The Wood-elf hero in my play-by-post game chose The Speakers as her initial Virtue. Since just letting her blithely get information from anything and everything doesn't get her many rolls (and the corresponding opportunities to earn AP), I've been making her figure out what skills to use to get useful clues from different things. This is easy with people, or critters since they have voices after a fashion, but inanimate objects are quite another matter. So I've been quizzing the player and trying to get her to think like one of the Firstborn of Ilúvatar. What is the most basic, most primal, most fundamental, most essential force? Of what are all things made?

The answer of course is Song. The world was conceived in song, song of Ilúvatar is a part of every single aspect of creation. Knowing the proper way to address a thing greatly aids in the puzzling out of the information provided; in game terms, it affects the TN of any Riddle task that the hero might attempt. Yes, one could argue that the hero should know this already, but I want the player to have that 'Ah ha!' moment and gain a deeper appreciation of the legendarium. It's these little nuances that I think makes people appreciate and immerse themselves in the milieu. So that's it, just a way I chose to address something in a way which encourages players to be in the world and their heroes' heads a little bit more.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Here is the PM I sent my player:

One of the characters in my game uses this Virtue quite a bit. At first it seemed silly that he was "talking" to inanimate objects, but then he and I both began describing it as a change in the wind, a path that wasn't noticed before, a melody in the sound of the water.

Once we got past the idea that it was a conversation and described it more as a feeling or subtle change that would occur naturally it really added an element to the game.

I think he uses a mixture of riddle, song and courtesy depending on what he is communicating with.

I really like this virtue, it is a great way to add a mysterious and alien feel to the elves, like they know something men do not.

I like your tying of Song back into the song of Ilúvatar.

In Middle-earth, matter is not made of quarks or strings or branes. It's made of notes and bars and harmonies.

Are you sure the hard TN is really appropriate? Was that specific instance of using the virtue harder than most instances, or do you use high TNs for most uses of the The Speakers?


While I get your rationale, having only a 30% chance to succeed at something you spent a major character resource for seems a bit harsh, not to mention that the text of the virtue seems to suggest that this is something you can do quite...naturally, for lack of a better word.

IMO, I'd set the TNs about the same as for a social interaction with a thinking creature. A character with the Speakers is the only one that can do this sort of thing, and it is basically elf magic.

IDK, it just seems to me that the whole point of the virtue is that you can communicate with the natural world as naturally as you can with the intelligent, social world, if not moreso.

Agreed.

I gave it a high TN because it's exactly not like having a conversation with an intelligent or even self-aware being. The only reason it has information at all is because it was acted upon by a being which possesses a fea. The default TN 14 I reserve for self-aware beings such as beasts (i.e., I step it down further for a self-aware target.), and for intelligent beings – given they possess more sophisticated means of expressing themselves – the TN is 12 (yet another step down). Here's the hierarchy I envisioned, all the way down:

Base task = Epic Feat (Daunting + great success)

• Step down to Daunting for having The Speakers.
• Step down to Severe for a recent occurrence.
• Step down to Hard for knowing the right song.
• Step down to Moderate for target being self-aware.
• Step down to Easy for target being intelligent.
• Step down to Very Easy for target having great fea.

Please note that the hero in question would have had a much higher chance were she rated even one level in Riddle. She had a 30% chance with zero Success Dice. Any non-Speaker in her shoes would have been unable to accomplish it owing to the need for a great success. Hope, of course, is what gave her most of it. Wits 7 helps a lot in such circumstance.

Fair enough. Like I said, I get your rationale, I just think it makes sense for using the virtue to be a relatively normal activity for the character with the trait, and basically impossible for someone without it.


When I said that it's like talking to an intelligent creature, I was referring exclusively to someone with the virtue, which is both magical, and something that only an elf can do. For that person, it's as natural as having a conversation, albeit a different thing. Just like walking and breathing are both comparably natural, even though they are very different tasks.

I understand your viewpoint, doctorbadwolf, but my aim was to make The Speakers special while also not running roughshod over other heroes' abilities. Why make a Hunting roll to follow tracks when you can just ask the ground where the orc went? The Speakers gives the hero options that others lack, but interpreting the data ought to be trickier.

Think of it as one of us having the ability to perceive quantum vibrations; you would only learn what a given vibration meant through experience, and the variables are numerous and complex. Only a skilled individual could consistently glean useful information from said vibrations. Having even a single Success Die in Riddle would be a huge help, and two dice would on average guarantee success (this presumes Hope is spent, of course).

In my opinion, powers like The Speakers can be the salt in the soup of atmospheric gameplay. The people I play with use such powers very rarely and I am happy about that. We have one elfen character in our group and he did not use The Speakers "openly" yet. He describes the behaviour of his character very detailed, explaining that he stands still very often, listening to the wind, to the sounds of the forest, to the water of a river. The whole environment speaks to him and this is completely natural to him but so far the other players don't know that. One day, he will want to know something specific from his environment and will ask a question to a river for example. This will be the moment where I will let all other characters look through the elves eyes. They will finally recognise how different he sees the world around him. The player of the elf and I will describe this moment together, will create a really atmospheric picture and will use fitting music to create the right moment. I want to create a memorable moment, want to surprise the other players. I think that you can get your players to appreciate such powers so that they do not use them lightly. I do not want to make these kind of powers more difficult to use.

My player has gone to similar atmospheric efforts, and I've rewarded her for it numerous times. I work extensively to give her uses of The Speakers a more authentic feel. Remember the old Western cliché of the native tracker who puts his ear to the ground and reveals impossible details about pursuer or pursued? That's what this is, in my mind. Sure, she can hear the voices of rock, wind, and tree; but can she correctly interpret what those tell her? If she wanted to invoke Elven-lore for an auto-success, I'd be just fine with it. She makes the rolls so she can potentially earn AP. Only worth rolling if I provide her with a challenge.

Side note question: Was the character created with the virtue, or gained it in play? If the first, isn't it reasonable to assume that they have already gained experience in how to get info from different types of things?

If the second, did someone teach them how to do it? If so, wouldn't that person have shared information on how to interpret information from different types of things?


Anyway, to address the balance issue you bring up, all The Speakers is is a "use these skills/resources instead of these other skills of equal value" ability. It's not at all unfair or unbalanced to have an ability that lets someone use riddle, song or insight instead of explore, search or awareness to get roughly the same info, at roughly the same difficulty.

Whether you're using hunting to read sign in order to find the orcs, or whispering with the trees and making a song roll to get the same info, you are using a skill you've put ranks in to get information, with a chance of success based on the activity and your investment in the skill.


As LM, it's your call, but for me, I would consider the noticeably harder TNs to do things with The Speakers rather than with other skills to basically make that virtue a trap option, especially considering it's price.

UndeadTrout,
Adding a few more thoughts to the mix, I agree with you that music undergirds reality in Middle-earth. My first thought is to make a distinction between communication that involves the player-hero expressing her or himself, and communication that involves receptivity only. Song seems more expressive while Insight, for example seems more receptive. If the play-hero is gathering information from something that can itself enter into dialogue, then Song seems appropriate. However, if the "thing" is an object without a dialogical capacity, then a skill that is receptive seems more appropriate. Gathering information from inanimate objects then becomes a listening not a speaking, or Singing in game mechanics.

In this sense, encourage the player to really attune themselves to their skills and those that are expressive from those that are receptive.

Personally, I would place simple receptivity, that is, gathering information from inanimate objects lower on the difficulty side than those that require expression. Also, I would have different criteria entirely for adjudicating a TN when an inanimate object (receptivity) is involved from a living subject involving an expressive dialogue.

For inanimate objects, I mig suggest something like this:

An event recently "imprinted" on the object (easier TN) versus an event whose "imprinting" is temporally distant from the listening (harder TN)

An event "imprinted" on an object in the Free Lands (easier TN) versus an event in Dark Lands that the player-hero is gathering information from (harder TN)

The object itself possesses an enduring nature (easier TN) versus a fluid nature like water or wind (harder TN)

Other criteria might be the psychic-strength of the imprint: The dying of an Elf torn asunder by a Warg versus the sweet melody of Elven song as a Wandering Company passed through.

Just a few thoughts for the inanimate object question. But it seems to me that ultimatley the best guide in all this would be Legolas' listening to the stones of Eregion and the sad sound of Nimrodel for example.

Regards,
E

I just wanted to note that defining "dialogical capacity" is going to be the problem. One most likely every LM is going to have to decide for their own campaign.

To me, a fire is capable of communicating. So is a rock (to a lesser extent) as well as a mountain (to a much greater extent). The fire communicates via rate of fuel consumption, fire temperature, wind convection, dispersal of sparks, etc. The Mountain is going to put tectonics into play - earthquakes, gas content and release rate, geothermal heat venting, erosion, water flow, production of dirt (mixture of rock particulate [sand], clay and compost) etc, generally being long and slow - rather like Entish and possibly longer. The rock, being quite literally a "chip off the old block" would be far less capable of clear communication, similar to talking to young child. So maybe it would burst out a very short one to three word answer, tiring the poor thing out, making it sleepy and incapable of further communication.

But just because I would think of these things as being a form of communication, there is no way to know if the next LM would accept this reasoning as valid for their own campaign.


BTW, if anyone has not read it, Jinian Footseer by Sherri S. Tepper gives some idea of trying to talk to aspects of nature - numen. She focuses on a forest in this book. Later on in the series she deals with a few additional features. Don't want to spoil it for potential readers though. I'm sure there are other references although I cannot recall any others ATM.

The Speakers ability is fairly similar to shamanistic abilities in animistic societies. It might be worth having a look at animism as a religious outlook and apply that to the elves. The spirits of a place can be communicated with by a shaman asxeasily as communicating with anyone else. In the books, there are references to Legolas listening to the trees and the rocks. You get the impression that the elves with this ability move through an environment where they are constantly listening to the tone of the places they move through.

Something else to keep in mind as a criterion: the presence or absence of the Shadow. To an Elf, a blighted place would be an affront to their morals. To an Elf with The Speakers, it would be an assault on their senses. Think of it as being a psychic sensitive in some horror franchise: you can see blood on the walls, hear ghostly screams and murmurs, feel eerie flashes of cold or heat; not at all a pleasant thing.

Depending on the situation, would that make it easier or harder to glean info?

For instance, a psychic in a horror film would know with certainty that evil things had happened/are happening there, without even needing to try.

I'd probably allow for checks to figure specifics out in such a place, but at the risk of gaining shadow upon failure.

Extending the original idea to answer your question, the problem with using The Speakers in a Shadow influenced area is both the amount and type of data received in response.

So in a situation like UndeadTrout established, the Elf (psychic) would walk into some ruins and ask the fairly innocuous question "Who lived here?". The response the stones might give, because they too have been touched by Shadow, would be equivalent to "horror movie fan service" an unhelpful and unwholesome lingering upon blood, guts and gore for several minutes, that answers the question, but perhaps only as a 5 second flash of someone's mutilated form. (Take special note of the time disparity.)

The question has technically been asked and answered, but in the least helpful manner possible. The Elf is now burdened with screams ringing in his ears, the taste of blood in his mouth, memories of carnage which might inflict Traumatic Stress, etc. Roleplaying some negative impact from such a scene might be completely legitimate. However if the "memories" received are extreme enough, the Elf might even suffer Corruption or Madness.

I would not recommend talking to the stones in the Dungeons of Dol Guldur.

A corruption test would certainly be in order.

Gotta say, I generally....dislike the "save vs madness" trope, though. Probably why I didn't think of it in those terms.

Are there any examples of the evil of a place (or similar?) sending someone into madness in the Legendarium? I'm blanking on that. Palantir don't count.


Anyway, I would increase the difficulty, require multiple tests, with the player not knowing which gets the info and which saves them from being disturbed by what they find, etc. How hard it is and how likely corruption is would depend on the place and how strongly blighted it is, or course.

Not that I recall. Basically we've got Frodo but with him carrying the Ring, it's a poor example. Anyone more familiar with the HoMe books want to chime in? Definitely an area where I'm not as well versed.

Lovely discussion, everyone. I'm only sorry to be joining it late.

There's only really that one example of The Speakers in the whole of LotR: Legolas reporting on the trees and the grass of Hollin no longer remembering the Elves, and only the stones lamenting them...
That passage doesn't give us clear evidence of Legolas communicating with the natural world to ask questions of it, only reporting what he gleans from 'listening' to it. That might imply that a Speaker can only learn what the natural feature is expressing at the time. But as Legolas picks up the reference to the ancient elves of Eregion from the stones of that land, it seems more likely that their 'song' contains the whole of their experience.

The Cultural Virtue in TOR is clear in interpreting The Speakers as being able to "communicate with almost everything," which therefore allows the Player-Hero to directly ask the questions he wants answering. But I think I'm inclined to refine that position for inanimate things and treat it as a feat of 'listening' and interpretation, and not actually dialogical. In this I'd favour the TOR rules': "to interpret the words of the stones in a path requires a roll of Riddle".

I do agree that it's good to emphasise the role of Music and Song in Middle-earth. And TOR's Song skill encompasses all faculty and appreciation of anything song- or music-related, so it certainly can include interpretation as well as proactive expression.
But my take on the status of song in Arda is actually that what Tolkien (via the song-focussed Elves) calls Ainulindalë -- the Song of the Ainur, or loosely, the Song of Creation -- is metaphorical rather than intended as a literal song. After all, the Ainur at that stage in the 'Timeless Halls' (itself a metaphor for an existence that the minds of incarnate beings cannot even conceive) had no physical bodies, and did not use voices to express themselves.
It's then open to LM opinion whether to go with the interpretative aspect of Song, or to favour Riddle. I'd say either is applicable, with maybe just a degree of difficulty -- 2 points on the TN -- separating them.

The Speakers isn't meant to be overpowered...
Firstly: the text says The Speakers can "communicate with almost any living being". It's worth making plain that this should exclude beings with their own capacity for actual language! The talent of The Speakers involves a receptivity of the fëa to the osanwë-expression of spirits of the natural world, which language-using beings other than elven Speakers cannot access owing to their dependency on the tengwesta language-faculty of their hröar.

Secondly, this Virtue isn't the only way of talking to the natural world. More specific talents of speaking or understanding animal or bird speech mustn't be equalled, let alone trumped by The Speakers.

Thirdly, Legolas clearly has this Virtue, but he doesn't use it a lot... Or -- like the player in was it hirobumi's game? -- he uses it quietly off-camera and doesn't overtly and directly share what he learns from it with his Companions. So it's up to us LMs to get its prevalence right. Setting the difficulties high is one approach, but the other thing might be the time requirement. Especially with inanimate entities, a Speaker might have to listen to their 'song' for a long time before they get round to 'hearing' commentary about the thing the Speaker is wanting to learn about. That could explain why elves seem aloof a lot, or spend so much time staring at leaves...
I certainly think The Speakers shouldn't return instantaneous information in response to a whim in the middle of a scene, but should require time and contemplation, and therefore a deliberate effort on the part of the elf Player-Hero.

I thought I was going crazy.


Osric: That's an awesome post. You've hit upon much of the source of my reasoning for the natural world holding plenty of information (even things long lost, not just recent events), and elves with the trait being able to communicate with most everything.

I do like the idea of it being a long process of listening to the world around them and such.

However, I think of a given in game use of the trait as a sort of narrative control, which is, in turn, something I think players have to have to some degree. It's not really that the elf character is walking up to a tree and asking if any kings have died thereabouts recently. What's happening is that the character is perceptive to the trees and stones, etc, all the time, is listening more closely as they quest to find the fate of the missing monarch, and his listening leads him to a specific grove, where the knowledge he seeks can be found.

So, I think (for me) it makes sense to have a mix of situations. Sometimes the information is right there, because the stones of that place remember the slaughter of the free people by the evil orcs, and sometimes it requires time, and maybe multiple song, riddle and/or insight tests to seek out the information.