After reading some interesting dialogue in another thread, it got me thinking about the creative license that can be taken in TOR. Someone mentioned the distinction between what can be done with The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings and what has been done with the Star Wars EU. I would be interested to know what parameters have been set for creating new things in TOR.

One can imagine most of the roleplaying game production involves taking source material and creating a game out of it. But, how much goes into creating new things that didn't exist in Tolkien's writings? Are there rules and restrictions for adding to canon? And I don't mean just adding new stories (that's a given). I mean, are there rules for tweaking, fleshing-out, and bringing new meaning to existing canon? When do new creations begin to change the feel of Tolkien's Middle-earth?

James I was just thinking something along a similar line and created a thread mere moments after you did.

This tread may help: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=2376

That thread is a good start, but I wonder what parameters Francesco, Dom, and the team have set for themselves? Are there any particular restrictions set by Middle-earth Enterprises other than using source material outside of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings?

Obviously, the team has created new material, such as the Lamp of Balthi, the Werewolf of Mirkwood, and even Francesco's tease about Dragontide. I'm curious if there have been discussions about how these new creations add to or compliment the feel of Middle-earth.

This is important to me personally. I realize that as a Loremaster playing a game with my friends, I can do whatever I want to. I'm not restricted to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings because I don't have a license to make any money from my work. But, I have a desire to stay within the same guidelines and philosophy that the game designers have taken, simply for unity, compatibility, and the great care that has gone into respecting the Professor's ideas. It is the same desire I have to make sure my adventures are in line with published materials and not contradictory.

James,

I agree that we should try to keep as closely as possible within the professor's writing. I normally strive to make my games canon, but of course, there are exceptions .

The exceptions that I write are, quite frankly, more a matter of personal taste sans anything types of restrictive framework, in combination with the ability that we all have to utilize material from outside C7's license - you have to feel for Dom & his team having to work within these parameters...

James,

I've looked & can't find Francesco's tease concerning 'Dragontide?'

Thanks!

As this thread began almost immediately after I posted in the "other thread," I thought I may have some responsibility for "inspiring" it. Therefore, I'm reposting my "other" post here....

Prof. Tolkien also never mentioned that anyone ever used a restroom ... doesn't mean that they didn't.

I absolutely loathe it when discussions about what is canon and what is not canon spiral out of control when the mindset becomes "the creator did NOT mention something, it can never be". That is ludicrous! Canon should only EVER apply when something CONTRADICTS what has been created by the creator ... period. Just my 2 cents.

And, before this degenerates into statements along the lines of ... "Prof. Tolkien also never mentioned Death Stars ... does that mean they exist?" ... I could accept the presence of a Death Star orbiting Middle-earth as an (odd ... a VERY odd) explanation of the tools used by the gods to destroy Numenor. I could accept that all of the gods are actually orbiting, sentient satellites that enact their will through drones, etc. ... super-science. If I presented any of this for public consumption, I would merely point out that it is a different take on the subject matter that doesn't contradict any writings. It's just in the situations that Prof. Tolkien contradicted himself (or didn't state specifically) that I make a judgement call as to what I want to use. For example, my Balrog has wings ... my Glorfindel is THE Glorfindel who killed a Balrog ... my Dwarven women do NOT have beards.

Ultimately, I am accepting of different interpretations as long as they do NOT contradict the original work. Some, in fact, I find I derive amusement in the speculation. This doesn't mean I would actually use the interpretation.

Note, though, that I do NOT believe any of this to be the actual case ... I prefer my fantasy to stay fantasy and my science-fantasy to stay science-fantasy.

Mim, the tease can be found on a thread I created called The Gathering of Five Armies. Here is the quote:

This makes me anxious for Tales from Wilderland!

This also makes me wonder if Francesco and the team are putting together a document that keeps track of TOR canon. One would have to imagine that as materials become more numerous, there would be editing needed to make sure everything 'fits' with previously published information and chronology.

One of the signal moments that helped me "get" the setting of TOR was reading about the River-maidens. That's the sort of folklore-y element that I feel is at home in Middle-earth. Like Bombadil, the maidens don't need to have an obvious place in the taxonomy of spirits and mortals. They just "feel" like they accord well with the mythology. I hope I can come up with something similarly inspired.

Their parameters are less burdensome than you might think.
Normally when working with licensed material the approvals process is a major headache and is hugely time consuming.

Luckily for TOR, the rejections and out-of-bounds are already spelled out... (in excruciating detail).

It is one of the reasons I advised them to obtain pre-Silmarillion reference material to make the job even easier.

As for those parameters and especially in regard to the current Wilderland bookset; what is the Last Desert? What are the Were-worms? Who was Bladorthin? There are many, many questions that can be addressed. More-so when the iron-grip of "canon" is removed by adherence to information that The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings is not privy to, and in fact is legally bound to deviate from if developed in-depth beyond what The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings "knows".

TOR is set in a more innocent time, a time before the Tolkien Empire.
The Ring will be with you... always.

That's a good insight there FFS. I recently came across what I believed to be an error in TOR's Tale of the Years regarding the foundation of the City of Dale and I was having trouble reconciling it with what I believe to be the case.
TOR places the foundation of Dale in the 26th Century TA. A footnote in Unfinished Tales suggests that it already exists in the 19th Century. It is now my intention to ignore Unfinished Tales because it contradicts the information gleaned from the Hobbit/TOR. Hobbit trumps UT for TOR purposes.

Yeah, most of the other books are pretty irrelevant to TOR anyway.

TOR deals with a specific time in the Third Age. Not much of the First or Second Ages or even a good chunk of the Third Age is relevant so they don't even have to bother much with those books.

Is TOR going to do a Numenor supplement? No way.
Might they reference Numenor and its history for a hypothetical Gondorian supplement? Maybe.
Then, knowing where the line is can be beneficial.

I used Sauron before as an example.
The Hobbit does not know the origin of Sauron.
LOTR does not know the origin of Sauron.
Only by going beyond the knowledge of license can that be answered in "canon".

However... TOR is free (if they so choose) to do whatever they want with the origin of Sauron and be completely correct for TOR. Or they can leave it undefined and undeveloped.

I think my very first post here was congratulating the TOR team for a truly different take on Middle Earth role playing and for new interpretations (someone mentioned the Woodmen and Beornings as examples). Great stuff!
The Spiders of Mirkwood. Beautiful!

Someone else mentioned Glorfindel. Now that's a situation, since The Hobbit and LOTR "knows" nothing about Gondolin Glorfindel and a Balrog fight.
Do you see where this line is now really important?

James,

Thank you for filling me in on this - I missed your original post, so if it had been a snake it would have bitten me .

You're right concerning the excitement level everytime we read something from one of their team about their releases. I sure wish they'd give us more info.

Regarding the other posts about canon, the only point that I want to add - that everyone seems to gloss over - concerns the debate over Prof. Tolkien's other writing & TOR. Yes, if we play TOR as is we have some limitations in terms of times & places. Some of us love this & have no problem diving in, which is fine.

Meanwhile, however, some of us can also use TOR for other time frames & locales within Middle-earth, & with some fine tuning it works well. FFS makes a great case by referring to the Were-worms, Last Desert, & so forth. In addition, note how they include the Mewlips in their intro, The Marsh Bell. They never actually state that name, IIRC, but we all know who these creatures are. Very clever .

I always took it that the Wereworms of the Last Desert in the Eat of East were just made up on the spot by Bilbo, whose ability and bravery had been called into question by the Dwarfs. Sort of like defensive blustering.

That's probably true Halbarad! But, for my adventure campaign, I imagined Wereworms to be real creatures. I describe them as shapeshifting descendants of dragons. Over the last couple days, however, I have thought about that some more and I am thinking of changing the description. Perhaps a Wereworm is a dragon, possessed by an evil spirit and twisted in form. Maybe it has humanoid characteristics, such as opposable thumbs instead of traditional dragon claws. And maybe it walks on its hind legs at times. I need to keep working on this because I don't want it to simply be like a Dragonborn from D&D 4.0 or a Drakin from Savage Worlds' Sundered Skies. It needs to be more malevolent and twisted.

My Wereworms have traveled west and infested a dungeon in the Iron Hills.

Yikes, remind me not to go venturing into the Iron Hills .

Seriously though, I've always used the Wereworms as real, so I'm with both of you on this one.

What I had not considered, however, is Halbarad's point concerning Bilbo's blustering. I'd always felt that he blustered AND recalled an actual incident of one of these rare Tooks, et al (much like Isengar went to sea, etc.).

This opens up some unique role-playing possibilities for Hobbits that I'm going to mull-over; think of the fun you can have with leading your Hobbit player-heroes along about these mythical creatures & their "Mad Baggins" (or whichever characters), only to discover that they're real. The looks on their faces will be priceless...

It was just one example of possibilities to explore.

Maybe they're like the things from Tremors.
Or Shi-Hulud from Dune?
Or as someone suggested were-dragons (man-dragon -- or possibly a translated old hobbity term for Balrog?).
Or simply something made up by Bilbo, unlike like Sam's Oliphaunts.

I don't know, but interesting side-tangent you bring forth.

The Edge of the Wild is... the edge of the wild.
Some of the most ancient occupied lands that most "civilized" peoples have moved on from. How many ruins, scary monsters or other things that Sauron knows not exist out there?

Being that Sauron is one of the most ancient beings on the face of Middle-Earth, I don't think much is going to escape the Great Eye. If they are evil scary monsters then Sauron ( or his servants) probably had a role in it at some point.

Translated:
"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways. Your sad devotion to that ancient children's book has not helped you conjure up new monsters or story ideas, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the free people's hidden fortress..."

I find your lack of imagination disturbing.

Awesome reply!

I read that line several times with several different interpretations going through my head. Ultimately the one that really stuck with me was...

A Balrog rampages into The Shire, roaring a threat to all. Spewing heated air, noxious fumes and shadows while flicking his fiery whip with a crack like the shattering of a forest of oaks in an instant. In the foreground Hobbits screaming, rushing, yelling, running. Chaos... but in a trice the Hobbit's have got the makings for tea gathered and laid out out as pretty as you please!
"Cream?" the Gaffer asks.
"Oh, please do!" squeals the Balrog.

I figure it was the concentration of all that Hobbit Hope that did for him!

How about something along the lines of a Naga; the body of a worm/snake but with the face resembling that of a human.

Or a D&D-esqe Hydra. One large body with 5 dragon-like necks and heads.

The word were comes from Old English and means literally a 'man.' The word 'worm' is from the Old English word 'wyrm' and usually means a carnivorous reptile, a 'serpent' or a dragon. Putting the two together, we get the idea of a man-serpent or a man-dragon. What a Were-worm looks like can be as variant as any serpent or dragon, but the stress should be on the 'Were' or its man-like qualities. What makes the beast different from an ordinary one of its kind? I imagine the differences be like the differences between Wolves, Wargs and Werewolves, which I see as a progression of intelligence, wickedness, and purpose.

I like the way you put that!

Interesting idea. But then it is difficult to imagine a creature more intelligent, wicked and guided by stronger purpose than a dragon!

Francesco

I know! Dragons are my favorite mythical creatures. Even the Bible speaks about a creature called the laviathan in Job 41. From the context, it would appear to be a sea creature of intelligence. But, listen to these descriptions from the ancient Biblical text...

14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth? 15 His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together; 16 each is so close to the next that no air can pass between. 17 They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted. 18 His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn. 19 Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. 20 Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. 21 His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth.

EDIT: I would also add the Giovanni Diodati translation of 1649...

Giobbe 41:14-21:

14 Chi aprirà gli usci del suo muso? Lo spavento è d’intorno a’ suoi denti. 15 I suoi forti scudi sono una cosa superba; Son serrati strettamente come con un suggello. 16 L’uno si attiene all’altro, Talchè il vento non può entrar per entro. 17 Sono attaccati gli uni agli altri, ed accoppiati insieme, E non possono spiccarsi l’uno dall’altro. 18 I suoi starnuti fanno sfavillar della luce, E i suoi occhi son simili alle palpebre dell’alba. 19 Della sua gola escono fiaccole, Scintille di fuoco ne sprizzano. 20 Delle sue nari esce un fumo, Come d’una pignatta bollente, o d’una caldaia. 21 L’alito suo accende i carboni, E fiamma esce della sua bocca.

It sounds like a fire-breathing dragon to me!

Was Smaug completely evil and guided by Sauron? I would say his purpose was to take treasure. After driving out the Dwarves, I think he was satisfied to be left alone with his plunder. But, they wanted it back...

Perhaps a Were-worm desires more than treasure...

This post has been edited by JamesRBrown on Feb 18 2012, 02:39 PM

I think you mis-understand where I'm coming from, I'm all for coming up with new stories and adventuring in ME but to me the setting has a certain vibe.

ME has a being of pure evil incarnate manifested in the physical plane. ( Sauron) Think of it as the puritans who used to be convinced that the "Devil" was behind every and all manifestations of corruption in their world. The invisible world of evil had finally manifested itself in the material world and was making a play for the very souls that God held in the highest regard.

Sauron's very presence, a Power in ME, corrupts and infects nature around him. Even the hearts of Men, Elves, and Dwarves. There would be no Orcs if it wasn't for Melkor and his cronies ( like Sauron), even Ungoliant was tainted by Melkor's singing. So, there is no Wild in ME without corruption. The Wild is there because something has gone wrong. (Something is tainted or corrupted). A bear isn't evil, it could be scary or dangerous though. Wolves can seem to display evil behavior, but Wargs are evil and commit evil for pleasure.

Mirkwood is a perfect example of this, It was called Greenwood the great until Sauron appears in Dol Guldur, then we get black squirrels, Orcs, giant spiders, etc. . .all corruptions of nature.

Sauron is a being of such incredible power that his mere presence taints the land ( and hearts) and if he could get his clutches on the ring, he would enslave all of the earth.

The Wild without Melkor ( and now Sauron) is like our wild, dangerous but not evil. What has always attracted me to ME is that "Evil" was actually manifest and could be fought. You really can be a hero, unlike our real world and relativism. That's the fantasy.

So when you stated, "How many ruins, scary monsters or other things that Sauron knows not exist out there?", I thought when you stated scary, you meant evil, which in ME means it has a connection with Melkor ( for sure) and since we are in the 3rd age, most probably Sauron. Sauron was active in the South and the East( or his lieutenants.)

If you just meant big scary monsters then that's where the confusion started. In my ME, Sauron should be suffocating, confusing, ever-present, with only a few islands of respite and sanctuary. ( like the Shire, Rivendell, Minas Tirith, etc) Places where they've fought back and kept at bay the darkness which is threatening to consume all of existence. Evil is real in ME , manifest and active.