I'm going to run the night battle in Words of the Wise and I was wondering. Can orcs see in the dark?

And for that matter can Elves?

I'm looking at "Hate Sunlight" and "Folk of the Dusk" respectively to lead me to "yes" but I can't recall where Tolkien said they could. I know the ancient elves lived under no sun or moon, but does their implicit "starvision" remain?

Looked at a few resources and could not find an answer.

Any advice appreciated.

I think yes they do. Elves can do it for sure. Remember Elves boasting on how could they easily shot the fellowship when they enter the Lothlorien and it was during night if I remember right. Also they lived before the Sun or Moon so they must see in the darkness to some degree.

And orcs probably could too both because the fact they were elves and they live in dark and underground places all the time so they must have good eye sight in darkness. At least better than humans.

Though I don't recall it ever being mentioned in TOR, I think you can imply from a few things (like the Mirkwood Elves 'Folk of the Dusk' Cultural Blessing) that they do.

That and other RPGs simulating Middle-earth have allowed each of those races (Elves, Dwarves, and Orcses) to do so.

My undstanding about Elves is that they can see well at night under starlight. After all they are the Eldar, the people of the stars. They cannot see any better than humans in pitch blackness underground. I don't have a source for this and it may have come from an earlier game so not be canon.

You're right, this isue isn't addressed within TOR specifically. But I would basically agree with what has already been said.

Elves appeared when only starlight was available so they are capable of seeing at lower light levels than the human norm.

Orcs may be of Elven stock (a disputed issue among fans) originally, having been corrupted by Morgoth long ago. As such I cannot see them losing this ability as Morgoth and all Evil within Middle-earth has an aversion to Light. It would be kind of foolish to create creatures capable of withstanding daylight only to keep it in perpetual darkness. Unfortunately this argument implies 98% of Evil will be capable of seeing in the dark.

Dwarfs... are another matter. While they are underground consistently, I cannot recall anything for or against the idea. My opinion here is biased. I love the dwarven settings, technology, most of the history, etc - but kind of hate the people and aspects of the culture. Given a choice, I've never played a taciturn dwarf in any RPG. I might never have played a dwarf at all.

Anyway, my point is, I cannot recall any indication that the Dwarfs weren't, for instance, big fans of skylights built into the side of mountains. Perhaps with mirrors and crystals to reflect and disperse light. Or, for that matter, hugely popular of bonfires and torches (we do know the dwarves used huge amounts of wood). They could also have been chemists (using methane or magnesium), botanists (using phosphorescent plants), mycologists (fungi), zoologists (promoting "herds" of cavern roof dwelling animals with light-related hunting abilities) or entomologists (as zoologist, but promoting insects instead). And that is just off the top of my head.

That all makes sense. Thanks!

Every time I read the LotR, I get the impression that orcs cannot see in total darkness and end up carrying torches and lighting-up fire in their halls, but I can't support my impressions.

I do think they do particularly well even in the dimmest conditions and have learned to navigate and work familiar places blindly need be.

I always though there was something poetic in the fact that servants of Morgoth hate starlight, fear moonlight, cannot stand sunlight and yet cannot function without light.

If I remember correctly there is a passage in The Hobbit(in the room of the Great Goblin, i think) where Tolkien says that it was so dark that even orcs-eyes could not see in this place. It was pitch black. And I also believe that Elves cannot see in complete darkness.

The closest match I can find is from Chapter 4 of The Hobbit:

There's also this, from later in the same chapter:

Overall, this suggests to me that some (but not all) orcs can see in pitch-dark conditions.

Thanks! Good stuff. Blind Guardian set it up and trystero knocked it out.

Sounds like most goblins, elves, and dwarves have low-light vision. Mileage may vary depending on culture/origin.

Looks like only Goblin Archers have the Special Ability 'Denizen of the Dark', which works similar to the Elves' Cultural Blessing.

It does get tricky. I've thought a great deal about this over the years & it seems that we can find examples of either theme

For example, note Uglúk's comment to the other Orcs in Rohan:

"There's only one thing those maggots can do: they can see like gimlets in the dark."

Red Book of Westmarch, 50th Anniversary Ed., III, The Uruk-hai, 454.

This is the quote that ToR uses for Denizen of the Dark in the Loremaster's Book, 66.

For whatever it's worth, I agree with their use of Denizen of the Dark for Goblin Archers, but I'll probably add it from time-to-time to Snaga Trackers and/or Messengers of Lugbúrz. I can't find any justification from the books - I just think it gives them a nasty edge to rattle the player-heroes

There are a couple of interesting passages in The Fellowship of the Ring in the chapter called, "A JOURNEY IN THE DARK."

The first one says, Gimli aided Gandalf very little, except by his stout courage. At least he was not, as were most of the others, troubled by the mere darkness in itself.

At this point the Company is travelling without torches by following the pale ray of Gandalf's staff through the dark mines of Moria. The passage indicates that Dwarves at least can tolerate the dark better than the other races.

Then, a strange thing begins happening to Frodo...

Though he had been healed in Rivendell of the knife-stroke, that grim wound had not been without effect. His senses were sharper and more aware of things that could not be seen. One sign of change that he soon had noticed was that he could see more in the dark than any of his companions, save perhaps Gandalf.

That's interesting. This sounds like the theory of low-light vision for Elves and Dwarves is very plausible, but that Gandalf has superior vision to them.

By the way, I think the chapter "THE BRIDGE OF KHAZAD-DÛM" is my favorite in the book. Extremely well written. A close second would be "THE COUNCIL OF ELROND."

Indeed. My favourite is Council of Elrond too. In fact from Council to the end of Khazad-dum are my favourite section from the whole trilogy.

JRB,
Nice work. I was going to post that familiarity with the Spirit World* might increase perception in Moria, but the idea collapses when you add in the Paths of the Dead because of disparity. If Legolas & Aragorn can seen in the Paths then why are they less capable in Moria?

Best vision (all spectrum) within Moria, in order: Gandalf, Frodo, Gimli, Legolas, all Men and Hobbits are at the same level.

*: Ok, I'm calling it that because I cannot recall Tolkien's "official" terminology for the realm of existence that the Barrows, Corpselights, Nazgul / wraiths, etc lived/functioned within. I figure its the same place that unhosted fae exist.

You raise a great point James, & one that I've never considered. Frodo's gradual shift during his journeys because of the influence of the Ring, his Morgul Knife wound, etc., evidently drew him closer to some of these special abilities.

When we take into account some of the quotes posted on here, it seems to substantiate the claims about low-light vision (or whatever an LM wants to call it) for Elves & those of Elvish blood, together with possible exceptions - such as your example of Frodo.

I wonder if Francesco or Gareth will address this in future supplements?

PS THE BRIDGE OF KHAZAD-DÛM is also one of my fav chapters - the battle in the Chamber of Mazarbul rocks.

I still recall the chill that ran down my spine when I first read it as a lad: when Gandalf told them that he thought he saw Black Uruks of Mordor & (at least one) Cave-troll approach. That passage shook me, though their valiant stand against the odds inspired me.

Don't even get me started about the Balrog. Brr...

Just going to throw out there that the Moria section is my favorite from the books as well (and is probably a big part of why "Fellowship" is my favorite movie out of all of them as well).

Interesting about Frodo and Gandalf. I didn't recall that about Gandalf at all.

Yeah, the Moria parts are a big part of what I thought of when I first played D&D 20 years ago, has always stuck with me. Was my favorite part of the movies as well, the Balrog looked incredible!

"It was dark, but not too dark for the night-eyes of Orcs, and in the star-glimmer they must have offered their cunning foes some mark, unless it was that the grey cloaks Of Lórien and the grey timber of the elf-wrought boats defeated the malice of the archers of Mordor."

The Lake-Town Sourcebook states that Hobgoblins can see perfectly well in total darkness. If they can, I don't see why Goblins and Orcs cannot.

Of course any author decides what goes in his system and what not. The question here is wether the ability is based on evidence from the book(s) or not. In addition, it is interesting whether this evidence is "hard" (i.e. unmistakable) or more "soft" (i.e. ambiguous passages).

Don't get me wrong, I don't rate the decision in any way, for me it is pure curiosity. After identifying these passages, it would be time for the evaluation of this decision.

From personal experience on a number of Middle-earth topics I am well aware that more often than not it is hard to find undisputable evidence for such questions in Tolkien's writings. Thus my ramblings

Cheers
Tolwen

I got here late, and I think it's all been said.

For my two pennies' worth, elves and orcs must see better than men when there's at least starlight-grade illumination, but not see in absolute darkness.

It's conceivable that Calaquendi elves (for our purposes, essentially: Noldor) who exist equally in both the Seen and the Unseen worlds can see stuff on the other side that's not visible to the rest of us.
But even when the early First Age (but pre-Calaquendi) super-Elves were living by starlight, the Valar “feared for [them...] amid the deceits of the starlit dusk” (Silm ch 3) and spent a lot of time and effort building the Great Lamps and then the Trees for their benefit!

Orcs stole Gollum away from his wood-elf guardians on a moonless and starless night.

• I note that despite the title 'Folk of the Dusk' (N.B. 'dusk' is still half-light!) is not stated to depend on lighting levels. The blessing takes effect when an elf is "inside a forest" etc., and is not countered by the presence of lighting. (I just had to check whether elf-lamps actually countered their advantages! Nothing in the wording suggests that.)
  
  
• There's even less evidence to support dwarves having much ability to see in the dark. But I do like the interpretation in Burning Wheel, that rather than having greater visual acuity or anything, dwarves are just by their life experience undaunted by the dark and better at operating in conditions of partial illumination.
  
  
• @farinal's: "Remember Elves boasting on how could they easily shot the fellowship when they enter the Lothlorien and it was during night if I remember right."
  That quote referred to how the elves could shoot the Fellowship on the basis of how loudly they were breathing, not because they could see them. I use that quote as proof that elves can't see in the dark.
  When Haldir wants a proper look at Frodo, he needs to shine a little lamp in his face!
  
  
• Aside: @Garn's: "Spirit World* /// *I cannot recall Tolkien's "official" terminology for the realm of existence that the Barrows, Corpselights, Nazgul / wraiths, etc lived/functioned within. I figure its the same place that unhosted fae exist."
  Tolkien never presented us with any such. In none of his mentions of "worlds invisible to mortal men" (plural) is he even clear on what different ones there might be. In fact he only ever appears to have engaged with one, so it's reasonable for us to stick with that.
  
  In the text of LotR Gandalf refers to "the Unseen", and "the wraith-world", and how Glorfindel appears "on the other side" (Many Meetings). Gorbag also says of the Nazgûl: "they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." (The Choices of Master Samwise).
  We read of the wearers of the Nine entering into "the realm of shadows". (Of the Rings of Power...) Gandalf says that wearing a Ring of Power ultimately leaves one "walking in the twilight" (The Shadow of the Past).
  And the one place that a name ever warrants capitals is where the houseless fëa [...] passed into the ‘Realm of Night’. And the capitals are still only assigned by the speaker(s), rather than by Tolkien the narrator. (Laws and Customs of the Eldar, HoMe 10)
  There are pros and cons to all of them. I've generally tended to go with the "wraith-world" one for technical discussions, but that would rarely be appropriate as an in-character designation. The concept is meant to be arcane and little understood, so it's probably right that there shouldn't be any one universally used term for it. But assuming that we want our Player-heroes to be special enough to be among the select few who engage with this cool stuff, it'd be helpful to have a term for it. The metaphors of shadow, twilight and night are very Tolkien, so maybe they should be used -- but Tolkien uses them so much they could be quite ambiguous... Maybe just "the other side" is the best one.

Cheers,
--Os.