One counter to the lack of Travel skill would be the activities of the Wandering Companies in Eriador. They go back and forth from Rivendell to the Havens, and not all of them are leaving M-e. But perhaps that could be encapsulated in a specific background and the skill left at zero?

Isn't Lembas basically Honeycakes?

Don't get me wrong, I generally dislike just blatantly copying another culture's virtue, but I think in this case we're stuck - Lembas can't be better than honeycakes, because honeycakes is already one of the best virtues (how do you outdo "+1 fellowship pool" and "-3 to all travel TNs" without just straight-up breaking the game?)

On the other hand, it certainly can't be worse then honeycakes, because it's freaking lembas bread.

And, of course, there's the stacking problem:

Eventually, Lembas bread is going to make it into the actual game. Character creation will not change that much as the setting advances - the game mechanics just aren't that complicated - and the "Big Strong Burly Man with the Huge Beatstick" is a very popular gaming concept, so Beornings will continue to see play in both the "Moria" edition and the "War of the Ring" edition (whatever the actual books are called).

So Fellowships with both a Beorning and a Lorien Elf are going to happen; if the mechanics are identical, there's no problem, they don't stack. If the mechanics are similar, but not quite the same, things will break.

Only choice I see in this case is copy-paste.

***

I think at this point we need to make a distinction - is this thread about Rivendel Elves, or is it about Lorien Elves? I'm absolutely certain that the people publishing the books will treat these as two different cultures, so we should as well.

(Aside from the Lore reasons, which are both numerous and compelling, there's also the reality of Cubicle 7 being a Content Publisher and needing to fill space. Plus there's the arrangement of things to consider - there are only three groups of elves on even the very large "Hobbit and Lord of the Rings combined" map, and it would be odd indeed if one of the three different core books failed to include an Elf Culture - a substantial portion of the player base, especially females, would be rather annoyed at the "oversight".)

I don't think Rivendel Elves would have Lembas at all, and for Lorien Elves it's "honeycakes copy-paste" - it's the only way to do them justice without breaking things.

This link tends to suggest Lembas was restricted to Lorien. Lembas

If anything, the Elves of Lorien were less prone than those of Rivendell or Mirkwood to adventure. They certainly were isolated enough for dark rumours about them to develop in Rohan. So we are probably safe in making them a non-PC culture at the moment.

Lembas is mentioned in Children of Hurin - it was around in the 1st age and so is likely to be known in various places.

It was specifically linked to Melian, however, and seems to have been not common knowledge.

However, I think you may be forgetting the bit in letter #325 where Tolkein says,

vs

You crack me up Voidstate!

Yes, I'm afraid this is the other side of the good professor - he apparently experienced a number of problems with Oxford security over these types of comments .

Armegil,

I've been carefully reading your recommendations on the Noldor & I like what you've done.

Adding the beryl is a nice touch - I've always wondered if the stone that Glorfindel left in the road carried any additional powers (not implied in the text, but it works in an RPG).

Half the endurance may be a bit much, but it offers an out for LMs who wonder about the absence of healing in terms of the stereotypicaly clerical types from a certain other game .

Matching the skills with the Elves of Mirkwood works, but I especially like how you added the Guardians of the Havens. The quote from The Silmarillion is chilling.

Are you going to pdf this once you finish?

So I have been thinking about this....

Should the Elves be represented by culture (Lorien, Rivendell, Mirkwood) or sub groups (Noldo, Sindar, Nandor)?

To me the Elves of Mirkword seem more like a good version of wood elves but not the Sindar that also live there.

I'm leaning towards making cultures of Noldo and Sindar regardless of living as possessing the same culture.

as an example would the Iron Hills Dwarves be there own culture or do the Dwarves of Lonely Mountian suffiecently represent the House of Durin?

Telcontar,

You raise a point that's also been troubling me concerning TOR & the cultural groups. I've given it careful consideration, & I'm currently leaning toward your latter suggestion (Noldor, Sindar, etc.)

That said, it gets a bit tricky with the other groups. Take your Dwarves' recommendation for example. I agree with your question about their origins, & wonder how TOR will handle them in their future releases (?) I hope that they include Dwarves of the Ered Luin in Errantries of the King.

I presume that Cubicle 7 is attempting to work around the license restrictions by breaking them down regionally. Otherwise, they could describe the Dwarves more by their seven houses, however, they then stumble into the whole description issue from the other books.

IE: In addition to the Longbeards, we have Tolkien's various iterations as he developed the houses, such as the Broadbeams & Firebeards, et al.

Sorry I haven't responded on this earlier. Been swamped at work...

I tend to agree with the idea of having Lembas be an an Elves of Lorien Virtue. Helps to keep the Elves of Lothlorien different from Elves of Mirkwood and Rivendell/Lindon. Especially since the Fellowship left Rivendell without Lembas...

I think Bobchuck's analysis is spot on about Lembas/Honeycakes as well.

All of these were part of my reasoning behind using Miruvor of Imladris and leaving Lembas for the Elves of Lorien Heroic Culture...

Thanks Mim.

I too have wondered about the elf-stone Glorfindel left on the road. Thus the Beryl seemed appropriate. The Guardians of the Havens also seemed a logical option. I am glad the Silmarillion quote had it's intended effect.

Not sure about what you meant by the "Half the endurance may be a bit much" comment? Is this in reference to the Beryl's effect?

And yes, I plan to make this a PDF when it is finished. Am going to put some artwork in as well.

Here is an example. It is based on Anna Lee's "Ecthelion" painting. My version is still a work in progress:


Not completely happy with the armor and mail yet. The sword also needs more work. Maybe Jon Hodgson can give me some tips!

Whoa, these are cool! I like your pic & the house crest. These are nice touches.

I've been re-reading the rules concerning Endurance & now I see where you're going with that, so disregard my previous post .

BTW, I've also been mulling over your points about Lembas & Miruvor & I agree - I suspect this is also what C7 does in terms of regional variations & such.

Sorry I haven't been on lately. Looking to possibly replace the wife's car (it's at the age where it is 'nickel and dime' ing us with repairs) so I have been spending time haggling with car salesmen...

What a pain in the ...

Haven't seen many comments on the Cultural Virtues for the High Elves, so I am continuing on to Cultural Rewards.

CULTURAL REWARDS – HIGH ELVES
The weaponsmiths of the High Elves have spent long years devising more efficient ways to defeat their enemies. Their armories are filled with weapons and armor created using the skills of the greatest elven craftsmen.


Elven Mail (mail armor)
This mail is made of finely wrought links of elven steel made using the techniques the High elves have perfected through long years of strife. It is light, corrosion resistant and offers protection that even Dwarven craftsmen might find hard to match.

The armors encumbrance is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0).
You are allowed add +2 to the dice roll when making a protection test.


Weapon of renown (swords, spears or dagger)
The blade of this weapon was forged using techniques refined by the elves through the ages. It is unnaturally sharp, corrosion resistant, and glows with a cold blue light when in the proximity of Orcs, Goblins and Trolls. The illumination provided is dependent on the proximity of the creatures. At its brightest the weapon glows with the strength of a torch.

If you roll a great or extraordinary success on an attack using a weapon of renown, it automatically inflicts a Piercing blow.


Elven Longbow (great bow)
The High elves have always favored the great bow for its strength and range.

When you get a G on the Feat die using a Elven Longbow, inflict extra damage equal to your Damage rating (regardless of the level of success).


Let me know what you think...

Also added a link to the .PDF format of this to the original entry on the first page...

With regards to you elven mail cultural reward, did you consider using an additional die for the protection test as opposed to a straight addition (+2)? It feels like you are crossing an explicitly stated game feature: protection provided by armor expressed in #d, and protection provided by headgear expressed in +#.

For any of three types of mail, reducing the encumbrance by 2 is nice. It moves it in the direction of the next lighter armor type, but still not quite as unencumbering. Then, expressing the craftsmanship as being the next level up seems more intuitive. An elven mail shirt protects as well as a regular mail coat, etc. The elven hauberk could be 6d, though I would limit this to a more expensive cultural reward. That's my conservative tendency.

Thoughts...?

I also don't like the +2 since it makes the armor act like a helm, but didn't know if providing an extra die was to much.

Because of the above, I have been considering changing it to either an additional die, or, the ability to re-roll one die (and keep the best result). The second option is one that I am leaning towards since it would not make the armor as clearly superior. If you roll high on all the dice provided by the armor, the re-roll is less significant. But if you rolled a low number on a die, then the re-roll could make the difference...

What if you limit the elven mail to "elven shirt of mail" similar to the way dwarven hauberk is limited to mail hauberk? Then, keeping the endurance the same (or possibly lowering it by 2), you can increase its protection by one die. Essentially, making the mail shirt protect like a mail coat but without the encumbrance normally associated with the added protection.

Another thought, the dwarven hauberk provides a benefit on the invocation of the attribute bonus. Its benefits doesn't come free. Interesting, no...? Many of the rewards that provide combat advantages, offer them conditionally as opposed to out of hand. That's worth considering in your final form of the "elven mail."

I looked at the Dwarven-wrought Hauberk while designing the Elven mail, but didn't want to just clone it. I wanted to add something new to the game, while maintaining the flavor of the other rewards.

First I thought of the additional die, that seemed to throw off the injury ratings at the higher levels of armor a bit much.

Then, I though about having the player spend a point of Hope to activate an additional protection die. Spending a point of hope for the re-roll is also a possibility, though either of these are more of a gamble than spending a point of Hope for a known benefit (like the favored body attribute bonus for the Dwarven-wrought Hauberk).

Since they were more of a gamble, I thought having them tied to a Hope expenditure might make them less attractive. Does the player want to spend a point of hope for a possible roll of 1,2, or 3?

These were some of the additional things I considered. Then I figured, go with the +2 to the protection roll and see what the community thinks. So far your comment about the armor seeming more like headgear matches my thoughts when I made that compromise exactly.

I am hoping that additional comments will provide a final solution on which approach feels "right" to the community.


I also wanted to make the Weapon of Renown a unique reward. After all, the swords Orcrist and Glamdring were so feared by the Orcs and Goblins that "Biter" and "Beater" were remembered with terror and hatred 6,000+ years after the Wars of Beleriand.

But the King's Blade reward is already a very potent item, and I felt that making anything significantly better might be stepping to far over line of game balance. So I kept the Weapon of Renown as basically a King's Blade with the added orc detection ability.

Again, hoping for more comment from the community before making the final decisions...

Thoughts everyone?

Armegil,
I walked down exactly the same path with my version and came to almost the same conclusions.

I have to say though I think I like your idea of rerolling a protection die as opposed to a flat +2.

The way I looked at it was that in regard to quality of goods the Elven stuff would be the best and everything else would kind of filter down below them.

A couple of salient points leap out at me concerning the balance of Middle-earth:

Armegil, you mention the Weapon of Renown as a unique reward & use Orcrist & Glamdring as an example.

Telcontar, you emphasize the "quality of goods" regarding Elven craftsmanship/forging.

You both hit it on the head in keeping with Tolkien's (& C7's) balance .

Maybe the re-roll is on the Feat die, a not so uncommon mechanic in TOR...?

Dont like the Cultural blessing since I dont see Noldor, who is part of the Calaquendi, like things to be under earth or in dark forest. And I would base it by the dark acts of Noldor and their pride (like the kinslaying, dark oaths and such) part of their culture. I would do it something like this:


CULTURAL BLESSING
- Burning flame of Feanor -
"For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife."

Noldor are proud people and their burning passion are one of their highest traits but also their greatest flaw and can drive them to do actions that cannot be undone.

• Noldor can by gaining 1 Shadow point, get their current Hope as a plus modifier in their next skill roll. If the feat die on that skill roll is Gandalf, the Noldor elf dont gain any shadow point.


Could seem to be useless since the price is high, but I think it fits and lets Noldor elf be very dark and shadow driven at the same time can be very powerful (which Noldor are) without overbalancing it too much.

good stuff

My Next adventure series is a four parter called the Last Lights of Gondolin

Going to have the party stumble in 'something' from the first age, 'something' that will put them in a quandry with what to do with it, but once news has leaked out will play upon the darker side of those of the Golden Wood

Nicking some of the stuff you have been outlining in this thread.

Thanks again for the comments Eluadin!

When I was designing the Elven-wrought Mail reward, I did consider the roll two feat dice and choose the better option. Ultimately, I rejected that choice for two interrelated reasons:

1. It duplicates the Hobbit's Lucky Armour reward, and I am trying to minimize duplication/cloning existing rewards...

2. In the game mechanics, the feat die seems to represent the random factor involved in combat and skill use. The success dice represent the actual training and practice involved in the usage of weapons and skills.

For instance a beginning adventurer (weapon or skill 2) is relying about evenly on luck and skill (average feat die = 6.5 and average success dice = 7, total = 13/14). A more seasoned adventurer (weapon or skill 4) is relying more on his training and experience (average feat die still = 6.5, but average success dice now = 14 for an average total = 20/21).

Against the average TN of 14 the seasoned adventurer might succeed on skill and practice alone, where the beginning adventurer needs a little "luck" even when the success dice roll high.

That is why I am going to use a re-roll of 1 of the protection dice (d6) provided by the armour and keep the best result. The superior craft of the maker will come into play by allowing the chance to re-roll a low die. But if you have already rolled near the max on the protection dice, then there is less chance the armor protects you. Unless you roll higher than the lowest of the protection dice, it is overcome despite the superior crafting.

Hi Armegil

Great job on the Noldo!

A few notes

Cultural Blessing - people of the star.

Leave the favoured bonus when under starlight only; remove the forest/underground clause. I agree that the later are less thematic, but starlight is indeed closely tied to the High Elves. While this makes it inferior to the Wood Elves' blessing, it becomes a balancing factor against the +1 heart/15 points attribute score.

As a side note, I think the craft ranks are appropriate (as followers of Aule back in the undying Lands), especially since craft is used in a very broad sense in TOR.

Question for the Tolkien savvy: Is the line of Feanor still living in Middle Earth by the third age, or are the high Elves of Ilmadris descendants of the following of Fingolfin and of those who didn't participate in the kinslaying (as is Galadriel IIRC)?

Thanks for the comments Davio!

I probably will eventually convert my home-brew Savage First Age game to TOR. Or will start a new First Age Campaign based on TOR. Either way, I will be breaking the Noldor into three cultures, based on the Houses of Feanor, Fingolfin, and Finrod, that went into exile in Middle-earth. Your Cultural Virtue would fit in very well as a starting point for the Feanorians. But there are three branches of the Noldor in Middle-earth, and tying the Noldor Cultural Virtue to just the House of Feanor does not seem totally correct...

Also, the Noldor Lord Finrod, founded the underground Realm of Nargothrod and was known as Finrod Felagund ("Hewer of Caves"), so there is a precedent for Noldor living underground...

As for TOR, in the Third Age the various Elven "realms" have become very intermixed. This is despite the fact that three of the four Elven "realms" in the Third Age were the home of rings of power, and have been held in a state of almost "stasis" since the end of the War of the Last Alliance. The Alliance failed to achieve a lasting victory over Sauron, largely because in the end, Isildur failed to destroy the One Ring when he had the chance. And yet, had he followed the advice of Cirdan and Elrond, the Eldar wouldn’t have been able to use the Three Elven Rings for more than 3000 years to enhance their world.

The greatest cost of the War of the Last Alliance was the virtual ruin of the ancient Beleriandic civilization in Lindon. Cirdan's folk absorbed a remnant of Gil-galad's people into Mithlond and others settled in or near Imladris, but most of the survivors abandoned Middle-earth and passed into the west. Even with the defeat of Sauron, the years of the Third Age were the fading years of the Eldar. And this fading is represented by the fact that the Noldorin Culture has become that of the High Elves.

"For long they were at peace, wielding the Three Rings while Sauron slept and the One Ring was lost; but they attempted nothing new, established no new kingdoms, and lived in memory of the past."

Because of this I feel that separate Cultural Virtues for the Elven Cultures might be a little out of place in the third age. By the Third Age, the various elven cultures have become very blended in the 6000+ years that have passed since the end of the First Age. While some cultures retain more of the characteristics of their founding fathers, they are the scions of those cultures, not the pure, unchanged, original cultures. Having them share the same Cultural Virtue seems a good way to represent that blending...

Hope this clears up my thought process. Feel free to cherry-pick whatever you like, and change the other elements to fit you and your group's style. My hope is that what I have presented is at least a good starting point.

Thanks, let us know how it turns out!

Thanks for the comments Glorfindal!

The Noldor did have a precedent for living underground; The realm of Nargothrond. It's Lord, Finrod was known as Finrod Felagund ("Hewer of Caves"), The only Noldorin Realm that lasted longer in the First Age was the Hidden Kingdom of Gondolin. That was a reason why I left the virtue the same. That and the elven hearing/vision (useful in forest/underground), and the blending of culture items noted earlier in the thread...


I would agree that if you are planning on using the optional +1 Heart (15 Attribute Points) rules your change is a great balancing factor.

As for the Line of Feanor question, I believe Maglor is the only one stated in canon, to be still wandering Middle-earth...

Thanks also for your comments Mim. Hoping that the final product is useful until the official rules come out.

Updated the Text of the first post (and the PDF listed in the first post) to incorporate some of the suggestions!

Keep the comments coming, or let me know if we have beat this to a pulp?

Thanks,

Armegil

Yes it's all coming back now. For some reasons I always forget about the house of Finrod...

poor Finrod....Only Gildor to keep his memory alive!

The city of Gondolin while not specifically underground had some earth that needed to be moved for sure. Also I think Feanor in his exile in Valinor built a new home with vaults and rooms underground.

I think there may be a vague elemental thing going on:

Noldor = Gnomes/Deep Elves. Gnomes are Earth Elementals in Paracelsus. I know (pun, oops), that T was thinking more of Knowledge and the Greek Gnomos, but the Noldor do have connections to jewels, underground delvings, a closer understanding of the Dwarves and Aule, etc.

Sindar and kin= Water; hence the association with the Havens, with rivers, and music.

Vanyar= Air.

Of course, that leaves fire unattached.

In any case, both the Noldor and the Sindar build underground dwellings. I believe this is simply T's "explanation" of the fairy mound and the Si in folklore.

Thank guys, this made me smile... Too true!

Jeff,

That is very succinctly stated. I think you have summed up the elven archetypes very nicely. Though I do think fire is possibly present as the House of Feanor. After all it takes "earth" and "fire" to create gems... So maybe the Feanorians do a little double duty in the mythos.

I have to agree whole heartedly on the travel skill and the Wandering Companies. Further I am trying to wrap my head around the the Athelas plant and the High Elves. in the FOTR & ROTK books Athelas seems to be more of a Numenorian/Dunedain herb. Infact I think the of the herb ( snicker) actually has something to do with the former settlement of the Dunedain.

If you are looking at creating a healing aspect similare to elronds just make a magic healing spell or something to that effect.

Athelas would be the "heal" spell of the Dunedain. " hands of a healer are the hands of a King ". I more than likely misquoted that but something along those lines.