Hey all - a very good friend of mine and close gaming buddy for 20 years, has this trait for his Woodman in my TOR campaign. I prefaced that because I wanted to illustrate that this is not some newbie to RPGs or someone I can just be draconian with - I needs some feedback on this so that I can discuss this with tact etc.


Last weekend's game, he wanted to use use Determined Trait to auto-succeed at his Travel Check as they traipsed through Mirkwood (Don't Leave The Path)

The flower text of Determined supports exactly what it means. Essentially - you are undeterred in your efforts to succeed.



I was on the fence with that one. He argued (not really argued per se, but his rationale) was that he was determined to succeed in his travels and a little thing like Fatigue and tough roads ahead was not going to deter him. I'd allow it in the end, but it really got me thinking how easy it would be to "abuse" this trait.


Don't get me wrong - this hasn't been an issue and there's no problem (yet); this was only his third time playing, and he just now figured out how to utilize his traits/specialties for skill tests. The lightbulb is coming on.

A clever player (he's a lawyer - so clever and coming up with sound arguments are not something he has trouble with - so yeah he has the Clever Trait) can seemingly tie in being "Determined" with....EVERYTHING. It seems very open-ended and universal. Compare to say "Keen Sight" or "Keen of Hearing" these are obvious and practical applications that leave no question how or when they would apply.



"I'm determined to outsmart this guy." (Riddle)
"I'm determined to reach the other shore." (Swim)
"I'm determined to find a way to win this fight" (Battle)
"I'm determined to talk him into giving us the info" (Persuade)
"I'm determined to send this away in fear" (Awe)
"I'm determined to sneak up on this guy" (Stealth)
"I'm determined to...(insert skill d'jour)"
etc
etc
etc


In closing - I'm just wanting to initiate some dialogue and solicit feedback, anecdotes, testimonials, advice, or other tidbits of info that you see in regards to this trait. So that I can make a fair and spirit of the game type of stance in regards to this trait.

I don't have the page number in front of me, BUT I do know that in the rules it specifically states that traits can be used when the consequences of the action are not significant.
I would guess that a good amount of time, the consequences of rolls ARE significant (otherwise, why are you rolling?) and therefore invoking a trait (no matter how appropriate) shouldn't provide an auto-success.

For example: in our group, one character has the ability 'Keen Eyed'. Most of the time the LM asks that player to make Awareness rolls, rather than granting auto-success. However, when the player succeeds, the LM often rules that he not only sees whatever it is, but sees in greater detail because of his specific trait. So the trait provides distinction for the character and a reward (of more information), without nullifying the die roll.

For Determined, I think that it actually shouldn't apply to travel, at least not on rolls for simply seeing if a character is feeling tired. No matter how determined a person is, if they've been traveling for a long time, their body is going to get tired. They might determinedly continue forward no matter how tired they felt...

Anyway, perhaps contradicting myself, here's one other idea specific to travel. The rules state that if the players are trying to get somewhere in a hurry, they can do a 'forced march'. When this occurs, players roll again (Travel or Athletics I cannot remember): a fail gains 2 points of fatigue; a success gains 1 point; and a great or extraordinary gains 0 points of fatigue. In this circumstance, I might let the player roll, and then invoke Determined, to treat the roll as a normal Fatigue check, rather than the more difficult 'forced march'.

Good luck!

I'd let him use the trait as much as he likes, but the player that uses the trait to auto-succeed gets no advancement points and, therefore, no advancement. Award the other players with advancement points for successful rolls - especially for Great/Extraordinary successes and higher TN rolls. When the other players start advancing their skills he may get the point.

Of course, if he rolls and succeeds he can use the trait to ask for an advancement point - describing how the trait helps him to succeed. Far more lucrative for him as a player as it leads to character advancement.

From the rulebook:
Determined: when you set yourself a goal, you pursue it relentlessly.


In my interpretation it's not “I'm very good at it” (ie ground for an automatic success). On the contrary, it's “even if I fail I keep trying”.
So, to take some of your examples:
-"I'm determined to reach the other shore." (Swim)... so, if I fail my swim test, my friends are bound to save me from drowning (as Sam in the Anduin).
-"I'm determined to talk him into giving us the info" (Persuade)... so, if I fail my persuade test, I keep hassling this guy till he got angry and call the guards/punch me/walk away.
...and so on.

I agree with this, but I interpret the use of it a little differently. Determined should let you try again where other characters get only one try. I'd also allow it for situations where the loremaster has determined that the character is not physically capable of performing an action. Both of these cases invoke the Unforseen Action rule.

First let me note I am preparing to run the game and am yet to run it, so my opinions may change once it encounters real life players.

Traits have been a hard one for me as I too have been concerned about the auto success rule and some of the traits can be made relevant to almost any situation.

A couple of thing I would consider to manage traits, one I have heard is many lore masters allow traits to lower the difficulty. Also I think you have to consider how does the trait impact on the skill roll, so yes maybe the trait can be used in place of skill but is it as effective or even relevant. Finally make them earn it.

“Everyone make travel rolls”
“I use determined”
“No you don’t that’s boring”

“Everyone make travel rolls”
“Even as the wind and rain hammers Errick and his companions, like the blacksmith hammers his anvil, Errick digs into his reserves pushing on as he knows time is short and evil will soon be upon them. "common lads we must reach the pass by dawn or all is lost”
“Ok”


"I'm determined to outsmart this guy." (Riddle) – yes you come up with a comeback but it’s the next day.
"I'm determined to reach the other shore." (Swim), yes but you can’t swim and drown or when you do arrive on shore you are half drowned and have lost a load of endurance or washed downstream and nowhere near the party members who could swim.

"I'm determined to find a way to win this fight" (Battle) I would say very few adventures aren’t, again, if their description of how they are going to make this trait relevant maybe allow them a -2 to the difficulty.

"I'm determined to talk him into giving us the info" (Persuade) You maybe, but he isn’t just cause your like a dog with a bone doesn’t make me anymore likely to give you any information.

"I'm determined to send this away in fear" (Awe), I may be determine for people to be in awe of me, but that doesn’t me they will be.

"I'm determined to sneak up on this guy" (Stealth), yes but you don’t he hears you.

I could say I am determines to fly by flapping my arms fact is you can’t, I am determines to be a millionaire. This is a mind-set, not a trait or a skill set.

So say I am determined to climb this rope, I would let them use it, they don’t do it as quickly or gracefully as someone who is skilled, but in the end they get there.

Think of PO in kung-fu panda, just cause he was determined he didn’t become the dragon warrior over night. It kept him on the path to become the dragon warrior and when other may of quit he didn’t. But he still needed the training in the end.

I would allow people to use cautious for stealth and awareness because that person is naturally wary always looking out for danger and treading lightly.

Just my thoughts,

Steve

Thanks for all the replies so far. Some good info for thoughts.

It occurred to me while reading them, that perhaps its quite likely we do not all play the game following the same tendencies.

Allow me to provide some groundwork here for how our games typically go:


ENCOUNTER: An NPC is down-on-his luck depressed. Has info and assistance that we require but he's "hopeless" and full of dread. We must INSPIRE him to get him out of his funk in order for him to be at all lucid to really help us. Part of his depression leads him to be horribly skeptical that the task is at all possible by anyone and any who try will retreat and give up, and thus he's reluctant to really speak about it because he is forlorn and defeated.

LM: Narrated the scene above - tells us what we see; we already know our objective.

PLAYER1: Observes the desolate soul and uses INSIGHT successfully to determine that INSPIRE would go a long way if it is successful.

I'm playing a Hobbit (Warden) who has TRUE-HEARTED as a Trait. Although I have three points in Courtesy, I have zero in Inspire.

I approach the man anyways, introduce myself, and I convincingly explain to him our plans, our goals, and explain why we will succeed where others have failed.

The LM asks me to make an Inspire Skill Check.

I instead announce that I use the Trait of True-Hearted - explaining that my words are heart-felt and powerful and come directly from a one who speaks the truth, speaks from the heart, and any who hear me find it hard to doubt due to the passion I speak with.


LM: very well - that suffices indeed. (counts as 1 success towards the goal of those we needed for the encounter).


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now if this is similar to the way that the game unfolds for your groups, then how do you see DETERMINED working?

I specifically ask because most of the answers seem to deviate from the RAW with notions and ideas for how to use it outside the box if you will.


@ CORVO: I agree with your definition of the trait - and your two examples make sense, but I'm not sure how that plays out using the trait (as i did above) during the course of an encounter/situation to conclude with your findings.

@ STORMCROW: I like the UNFORESEEN ACTION idea. Especially in the case of something not seemingly possible. Sounds like it would be hard to adjudicate, though. As for retrying a failed roll.....that could get quite out of hand if you're allowed two chances at all skill rolls. Or do you have some sort of feelings on what/how often this can be applied, and what is excluded from this possibility?


In the end - I get now that "DETERMINED" is more about completing the goals in spite of failing a test along the way, (as opposed to succeeding in all efforts in pursuit of the goal).


What I now need then is how (using my typical model of playstyle) do you see the trait being utilized appropriately. Some example situations on how it would affect the outcome of an actual skill test done pursuit of the actual goal (such as Crossing Mirkwood - which a Determined individual would eventually succeed - but would still have setbacks along the way -- as I have now come to realize). I need to ensure that the Trait has actual play applicability in order to not make the player feel it is useless; but also constrain it's applicability to not be universally an auto-success at everything. The closer to RAW in how to use it, the better, as we try to keep the game as close to the actual game-rules as possible. So things like "allowing a second try - when usually that's not allowed" is already moving into territory of house-ruling - even if it's a good one.

Thanks again all. I want to be able to give him some very strong guidance on how it can be used. As I said - he is a lawyer so he thinks like a lawyer so the more black and white guidance I can provide the better our mutual enjoyment of the game will be. I of course want all my players to enjoy themselves, so I don't mind trying to cater to individual personality traits when I can.

OP - first, I really think you need buy-in from your player that Determined is simply not an, "I win," button.

I mean, you've clearly illustrated how it could be used as an exploit. In my estimation, you need only to explain that to your player. It sounds like this ain't their first rodeo, y'all're clearly friends, I think he'll understand.

Second, I wonder if this is something that needs or can even be defined as, in my opinion, this falls squarely in the camp of "rulings, not rules." So, a discussion at the table as to applicability seems appropriate. This is collaborative story-telling, not an LM vs. PCs thing. I believe your table's going to be your best guide on where and when the trait is applicable. Ultimately, there has to be a chance of failure or there's no real point in playing at all (or, certainly not rolling dice).

Obviously, you may not want to slow the game down to quibble over a game mechanic. In that case, I'd probably, to use yet another trite expression, "say yes, or roll the dice," since it has already been established that its real utility is in overcoming mundane challenges.

If your player absolutely must have some guidelines, I think Valerian has a great suggestion, i.e. auto-success but no possibility of Advancement Point for a use of Determined in a situation where the consequences of failure are low. Or, you might think of lowering the TN of the test by one level, e.g. a TN 14 becomes a TN 12.

See this thread below for a discussion on this topic, principally the Hardy trait:

cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?trk=cubicle7&showtopic=2343

Robin S.

My character in a Pbem has Determined and Generous traits. We are playing Tales of Wilderland and have played the Marsh Bell. In the entire time, I don't think that I have used either trait beyond giving me an insight into how my character might act in a certain situation.
I think it would be unfortunate if the traits were relegated to simply becoming a way to gain an auto success or an advancement point.

Just my tuppence on the subject.

Well, sure. But you don't need advice on how to role-play a Determined character.

Yes, but what if the type of character you normally play is self serving and mean spirited. Anti Heoes and Villainous player characters have been de rigeur for many years. These could serve as a reminder of the sort of virtuous things that TOR heroes should possess.

Traits and this whole "automatic success" rule is a little tricky. And could easily lead to arguments and debates in any group. Some say this is trying to "abuse" it, while others think that is what they are there for!

I think it is critical for any group to try to reach a "shared reality" here before play starts and to help remind each other of this when they think someone is slipping.

My own guidelines for how to apply this can be found here:

Trait Guidelines (the Wolf version)

This is what I try to do in my group and so far they seem to agree.

When it comes to "Determined"... honestly? Isn't that just to say that it is hard to talk him out of it?

If he is determined to "win" a fight.... that just means I won't be talking him out of the fight the night before. He has his mind set, and won't change it.

I would buy an automatic FAIL for anyone trying to Persuade him otherwise. :-)

Would it do anything to actually help him win the fight?... I don't know.... I doubt it... maybe if the combatants were equal in all other things, and this would lead to dramatic consequences and a good scene? Maybe.

Using my guidelines though, that would be one attack roll on Auto-Success.... what about the next one? and the next? Repetition is boring and not allowed.

Maybe allow some other bonus, like say... ignoring weary during the fight? I don't know. That would still probably see him loose against a superior fighter, but he would also have gained an advantage due to his Determination that seem to fall in line with what that trait is about? I could probably be talked into something like that if it felt right.

/wolf

I see "Determined" people not as being more successful, but simply willing to keep trying. I don't think it should be invoked to ensure that somebody succeeds at something, but instead to ensure that they don't give up. That would prevent the treait from being a super trait that could always be invoked.

For example, someone who is determined to bake a cake, won't necessarily succeed with the first cake, but eventually will accomplish it. Probably after several failed attempts.

Determined could also be useful in resisting temptation, as the character could invoke his Determined trait to resist the urge to give up.

Yeah, for Determined the player would either have to prove how the character is going above and beyond merely trying, or have previously established a specific goal that they have set their mind to. In the latter case, it would only apply to rolls directly affecting that goal, rather than everything occurring on the way there.

Hello,
We have yet to play our first full combat session, that is due this coming Sunday!
I have been reading and contemplating this thread.

This "Determined" trait now that y'all bring it up, is something to consider. Your ideas have been well stated, and would like to present my gut thoughts for your consideration.
A Hero "Determined" to accomplish something would be (IMO) a function of Willpower.
Would they have the "Will" to see it done? And I am taking a leap to tie in willpower with Heart.

In that case would it be feasible to have the player roll Heart to test his Determination?
And such action might also more than likely involve one or more other players, for instance...such as having the Determination to succeed at a battle despite the odds.

But who knows where a player might try to use this trait, and what action a player might take to see it through.

It would of course be up to the other players to cast their lot with the determined one so it may be the sort of thing that will work itself out...

Of course, any course of action where a Hero must go against his will, subject to that of his peers would see the perpetrator gain a point of Shadow at the least.

And it's my experience for previous game systems that players can be quite creative in passive/aggressive behavior resisting the perpetrator during the event.
I am not sure I would penalize this kind of behavior, given the situation.

In any case I would be likely to assign something similar to an encounter tolerance with an appropriate difficulty to the number of attempts that could be made before it becoming impossible.

Am I on track here? (Still Learning)

I think invoking Heart just to see if you get the determined bonus is like calling in the Clavary to see if to get a horseshoe.

But I could kinda see the reverse of that as a neat houserule. That is tagging traits to allow somebody to invoke an attribute without spending Hope. If it could be done a maximum of one time per trait per session it could be a nice add on for traits.

@Venger

It's your game, so take my words with light hearts, yet in my opinion you are stepping a bit too far with such interpretation of trait rules.
If you have a "determined" character have such mechanical bonus, what are you granting to the players who choose "adventurous" or "lordly" or "wrathful" or (God forbid!) "tall"?

I don't think the traits should be so important for mechanical task resolution.
As stated in my preamble, it's just the way I like my games, not saying "me right/u wrong"

Agreed. The three listed uses of traits are actually pretty complete. They govern your character's behavior; they don't change his chances of success. They are an aid to narrating your character properly.

Corvus, I appreciate your input. Thats just the sort of advice I need, thanks!
I may be just overthinking the issue.
Traits are something new, and feel somewhat nebulous at this time.

Thanks to everyone for their time and input.

That being said - I still feel that I have not really received an adequate amount of info to proceed.


There have been many of creative non-RAW ideas that can come into play - and some may even be visited at a later time. But at this time, I would like actual RAW applications shared so that I can use those examples as thought-fodder and a template for using this trait in the future. THEN I will consider 'off-label' uses of it.

Indeed, traits exist to provide an aesthetic guide for how to role-play in character, much like "alignment" is in D&D; and neither my friend nor I need advice on how to "role-play" that trait (or any others) within a character's personality. And I too would not want to see traits become ONLY a MMO type benefit to a character without their obvious personality guidance being applied while role-playing.

But traits also provide an in-game mechanical advantage at certain times to allow either an auto-success with a common skill, or to be invoked after a success of a common is determined via dice-rolling. He roleplays his character as Determined; rarely giving up or giving in; but I would like him to be able to benefit from the game mechanics of it also.

So what I am asking is for other LMs or players who have seen or otherwise conceptualized actual in-game uses as they apply to RAW for either of those two purposes. From there, I can get a better feel for how to adjudicate its use in the future. We've already discussed (which I agree) that Determined doesn't mean you're necessarily always succeed or that success is will happen initially, so when CAN it apply to have auto success or explain why something was successful (the latter I can conceive easier, though feedback and additional anecdotes would be appreciated).


AUTO-SUCCESS:
"I am DETERMINED, and thus there's no way I should fail at (Insert Skill) while I try to accomplish (Insert Task)."



INVOKING for Advancement Point:
"I succeeded at (Insert Skill) when I tried to (Insert Task) due to the fact that I am DETERMINED individual, and that trait alone proved useful because (Insert Reason)."

SK,

Let me first say I have not read all the posts on this thread. In fact, I haven't read many posts lately on any threads being consumed elleswher. So I am a little out of touch. That said, it might be worth noting how DETERMINED is used in the canon (for TOR at least, namely The Hobbit and The LotR).

Determined is used four times in The Hobbit: once of Bilbo, twice of Thorin, and once of Bard. It is not used in The FotR; and twice used in The TT. (While the semantic usage in The TT applies to Traits as conceived by Francesco for TOR, the context is wrong for understanding how a player-hero might invoke the trait. Though the context provides wonderful guidance for its usage in Mythic Battles!)

In The RotK, there a two instances of 'determined' with the proper semantic usage and right context: the first in the case of Theoden, and the other in the case of Aragorn.

In all these instances, 'determined' serves the plot where a character could have gone left, but instead went right...against odds or foresight in most cases, and sometimes learned thought (though common sense usually has something else to say about the matter!).

In my campaign, I culled the books for instances where Tolkien used what TOR calls a trait in his narratives. With Tolkien's usage as my guide, I set certain guidelines specific to each player-heroes' traits, then walked through it with each of my players. With each session, my players have become more familiar with using their traits inspired from the sources. Still, some goblin-mischief and orkish-devilry creeps into a player's usage here and there. And, on occasion, this has reaped dire consequences narratively, though seldom mechanically.

At first, they came into play almost after the fact similar to invoking an attribute bonus. For example, in The Hobbit, Chapter 1, Tolkien describes Bilbo as Tookishly determined to go on with the adventure despite his Fear at having been "struck by lightning" episode and general flummoxed Wits. I imagined this comfortable Hobbit with a low Valour rank and all too easily on the wrong-side of a Fear test. But, a Tookish streak surfaces and his fear gives way to determination. A failed Fear test or perceived likely failure at a Fear test is turned into a success, and furthers the narrative, or "in order to move the story on" (AB, 95). Granted, this takes a lot of coaching on my part, and planning.

Eventually, my players began to see how they could take storytelling initiative to invoke a trait and narrate the outcome in advance, or as the LM I suggest invoking a Trait when the players are trapped in a conundrum that in turn traps the story.

As you can see: No hard and fast rule to cover their usage; that is, unless you consider constantly returning to the sources for inspiration as the one hard and fast rule.

Just some thought from the Other Shore...

Regards,
E

Cottage Note: Developing a backstory to explain the starting Experience points of a player-hero is a great place to develop precedents for how player-heroes have already invoked Traits. This can be a wonderful time to coach them on their usage inspired by Tolkien while filling in the details of their history. In one important sense, Traits can explain much about "how" a player-hero accrued their starting Experience points, and give guidelines for usage before actual play begins.

Thanks E, and while your post is full of all sorts of info (some hard to follow), it still doesn't provide the simple answers that I have been looking for. Sorry if I'm sounding snippy - i don't mean to; however this thread has gone for two full pages now and yet still not one person has been able to provide not one example of one skill being used in one scenario in which this trait could lend itself to an auto-success or invoke after the fact to earn an advancement point. I can't either. But that's all I'm asking for. So it's becoming clear that it's unfortunately a useless trait - for the purposes of skill-use in the RAW. Yes we can create all sorts of creative house-rules, rulings, ad-hoc decisions, etc that have been described herein, but I want to start by making sure this trait - like most of all the others, has a practical application within RAW before I find other off-label uses for it.


I believe I will just have the player select another. Since you only get two traits, and traits are suppose to help earn you advancement points (when invoking) or help you succeed in skill tests, if one trait cannot be found to have such a role - then effectively, the players has 50% less opportunities to do this than other players.

Yes, I know that the trait has other uses, and also has aesthetic uses, but every player puts importance on different aspects of the game - it's what makes roleplaying games so broadly enjoyed - because it's ones enjoyment is so subjective. This player puts alot of his preference and enjoyment in the "mechanics" of a game moreso than most of other players; so if I cannot provide him any anecdotal or otherwise testimony from the good people on this board, then I feel he has a right to be unhappy with his selection thus far.


In responses to your literary findings within the actual books and "canon" of the writings, can we translate the narrative into the game mechanics of TOR rules as they are written and apply the DETERMINED trait in those instances to a common skill.....?

Oh, is that what you want, an example? You're thinking too directly. Remember the example in which Trotter uses Smoking to automatically succeed at a Stealth roll. Who'da thunk Smoking makes Stealth work?

Okay, here's an example of Determined for each of the three things you can do with traits.

Automatic Action
Hartnid wants to join a chartered company as a guide, but the leader thinks he knows the way well enough without help. The players agree that a roll of Persuade would allow Hartnid to convince the leader to take him on, but Hartnid is Determined, and refuses to take no for an answer. The leader knows Hartnid well enough to know he'll never hear the end of it, so he reluctantly agrees to make Hartnid the guide of the expedition.

Unforseen Action
Nur has been trying to Craft a beautiful piece of jewelry for his lady, but he won't be satisfied with it until he gets at least a great success on the roll. One night, while the company sleeps at his isolated hall in the Iron Hills, an expedition of orcs attacks. The loremaster rules that the company is ambushed because they were all sleeping, but Nur's player says that he is Determined, and has been working through the night on the jewelry, and should be allowed an unforseen action roll of Awareness to detect the approaching orcs. The loremaster agrees, and lets Nur roll.

Advancement Point
During a dangerous crossing of rapids on the Anduin, Nob Goodbody falls in and is swept away from the company. He tries to swim to shore. The loremaster requires five successes in a prolonged test of Athletics. Nob's player starts rolling, doing quite badly, and losing a great deal of endurance. Just as he's about to fall unconscious—and probably drown—he makes the fifth success needed and drags himself to shore. As this was a nail-biting but successful event, and since Nob is Determined, Nob's player claims an advancement point. The nearly drowned hobbit refused to give up, and saved his own life.

Thanks SC!

I really am on board with the latter two. I think those examples are splendid.

I'm not sure I fully comprehend the first one all that well (not trying to be dense) :-)


A play-by-play would be helpful to put it into perspective; but as far as I can tell, it harkons back to my original post that DETERMINED can be used for ALL skill tests in that way.

If I am DETERMINED then I refuse to take no or fail at anything thus I can auto-succeed at everything. So in reality, I do agree with your logic; however....

To which the consensus on this board from others - was that DETERMINED doesn't mean you always succeed; but that you continue to try even if you fail. Which I definitely agree with.


So if I may - what makes this skill use that you present in the persuade skill appropriate enough but not fall into the catch-all category that I can theoretically argue that I should succeed all of the time if using that as a precedence.....? Again not trying to be dense - just looking for some more clear direction to my player to recognize when it's appropriate to auto-succeed vs "you don't necessarily always succeed - you just keep trying regardless" schtick.


Thanks.

The automatic action works because the loremaster's character knows Hartnid and wants him to stop pestering him. It wouldn't work on, say, a stranger with whom Hartnid only had a few minutes to talk to, or with someone who would respond to annoyance with attack or disgust.

Any trait can be used for automatic actions with any common skill, provided you can come up with a believable justification. The justification is key; the group must agree that the invocation of the trait is relevant to the situation at hand. You can't just say "I'm Determined, so I succeed"; you have to explain why your character is Determined at a particular goal, and unreasonable explanations will be voted down. Invoking Determined to automatically succeed at a Travel roll because "my character is determined to get there" doesn't make any sense unless the character has genuinely expressed such a goal before, or the player can give a convincing reason why this particular trip is especially important to his character. "Why" your character is determined to get there must be answered.

And remember, it is demonstrably true that Smoking can be used to bypass Stealth rolls... in a very specific situation that had to be justified before it worked.

The whole point of traits is that they give your character... character. If invoking a trait doesn't add to the story of your character, if it does not seem personalized to him specifically, then the invocation is a bad one.

Traits are not about succeeding at actions, they are an aid to narration.

Sorry for being obtuse. one of my players actually has Determined, and her are some actual examples from our campaign...

Eleanor Smallburrow is a Hobbit lass in my campaign. She has the Tookish Blood background and Treasure Hunter calling. She does not seek gold and gems though these certainly captivate. She hunts stories. Those are her treasures, and she collects them, records them, and embellishes on them every now and then to entertain her guests. Her Distinctive Features are True-hearted and Determined. She asked for Determined specifically remembering that passage from the book.

Advancement Point
She was given access to maps in Rhosgobel before her Fellowship set off on an adventure. Re-copying them for use on the road was a prolonged action. The leaflets were worn with age and hardened with disuse, Radagast never found them particularly interesting. The TN was high and she chose to lower it three levels to 14 and increase the required number of successes to 6. Because the script was archaic and she hailed from the far-side of the Mountains, she required a good deal of support from one of the House elders whose age forbade her from much more than being a repository of traditions and tales from her House. The work was spread out over a number of days and she had a deadline to finish before the Fellowship left. Each day of Fellowship preparation for the coming Journey involved the player-heroes doing something, for Eleanor it was this re-copying. Each day she made her roll and narrated her progress to the rest of the company. On the last day, she needed two successes from one roll or she would not have finished before the Felllowship left. Her roll was a great success and I counted it for two successes. She narrated how Elanor finished the last bit well into the evening, but finish it she did in no small part because of her Tookish-determination. SHE GOT A SECOND ADVANCEMENT POINT IN VOCATION BECASUE OF USING HER TRAIT TO NARRATE HOW SHE SUCCEEDED. More importantly, she used the Trait tied in with her background so it wasn't a superficial usage. She had already gained an Advancement point in Vocation becasue of her initial success at this task. The use of her Determined trait to narrate her final success qualified it for an additional point.

Auto Success
My dear Eleanor again was trying to pry a story out of a recalcitrant Beorning. It was an opposed action: his Awe versus her Courtesy. She has three skill ranks in Courtesy, but he kept on rebuffing her overtures. His intimidation tactics were beginning to really annoy her, the player behind Eleanor that is. Finally, she narrated a response for Eleanor in first person. That doesn't happen often so that caught everyone's attention: "For the love of Southfarthing, I am determined to stay here all night if necessary." At that point, the player narrated how Eleanor took her pipe out and lit it up and blew a smoke ring over his head in warning that the gauntlet was accepted. The Eleanor's player said, "I'm don with this, auto-success or no?" Her Fellowship applauded her aplomb and ruled YES - THAT SHOULD BE AN AUTO SUCCESS! Who was I to gainsay it...?

Let me point out two things here that catch my attention everytime. The trait is always tied into her background or calling when she uses it, and on those grounds we accept it at the table. The question of "Why?" is always answered in the larger context of her character. She's never just determined; but the determination (when we accept it) is tied to her Tookish Blood and Treasure Hunter calling, or her Hobbit-ness, etc. For her to say she is "determined to outlast the Beorning's reticence" without a reason for being determined doesn't float the boat. That isn't Eleanor's determination, that is the player's determination...AND THAT SHOULDN'T COUNT FOR INVOKING A TRAIT.

The second guidance from the RAW is the group decides. Here, though, I interject the caveat not simply to succeed at something. No, it must be part of the Fellowship's story and the adventure in progress, or a narrative embellishment to the story being told. That is, it needs a greater purpose than letting someone dominate the game with their player-hero's traits. THAT IS GAME IMBALANCE.

Determination has played an important part in her character surviving in the Wild for what it's worth.

Regards,
E

Superb, Eluadin!

Much applaud to E! Great show! I enjoyed reading that, and surely got a lot of good info to use as fodder and thought-provocation. I will share this thread and your post especially with my player, and together I believe we can forge ahead and see what fun we can have with it.

I agree - the trait should tie in to the whole background and/or calling.