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> Dwarven Females And Beorning Hamlets, two questions
Khamul
Posted: Oct 21 2012, 09:40 PM
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There are female dwarves, to my knowledge and they DON'T have beards...right?

Second, is it popping up small hamlets around the area of Beorns farm, and if so where did the inhabitants come from, could it be former Lake Town men, Bardings or wildmen from around the Anduin Vale and the mighty Mirkwood?

...btw what would a Beorning settlement look like...and it's only Beorn himself that can transform into a mighty bear right?


/yours Khamul
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Stormcrow
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 12:24 AM
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Tolkien wrote that all dwarves have beards, and that female dwarves are usually mistaken by others as male dwarves. The implication is that female dwarves do, in fact, have beards.

The Beornings are drawn from the populations of Woodmen in the area. They don't seem to have any kinds of towns; they probably all live on farmsteads and, in the mountains, on pasture lands. At most their homes might be clustered together where farms border each other.

Beorn's descendants could transform into bears also. In the game this ability is available to player characters as a virtue.
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Garn
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 01:17 AM
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Yes, dwarven females have beards. Tolkien actually says that they do. But you can make them beardless in your campaign if you prefer, just be aware that this might be a problem later on if a TOR product makes use of a bearded female dwarf.

Another possibility is that maybe only Durin's line (the Longbeard clan of Dwarves) have bearded women. The other clans might not.


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Tolwen
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE (Garn @ Oct 22 2012, 05:17 AM)
Another possibility is that maybe only Durin's line (the Longbeard clan of Dwarves) have bearded women. The other clans might not.

Although this might have only a slim chance, given the wording wink.gif

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Tolwen


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Garn
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 04:03 AM
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Tolwen,
I meant Khamul could choose to make all the female dwarves beardless (first option) or make only the Longbeard females bearded (second option) within his campaign. We've never seen a female dwarf of any kind of any clan. Dis and I believe one other female dwarf are even mentioned, mostly in passing.

I wasn't disputing that per canon all female dwarves are bearded.

I just don't consider this to be a story-breaking change to the Legendarium. It only becomes relevant if TOR decides to make use of the idea in some manner. For most players the idea is not going to matter as they're not aware of Tolkien's position.


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Tensen01
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 06:57 AM
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I was seriously thinking about asking this very question!

As for Beorning Settlements I would imagine they would tend to copy the design of Beorn's home.

A small village with a few houses, surrounded by "oak trees and an inner thorny hedge with a high, broad wooden gate..." with possibly a ditch as well. Maybe with a central Hall fashioned in the style of Beorn's House



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Khamul
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 07:37 AM
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My thoughts too Tensen. A cluster of a few houses for protecting from dangerous animals and fell beasts smile.gif




/Khamul
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Tensen01
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 08:57 AM
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Came Across this, had to post it...

Lady Dwarf With Beard


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Halbarad
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 10:05 AM
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Hahaha...that's mental looking. tongue.gif

Anyway, first thing that jumps out about the Berning settlements is that John seems to have them in Celtic style roundhouses rather than the Long Houses of the Woodmen.
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Milo
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 10:52 AM
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Now that you are discusing personal appearance, did Tolkien stated anywhere in his books that the elves had pointy ears?
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Tolwen
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 12:25 PM
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Garn,
QUOTE (Garn @ Oct 22 2012, 08:03 AM)
I meant Khamul could choose to make all the female dwarves beardless (first option) or make only the Longbeard females bearded (second option) within his campaign. We've never seen a female dwarf of any kind of any clan. Dis and I believe one other female dwarf are even mentioned, mostly in passing.

I wasn't disputing that per canon all female dwarves are bearded.

Yes I saw it the same way. My post wasn't meant to be overly serious, but with a twinkle - thus the twinkling smiley smile.gif

Cheers
Thomas


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Mordagnir
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE (Halbarad @ Oct 22 2012, 02:05 PM)
Anyway, first thing that jumps out about the Berning settlements is that John seems to have them in Celtic style roundhouses rather than the Long Houses of the Woodmen.

Presumably because a bear fat on honey is a better fit in a round house than a long, narrow one.

Sorry, couldn't help myself!
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Garn
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 04:15 PM
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Khamul,
I think a small community is most likely with the Beornings. I know MERP placed them in villages of maybe 50-250 people, usually tucked away in somewhat odd, remote corners, particularly mountain valleys.

I'm not quite sure how TOR plans to handle Beorning settlements, but I don't think it makes sense that Beornings would be such rugged loners and individualists that there would only be a single family living in a given area. Not even assuming settlement patterns as seen among farmers/ranchers, where it is 1 family / # acres (or square mile or whatever).

Cultures and communities only exist in aggregates (groups), so for the Beornings to be considered a distinct people they would have to be grouped together to some degree. Thus I've been assuming they might live in very small communities (20-80 people total), something like a manor house (with a less formalized legal system) or commune in general living style/functionality. Basically with a local community leader and a couple of families looking to that leader.


Tensen01,
Thanks for the image.

Of course, now I'm wondering if that is a man or woman. That beard is awfully authentic looking, but way too long to be real. (It would be dipping into dinner. Not to mention facial hair is not as "soft" and flowing as that beard looks.)

Then, of course, there is the psuedo-Intel "Man Inside" sticker. But I can't read it well and it could be "M&M Inside" - which just kind of boggles the mind.


Tolwen,
Yeah I owe you an apology on that one cause I didn't read it that way. Mea culpa!


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Khamul
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 06:17 PM
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Thanks Garn, yes that is what I think too. Like a small viking village.

I liked that picture haha smile.gif That must be a girl and a very fake beard...way to soft as you said Garn smile.gif


/Khamul
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Tensen01
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 06:57 PM
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Yeah, as much as I love Lon's art, I think his Beorning Settlement is too small, it's smaller than Beorn's house alone.

For them to be considered a unified culture their settlements would have to be fairly good-sized. Not huge, but I think at least 4 or 5 full families, maybe around 20 to 30 people at the very least.

I'm working on a drawing of what I think they would look like.


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Garn
Posted: Oct 22 2012, 07:22 PM
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The smaller sized domicile is fine provided it is meant to represent the home of a single, more moderately sized family unit. There are probably very few extended Beorning families at this time, probably limited to the previous generation at most.

However, you are correct in that their should have been some kind of larger community representation. But then, if given the latter we would have complained we didn't get the former. wink.gif


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Garn!
I have yet to read the books thoroughly.
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LOTR_Nerd
Posted: Oct 31 2012, 09:25 PM
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My personal take from reading the Adventurers Book is that they live in both small communities and in lone family groups.In other words some communities are small in my find 2 to 3 families at most in a little settlement or they live as families and clans with each group having a set amount of turf to defend and build on.They all swear an oath to Beorn to defend the community at large by guarding the borders and fighting the servants of the shadow.But other than that and maybe a few get togethers a year held at Beorn's Hall they do not have contact with the other Beornings.
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malkavian87
Posted: Nov 3 2012, 07:38 AM
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QUOTE (Milo @ Oct 22 2012, 02:52 PM)
Now that you are discusing personal appearance, did Tolkien stated anywhere in his books that the elves had pointy ears?

If I recall correctly Tolkien did once mention that Elves had leaf shaped ears. Which would depending on what kind of leaf probably mean pointy.
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Osric
Posted: Nov 25 2012, 08:13 PM
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I looked at the dwarf women's beards thing really long and hard a few years ago. (2007-8)

The rest of the world of gaming has female dwarfs beardless (to avoid attracting ridicule).
But I concluded that Tolkien himself, however, whilst aware of the same need to avoid farcical reactions, must have considered dwarf women to be bearded.
This made an article in (Other Minds magazine issue 4, 2008) which I've just re-read and, almost to my own surprise, still think completely justified in running to 5 pages and 3,500 words.

I'd still welcome any responses or discussion that people might have.

Cheers!
--Os.


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