about the Men of Wilderland -- particularly the Beornings -- and the Dwarves.

Thanks Halbarad, lots of inputs.

That idea about Dalish exiles living in the upper Anduin is spot-on for me. I was trying to find a way to have some Bardings and Woodmen knowing each other since childhood: the sort of people best suited to span the gap among the two cultures.

Framsburg is a nice idea too, but I'm afraid that “question n.2” (how do you survive the orcs?) rule it out. As Tolwen pointed out “The Anduin Vales OTOH are on the doorstep of the Orcs (Moria, Goblin-gate and Gundabad) and within three days at most they can reach almost every point in this area”.
Gundabad is practically on the doorstep of Framsburg. OTOH, this leave the old, abandoned town as a suitable adventuring spot

PS: I'll search for Eluadin's post.

Edit: found Eluadin's threads.
Radagast and Rhosgobel: LINK
Woodmen of Mirkwood, origins: LINK
Woodmen settlemen east of Dusky River: LINK

I agree with your analysis Tolwen, and I want to elaborate some more on the subject.
As you hinted, non-professional armies need a reasonable time to muster, regroup and organize (if the threat is beyond the single village level).
Given the northmen of the Anduin Vale survived till now, I think they should have some type of intelligence/early warning that let 'em marshall their forces before the orcs actually leave their strongholds. Alternatively, they should have some bottleneck where few guardians can stop the enemy horde or keep it at bay for some precious day: maybe the Old Ford?

[Actually I think the Professor simply don't considered these matters. But these are the premise I was given, and I want to find some explanation to keep the world as given.]

So, here I'm again: the Lamp of Balthi protect Woodmen Town, Mountain Hall is built in an impregnable position, Rhosgobel is defended by the Brown Wizard.
What saved Woodland Hall from the orcs of Goblin-Town for generation?

Some hypothesis:
-Some type of “magical” early warning? The birds, or a pact with the River Maidens?
-Guarding the ford? Every able warrior of Woodland Hall had to spend a week each season guarding the Old Ford. Till 2941, when the garrison was overrun by the orc horde. Hereafter such duty was taken by Beorn.
-Treacherous ground? Woodland Hall is surrounded by a swamp on the west side. It's not shown on the map because it's too small... but five miles of swamp are enough to slow down any orc army.
-Ancient magic? The woods around the settlement are... well, strange. The trees looks alive with an ancient cunning, and are hostile to the foreigners. Non-Woodmen are unable to find Woodland Hall, as every path lead them astray.

Any idea or suggestion is welcome

IMO both Woodland Hall and Woodmen Town are not too big a problem. They are on the eastern bank of the river. Rivers are always an obstacle (even to real world forces), and all the more for orcs. Defending bottlenecks such as fords is sufficient IMO. Especially if you keep a good watch/patrol on the eastern bank, you are able to at least delay any crossing long enough to organize a defense/retreat.

The problem is IMO Mountain Hall and the western bank. It might be built in an "impregnable position", but it is located in the foothills of the Misties - even closer to the orc-holds (Moria, Goblin-gate and Gundabad are just the big ones, there are numerous smaller ones in between).
The LM book states for TA 2480:

This implies a stiff defense on the western bank and the unwillingness to leave the area. Even if Mountain Hall itself is very secure, how good must it be to survive a serious attack? When the orcs leave their mountain holds, they are already at Mountain Hall (so to say), resulting in even less advance warning. They were able to effectively cut any unwanted passage over the mountains (cf. Celebrían's abduction) In the 2740s they were able to seriously endanger Eriador for about a decade and give battles (e.g. significant numbers) with the Rangers. It would be easy to lay siege to Mountain Hall without any effort, especially as it is so close to their own homes, and probably seen as a threat. They'd have very short lines of supply (a day's walk) while any enemy would have to go a relative long way for a relief force (adding the problems of advance warning to logistic issues).
The orcs don't even need to storm it, they can wait until hunger works its way.

Later on, the LM has another - IMHO - problematic passage:

This implies a very stiff and successful defense and military presence in the Anduin Vales. The eastern bank is OK (see above), but IMO the western not.
It is reminiscent of the alliance of the Longbeards and Northmen in the Second Age. The problem is that the Longbeards (Durin's Folk) are now seriously weakened. They are prosperous again now, but they had to suffer two catastrophic defeats and forced losses of their homes (Moria and Grey Mountains) with the accompanying losses of population. Given their slow reproduction rate, they are very vulnerable to high losses (in contrast to orcs for example - and especially to losses of homes where their womenfolk is). Appendix A then only speaks of the area between Erebor and the Emyn Engrin as the territory of interest for the Dwarves. It is much smaller and near to each other. I cannot really believe the Longbeards would have a strong military presence in the Anduin Vales to assist the men there - they simply had enough losses and their own interests to protect. In the Erebor-Emyn Engrin area these are the same as those of the Northmen living there, but the Anduin area? The Dwarves don't have any assets there anymore (in contrast to the Second Age).
Since the orcs were a serious problem for a decade in Eriador they had to be very numerous then. Now, these numbers were dismayed by the men of the - western - Anduin Vales with the problems already addressed? IMO that's not very believable.

IMHO the best and easiest solution would be to have Mountain Hall abandoned in the mid- to late 27th century due to the increasing pressure of the orcs which could not be contained as outlined above. The men yielded the western bank of the Anduin altogether to secure the eastern one and a line of defense that could realistically be held. Here the Dwarves might have sent an occasional small contingent if their own interests were threatened. The defensibility of the Anduin makes reinforcements from Erebor (a long way to go) believable for select occasions. Then the orcs tried to breach these defense for some time, and when they realized they weren't going anywhere, they looked westward.
Thus the orcs could raid the western bank, but there was not much to be raided there and therefore they ultimately (after unsuccesfully trying to conquer the eastern bank) shifted their look to Eriador which was easier to invade - even if the lines of logistics and communication were much longer.

The example of exile from the Misties is even supported by The Hobbit where Beorn speaks of being evicted (or fleeing) from there as well.

Best
Tolwen

Many good points Tolwen.

If the Old Ford is safe, only Mountain Hall is at risk.

To be honest, I envision Mountain Hall being different from Helm's Deep (a fortified dead-end, to put it bluntly). I cannot imagine the Woodsmen, used to be wily guerrilla fighters, putting themselves in a corner and trusting their lives to some wall. Wrong culture, to me.
I think the main, fortified avenue is from the valley, but there are many narrow mountain paths on the “back” of the settlement that lead beyond the mountains, making the very difficult to blockade (unless it's winter, but that's a moot point).

That notwithstanding, being some days walk from the orcs holds is asking for troubles.
As long as I'm concerned, I'm fine with the idea that Mountain Hall can have been abandoned in the 27th century and re-settled just some generations ago. Enough time in human perception, and I'm running an human-centric campaign.

If we are keeping the notion that the Old Ford was defended against the Orcs, we can have some of the dalish “western exiles” mentioned by Halbarad setting up a village/town/fort on the eastern bank. It's a sensible spot to settle, after all.
These Men of Dale can be the guardians of the ford that kept the eastern Anduin Vale safe from the orcs for almost two centuries. A suitably stoic endeavor for someone with the Stout-hearted blessing!

Now I have to choose: what happened to the dalish guardians of the Old Ford?
-they are alive and well. They just call themselves Beornings, now.
-when Bard became king, they abandoned the ford and returned to Dale. The Beornings took guard duty.
-after the Battle of Five Armies, some orc warbands retreated along the eastern bank of the Anduin, and stormed the fortified town from the vulnerable side. Most warriors were away, with Bard, and the town was torched by the orcs bent on revenge. Tragic enough.

Very interesting discussion and an exciting campaign prospect!

For a response to the Anduin Vale question and defense against the Orcs of the Misty Mountains, I would advise beginning with the clues provided by The Hobbit.

The Hobbit, Out of the Frying Pan and into the Fire: "In spite of the danger of this far land bold men had of late been making their way back into it from the South, cutting down trees, and building themselves places to live in among the more pleasant woods in the valleys and along the river shores. There were many of them, and they were brave and well-armed, and even the Wargs dared not attack them if there were many together, or in the bright day."

Here Tolkien is referring to the Warg "army" that assembled in the clearing. Army might be a little bit of a stretch hence the quotes. But, the point here should be that even if all the individual Wargs were to gather together, the number of woodmen would be so great that victory was not assured or even countenanced likely. Also, we should take into our considerations that this group of Wargs is specifically associated to Goblin-town by Tolkien. Not to suggest that they serve the Great Goblin, but to point out these are most likely not all the Wargs in the region operating independently or with Orkish friends. The passage continues:

"But now they had planned with the goblins' help to come by night upon some of the villages nearest the mountains. If their plan had been carried out, there would have been none left there the next day; all would have been killed except the few the goblins kept from the wolves and carried back as prisoners to their caves."

Complete and utter victory against a few villages required a combined force of Orcs and Wargs. That is a significant point to take home about the strength of the woodmen near Goblin-town. We are considering some of the villages, and that is probably far from the total represented by Tolkien's statement that there were many and well-armed. A little further on:

"They thought [the Wargs] they were friends of the woodmen, and were come to spy on them, and would take news of their plans down into the valleys, and then the goblins and wolves would have to fight a terrible battle instead of capturing prisoners and devouring people waked suddenly from their sleep."

Without surprise on the side of the goblins and wolves, the size of "some villages" would be enough for a terrible battle. Interesting. Also, they expected to find the woodmen asleep in their ambush was successful. Interesting also. Here is my interpretation. Raiding was the normal mode of interaction between the Orcs of the Misty Mountains and the lands around them. Consider this less a strategy and more the way of life among the goblin-holds. Men come up from the South to live in the woods and along the River. These are the woodmen on the western side of the River and along the shore of the River. Culturally united but with a different heritage, we should consider these newcomers as separate at first from the Woodmen of Mirkwood who never left their home (and, hence, required no returning or coming up from the South). Some point from this northern migration the two peoples through intermarriage and clan alliances become culturally the "Woodmen of Mirkwood" in TOR. This people that came up from the South to become the woodmen mentioned in The Hobbit seemed able to deter the goblins of Goblin-town not becasue of a unified leadership or professional military. But, because of their numbers and bravery, and their armament which, in the context of the goblins of Goblin-town was enough to deter the preferred raiding that was the common goblin practice. This should be enough to further develop what the western bank of the River was like as far as it's peoples and their settlements.

What about Moria's Orcs? And, for that matter, the other Orcs of the Misty Mountains. First and most importantly, my assumption is that what Bolg achieved for the Battle of Five Armies was unique unheard of since the great Dwarven and Orc wars. And, in fact, this is what Tolkien suggests in The Hobbit. There was no unified Orc "empire" that could mount a professional or large military campaign until Bolg rallied them around the death of the Great Goblin. That said, all along the west Anduin Vales then what we are talking about is Mannish resistance to goblin raiding. Moreover, e Mannish settlements east of the Misty Mountains posed a more difficult target for goblin raiding then the peoples living west of the Misty Mountains. Again, this should be enough to extrapolate population sizes and settlement patterns, and distances between settlements.

The way to think of a united woodmen defense south of the Carrock, and the same could apply north of the Carrock is this. The villages were spaced too far apart to be overwhelmed in a single assault. Unless all were killed word would spread. The villages would be close enough such that the woodmen could easily muster together a large enough body of fighters to counter any raiding force assembled by the goblins of Goblin-town. "There is no messenger like Death" is something of a grim Woodmen adage in my campaign becasue of this precise situation.

What about those east of the Anduin. Well, I will spare everyone the quotes from The Hobbit. But, if you read the relevant passages about the Carrock and Beorn, then you can extrapolate that Beorn held the great ford and his sacred Carrock in defense on his own. More so if we imagine him in bear-form. Essentially, Beorn single-handedly through his supernatural form and the uniqueness of the ford itself defended the east bank from raiders that might crossover from the Misty Mountains.

In the northern Anduin Vales, then, we might assume a similar settlement pattern as that south of the Carrock. This could have the same affect on the Orcs of Mount Gram and Gundabad. But, when Bolg marches through with his goblin-host, it is far easier for Mannish settlements to disperse and harry then confront and fight a pitched battle. The goblins keen on reaching the Lonely Mountain to secure the treasure of Smaug would spend little time in my opinion on eradicating Mannish settlements. Pillage and plunder, then burn, but always keep moving east. Moreover, The Hobbit tells us that the goblin-host travelled through the mountains (Chapter 17, The Clouds Burst). We might safely assume so word never travelled east before the approaching might of the Misty Mountain Orcs.

One last piece of information to adduce size, resistance and defense, settlement patterns and the such would be the mustering of the goblins. In the same chapter quoted just previously, Tolkien leads us to believe that between the events Chapter 6 and 17 the goblin-host mustered. That is, it took approximately four months to assemble a host of sufficient strength and organization to embark on a campaign other than raiding.

Hopefully, you might find these thoughts useful in your campaign design.

Regards,
E

PS, my suspicion regarding the TOR timeline entry that the Misty Mountain Orcs start raiding west becasue of the strength in the Anduin vales of the Free Peoples is based on a similar close reading of the The Hobbit. So I would say it is not out of bounds canonically. But, that is my own opinion.

At your service! *bows*

I'd make it even more dynamic and full of drama. The few bits of original Tolkien info are woven into it:

ca. 2680 Mountain Hall is abandoned due to the increasing pressure from the orcs.
ca. 2710 The last Stoor settlements along the Gladden are destroyed or abandoned due to the orcs' raids
2690-2730 The orcs try to break the defences of the eastern bank, but are ultimately repelled
2740 The orcs begin to raid Eriador in earnest
2750 Final defeat of the orcs in Eriador
2799 Crushing defeat of the orcs in the war with the Dwarves.
2805 Mountain Hall re-claimed due to the weakness of the orcs in the mountains
2910 Mountain Hall again abandoned due to the increasing orc strength. Young Beorn is among the exiles (therefore his vow to return to the mountains once the orcs are gone or weak)
2946 Beorn leads a great part of his people to Mountain Hall to re-claim it, thus fulfilling his dream/oath to return. This is the state shown on the maps

Best
Tolwen

Gandalf specifically states that, while the goblins were known to be in the general area, until Thorin and Company traveled through the High Pass the goblins were not bothering travelers along that route. They were, instead, accosting another, easier pass nearby. While it is fairly clear that the Entrance's is what has been moved, the overall tone of comments in chapters 4 and 6 imply that Goblin Town is not a permanent settlement in a long established .

Adding in the alliance with the wargs, which transformed the goblin infantry into a mobile unit (at least) if not outright cavalry, guerrilla tactics or raiding is the most likely forms of attack. (Any closer communities would be decimated by infantry and soon be abandoned.) The Woodmen are specifically stated to be rugged and tenacious so otherwise things agree. I have always assumed the Woodmen's mind-set was similar to the American western settlers / cowboys - although with less shady activity.

Please note however that I am making a distinction between goblins and orcs here. Goblins, as Tolkien later states, are basically only the "runts" of the orc world. They're less capable as killing machines and are treated accordingly in a "might makes right" culture. I am making this distinction simply because of the distinct differences in goblins vs orcs in The Hobbit and LotR.


Interestingly, the Hobbit states outright that their are many valleys into, and passes over, the Misty Mountains. This contradicts TOR's map which marks the mountains as impassible which I assumed to mean the terrain interfered. However, while the terrain would allow passage across the mountains, there are an assortment of evil creatures preying on travelers attempting to use these alternate, unknown passes.

There is room for lots of adventures in all of these valleys and unknown passes.

Edit: Heh! Bit of cross-posting here. My research skills need to be polished in order to keep my comments within the correct flow of discussion!

Excellent work Eluadin! It sheds a good light on the Hobbit version of the lands.

Tolkien edited the old version of The Hobbit to make it fit (at least in general) fit to The Lord of the Rings. Sooner or later the story and perspective will grow out of Rhovanion and address all the other info as well. Then we have to cope with the different styles and tones of the books.

Your points about the orcs and settlement patterns of this time is very good. It shows that Woodmen were living on the western bank - relative - close to the river.
I'd say it needs a powerfil individual like Azog or Bolg to unite the orcs into greater cohesion and action.
Nonetheless, the orcs of the The Lord of the Rings are IMO more vile and deadly (if you know what I mean; 'seriously' evil so to say) than the Hobbit ones. But this is surely an effect of the audience the bookis were written for.

But your quotes offer a good starting point to further detail the most likely dispositions

EDIT: For the comparison - in the 'Hobbit', the orcs are nasty, but often also a bit funny or inept villains. In the 'LotR', they are tough and unforgiving bad guys who neither give nor ask for quarter.

Best
Tolwen

In my opinion as a LM, the best approach to take between the tone of The Hobbit and The LotR is through authorial perspective. When it comes to translating The Hobbit into TOR, you interpret it through it's Hobbit-centric perspective. Also, you use it like you would a memoir as opposed to a history. In The Hobbit, Goblins are nasty BUT nothing compared to the Orcs of The LotR not because of the evolution of the stories and their intended audience, though we know that as readers and gamers. But, in the world of Middle-earth and TOR, because The Hobbit is precisely a Hobbit's memoir and not a history.

To put this into practice means that the goblins of Goblin-town don't necessarily have to be like they're described in The Hobbit: palatable for children but scary enough to create a gasp of excited fear. The goblins of Goblin-town as Bilbo remembers them in his memoir are that way, but how are they truly in the game? This is the rationale for the dwarves of Thorin's company who seem a bumbling lot (until the end) in comparison to the Gimli of The LotR. Now as readers and gamers outside the world of Middle-earth and TOR we attribute this to the different stories and the different intended audiences, etc. In the world of TOR and Middle-earth, we wink and nod at the embellishment and story-telling provided by the Hobbit-returned-from-death with riches and renown.

In fact, I used this in my campaign to the woe of a lax Hobbit of mine wandering over the mountains expecting goblins to be nasty BUT nothing too bad. Wrong. At least in my campaign to their surprise. But, it makes sense when you think about it, and thankfully they did after all the trouble this lax attitude caused the group.

Regards,
E

Thanks Eluadin, that's exactly my thought. I also see the LotR as the more 'objective' report (even if there are personal views in it as well), and thus re-interpreting The Hobbit accordingly.
That way, the orcs planning to raid the Woodmen are in "reality" probably a lot tougher than suggested by Bilbo's report.

Best
Tolwen

Thank you fine sirs. Lots of informations and ideas.

Translating my thoughts into an intelligible english is a pain, so forgive me if I don't seem giving due credit to all your ideas.

@Eluadin: making the orc army of 2941 the exception and not the rule, solves a lot of issues.
And personally, I'm totally in favor of portraying the goblins as raiders lacking any superior discipline, easy to scare or intimidate. When Sauron and his captains enter the scene the difference will be dramatic.

@Tolwen: thank you for the Mountain Hall's timeline. The inclusion of Beorn makes it all the more dramatic, and it's the feeling I'm shooting for, so to speak.

@Garn: the idea that Goblin Town is not a unified, permanent settlement makes sense. Raiders take advantage of a nomadic lifestyle, and quarrelsome orcs are unlikely to enjoy living bunched together, if they can avoid it. And while the maps show us High Pass in the Misty mt, or Stelvio Pass on the Alps as clear, defined lines, from the ground the mountains appear as a maze of valley and ravines, full of passages and dead ends.

Indeed. The great strength of the orcs would only be between TA 2500 and 2750 (or so) before the war with the Dwarves and perhaps from ca. TA 2920 to 2941 when they had recovered from most of the losses a hundred years earlier.

And even then the greater strength and determination would be until TA 2750 (or 2799). Bolg was either not as strong as a king or more cautious than his father. That the passes in the Misties were effectively blocked by the power of the mountain-orcs after TA 2509 (when Celebrían was abducted), is undisputable and Appendix A and B of the LotR both tell of numerous strongholds throughout the Misties in this time. The war from 2793-99 broke this power, then Bolg managed to regain a good deal of it and lost again much of that with his defeat and death.
Afterwards there were probably a lot of internal fights among the orcs over the succession of the fallen chieftains, giving the men of the North a few years of respite from serious harassment. Rebuilding the losses would take even longer. It's probably due to this that these orcs did not paly a major role in the War of the Ring 77 years later - there was not enough orc- (man-)power available after two catastrophic defeats within 150 years.

Best
Tolwen

Tolwen, another thought.

Your timeline for Mountain Hall creates an interesting background for Beorn, something I was lacking. Till now Beorn was a bit of island among the men: gruff, alone and seemingly satisfied with his life. Now there is something he care for, a long lost home, and a vow waiting to be fulfilled. What I need for my sort of campaign

Gentlemen Thanks for several great posts!

In the first post of this thread I formulated four questions. I got some thorough answers for the first two (where lived the Bardings till now? How can the Woodsmen survive so near to Goblin Town?), and a good idea for the third (how can Beorn get involved in my campaign?).

Still pending is the fourth question: who was the Necromancer for these peoples? (...) Everybody in Mirkwood fear him, but I don't know the extent of his crimes

Hoplitenomad suggested keeping him somewhat vague: dangerous, dark and foreboding but indefinite.
I admit I was skeptic at first, but it's an idea that might hold water. Sauron is hiding, after all. Hiding in plain sight. He want to scare off the free peoples from the southern Mirkwood/Gladden Field area to better search for the Ring. And, at the same time, don't want to confront the elves or the wizards, because he's still weak and biding his time.

To keep his identity secret he cannot use his most trusted servants, the Nazgul. Nor, I think, Black Numenoreans or other such powerful, intelligent men: the chance of someone being captured by the elves and spilling his secret is too big.
So he had to trust on lesser servitors, creatures unable to grasp the true nature of their master.
In order to slowly evict his enemies from these lands he will quietly expand his power, attracting clueless creatures that find solace in his shadow: Wargs, Bats, I imagine, and Goblins and savage Trolls.

The Necromancer, in this interpretation, is a somewhat passive figure. Whispered about, but never really seen in action. Many fell creatures rally instinctively near him, and Dol Guldur become a bastion of darkness, but he's not actively guiding these beasts. Their wicked nature is enough to spread death and misery afar.
I like to think that the name “Necromancer” was first uttered by the wargs, and successively it spread to elves and men.

Ideas, suggestions, comments?

My belief is that most of us forum users are kind of holding our breath, waiting on Sophisticated Games / Cubicle7 to provide more detailed information about their intended campaign setting in general, but specifically anything having to do with the Necromancer. Because we do not have this knowledge from SG/C7, many of the forum users are hesitant to provide material which may be proven wrong.

Tales from Wilderland may have some minimal information of use, most likely by inference. However, the Darkening of Mirkwood should contain additional detail - but has a release date of Q3, 2012 I believe.

Sensible enough, Garn, thank you for pointing me out

Let's see if someone can help me with something less canon.
If my players are to struggle to bring together the divided Free Peoples, there should be dividing issues!
What I have:
-There is the “disagreement” (ehm...) hinted in the manuals between the Woodmen and the Eagles
-I wrote about Thranduil's political agenda, wary of the growing power of Erebor and Dale.
-The Woodmen fear being subjugated by the Bardings.
-What else?

Again, this is my (non-canon) take on the region, but I don't want to completely lose the Middle-earth's feeling.

Corcoran, your idea that a Hound of Sauron first used the name "Necromancer" sounds like a great idea. In my campaign so far, the main antagonist is a Hound of Sauron precisely becasue of their malicious intelligence that can spread lies and conjure fears spun through clever words and fell-whispers.

Standing back from the Tale of Years perspective and assuming a stance within the communities of Wilderland around 1050 of the Third Age, their first experience of the darkening of Greenwood is that a shadow has fallen across the Wood. Fifty or so years later, the Wise learn that it is rooted in an evil power, I.e., a single-entity thought to be a Nazgul. Most likely, the Free Peoples of the North were never privy to this information, except maybe Thranduil who we might count among the Wise. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that the title Necromancer comes popularly to describe the source of the shadow and the Shadow spreading through all of Greenwood.

If the word Necromancer existed already in the Northmen languages of Rhovanion as something of an evil bogey-man, imagine the affect on the surrounding communities to learn of a legend come real to haunt their lives as well as their darker bedtime stories. Fear and terror, subtlely used to slowly undermine the spirit of the Free Peoples has ever been a favorite weapon of the Enemy. And, so, a Hound of Sauron prowls the woods whispering of a Necromancer and bringing to life a terror from the collective imagination of a people.

But there would be those whose lore and knowledge of the Shadow would see through the murmurs and catch the glint of truth...the Shadow has returned. Among Elves this Shadow-lore survives in its clearest form given their longevity. Among Men it comes and goes depending upon the vicissitudes of time. The Dwarves, ever inward looking to their own designs might take little notice of the grand weave unfolding over Mirkwood.

This goes on for seventeen centuries before the Wise realize that the Shadow in Dol Guldur is no lesser power but the Enemy returned. Most likely, this knowledge was never common. So, as one generation gave away to another, the Wood darkened only to return to light and then to darken again, the Free Peoples lived with an undeaftable Shadow that might lessen its grip but would always return. And, in those same communities, there would be some who would remember always the Shadow would dispel and for a time light and peace, and hope would flourish. This is the cycle of life in Wilderland century upon century engraved into the cultural memory of Men passed down through songs that only dimly remember the truth. Where Elves with their immortality remember.

Has the Necromancer really left? People that hope for a brighter future and see the lessening shadow as indication of that future would like to think so. But, what if once again there is a Hound of Sauron operating in Mirkwood, left behind by its Master whispering dark lies and spreading despair?

This is how in my campaign I play the Necormancer. Something in this might be useful to yours I hope.

Regards,
E

One of the tasks of your intrepid band might be to counter lies like those I proposed in my post above. Where conflict between the Free Peoples of the North might arise is in how they believe or disbelieve these fell-whispers.

As a side note, I refer a lot to a Fell-whisper in my campaign that centers on Mirkwood. My player-heroes think it is an item of evil that needs to be destroyed among other things. But, in truth, it is a Hound of Sauron preparing for the re-occupation of Dol Guldur.

Back to your question of conflict and division, Elven immortality might lend an air of tire exasperation to the forgetfulness of Men and their youthful hope. Despite the centuries long bond between the Woodmen and Elves of Mirkwood, thee might be tension in precisely this way.

Regards,
E

Well, IMO there is a very elegant and fitting solution. It has been developed first in Other Hands magazine (a predecessor to Other Minds). In Issue #12, January 1996, rubric "Arda Lore" on p.44 can be found a short treatment of exactly this question. You can find it here for download.

It should be tackled from the contemporary perspective when this evil thing was first noticed and dubbed "Necromancer" in the 11th century of the Third Age. Eluadin has already made a number of good points here.
In short, the term is likely to have been coined by the Northmen of the area (perhaps Woodmen), since they are probably the first to have noticed and felt his presence. Then you must go from the word Necromancer (such a linguistic approach Tolkien might have found good ). This is a person who can (or pretends to be able to) communicate with the spirits of the Dead.
The hypothesis is now as follows: Amon Lanc may have been a sacred and/or burial ground for the Woodmen. When the new Evil arrives, they lose spiritual contact with their ancestors and Sauron might very well pretend to be able to contact them still; effectively holding these ancestors "hostage".
In the MERP canon, Amon Lanc was an extinct volcano (I'm not sure whether this has some backing by Tolkien or not) and in real world legends, such places were often held to be gates to the Under- or Otherworld where the Dead dwell. That would be of course the perfect place for a Necromancer indeed!
The Elves may have similar experiences, which is all the more easy, since elven fëar have to stay in Arda after the destruction of the body.
That makes for a good story: An evil ghost/wraith/creature able to deal and communicate with the Dead and endangering your deceased loved ones. Now, that is an nasty Necromancer for sure!

Best
Tolwen

Corvo,

You're welcome. As for your other questions I cannot advise at the moment at least in the sense that I need to read more of TOR's setting. I've been really lax lately.

However, keep in mind that if Men are moving their families and communities toward Dale to become Bardings, this creates a vacuum that unknown peoples / creatures will attempt to fill. So if people between the Redwater & River Running head northwest, some of their neighbors (basically anyone off the edge of the map) will probably move into the region if it is left empty. Anything could arrive. Orcs, another culture of Man (less skilled and less good than Northmen, but not exactly as bad as Easterlings), maybe some of the Lossoth (Men from Forochel) drop down from the north?

I would suggest something mediocre or mobile - less interference with future events. Remember that LotR has Easterlings entering the area from the east or southeast, I believe, at Sauron's instigation during the War of the Ring.

I am replying to Throrsgold's idea for a campaign, THE RUINS OF OST-EDLOTHIAD:

My main question is where did you get the idea for the Dindair from? Have you converted the stats from the LOTR Decipher supplement which introduced the Dindair creature, or from somewhere else? And what about the creature's ability to 'disguise' itself (which as I recall is a key ingredient of the threat of this adversary!)

I ask these questions because I have a Dindair in my campaign (who was serving Sauron in Mordor), and of course is a master of disguise, but I haven't 'converted' the creature yet to TOR stats, so I was interested to see yours!

My other comment is that the treasure seems to be rather generous for an abandoned ruin in Mirkwood....

Robin S.

I actually didn't remember from where exactly I got the Dindair from ... I just knew I didn't come up with the idea ... it wasn't original from me. As I read a lot of the Halls of Fire, I figured it was from one of those. The first time I worked on this idea, it was for a D&D 3.5 game ... so, I only had D&D stats written up for it. When I "ported" it into TOR, I was in a hurry ... I just borrowed the Secret Shadow (i.e., the Vampire) write-up and tweaked it to make it more powerful. As I was no where near actually running something that powerful against my group, I left it more-or-less "under-developed" ... figuring I'd tweak it the closer I came to running that part. I missed the disguise part totally, I see. I figured that I'd better put something out on the thread as it wasn't supported, otherwise. Too, I knew I'd likely get some good, helpful feedback from my fellow forumites that I could use to tweak it. Please let me know of your version or changes you'd recommend.

I thought quite a bit about the treasure, too ... more so than anything else in the area. As the site had been abandoned for centuries and the spiders wouldn't really have any use for such items, I envisioned them accumulating a lot of stuff and, quite literally, "trashing" all of the accumulated detritus. As they had a ready-made pit, I figured why would they not use it as a rubbish bin? So, my next thoughts were how much to put there? Again, because of the large amount of time having passed since its use as a lair, I opted towards a large amount as (in reality) the heroes would truthfully NOT be able to take it all (or even a lot of it), but it would always be in the backs of their minds that there WAS loot there ... and a lot of it. If they needed a large amount at a later date (increase in Status or a large project), they knew where they could get some, but also knew they'd have to fight to get it and make plans to go back and get it. I could always increase the dangers at that later date, too.

Hopefully, that explains my reasoning. I welcome suggestions or alternates.

Thanks for YOUR thoughts, too, Robin Smallburrow. I DO appreciate it!

EDIT

I just did an internet search for Dindair and discovered only one reference ... Decipher's Fell Beasts and Wondrous Magic. I pulled out my copy and looked at it. Obviously, where I got my notes for said creature is NOT the Decipher book. They aren't the same thing ... I'm guessing my original source (which I can not locate ) didn't come from Decipher, either. My version was much more like the Secret Shadow ... hence me using it as a starting point. Although, I like some aspects of that, I like the Decipher beastie, too. I will be making some changes to my plans, incorporating some of these interesting tidbits from Fell Beasts.

This post has been edited by Throrsgold on Mar 19 2012, 03:49 PM

The basic idea of the Dindair as Shadow-demons stems from MERP's Northern Mirkwood (1983). There (on p. 36) is one mentioned (named the demonic 'Silent Shadow') and called Dindae. In the 2nd ed. Mirkwood, this individual is even given a name (Slyardach), but no further details. Overall, MERP provided practically nothing beyond this very rough description (a 'shadow-demon' serving the evil Animist Lachglin in his stronghold) and the name. In Other Hands, Issue 27 (Oct. 1999) editor Chris Seeman (later also author for the LotR RPG) mentioned it again in a short article about the series Enchanters of Mirkwood II from Mithril Miniatures and noted that the name should correctly - in the supposed Silvan speech - be rendered as Dindair. The background and description has been much enlarged in Fell Beasts and Wondrous Magic compared to the very rough and superficial MERP treatment, which allowed a lot of room for further development.

Best
Tolwen