I have tried to find out if the dwarves have the ability to see in the dark, but I cant find anything about this in the books that I have (which is quite a few).

My bealive is that if they are spending so much time under ground and have so done for thousands of years they should have developed some kind of night vision. I dont mean like day-vision but something like how we see at dusk. Blank and white but can make out where to put their fetts in the dark and see shapes of things.

Your thoughts.




/Khamul

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure in The Hobbit when the party is working its way through the tunnels in the Misty Mountains the Dwarves have just as much difficulty seeing as Gandalf and Bilbo. I think there may even be a bit where they trip over, but I may be getting things mixed up with the film: it's been a while since I read the book.

I'm sure one of the more knowledgable scholars will know

You might check out this thread....
Sight

I'm not a scholar but Dwarves do not see any better than any other race in Tolkien's Middle Earth. In fact, Bilbo and Gandalf have better eyesight than dwarves did, based on the following exerpt, keep in mind it was very dark in Mirkwood near the Enchanted River where this takes place

"The Hobbit" Chapter: Flies and Spiders

Bilbo kneeling on the brink and peering forward cried: "There is a boat against the far bank! Now why couldn't it have been this side!"
"How far away do you think it is?" asked Thorin, for by now they knew Bilbo had the sharpest eyes among them.

"Not at all far. I shouldn't think above twelve yards."

It is argued that Elves have the best eyesight if there is just a little light, but not in pitch dark..

Hope that helps

Yes, true. But the dwarves managed to make their way through Moria and I bet there is not lighted with tourches all over, and where they goblins tripped Dori who was carrying Bilbo that tunnel was very dark, except for the little light that Gandalfs staff produced, but that little light managed to help the dwarves to move at high speed. To me that sounds like they might have some dark-vision, but of cause they cant see in pitch black.

In it's time Moria was very well lit so I'd expect that back when it was populated Dwarves would have had no trouble seeing while they moved about. But yeah I don't think they really have any better eyesight than any of the other races.

Yes, but that time was when the dwarves lived there a couple of hundred years ago, I dontsee the orcs maintain that, and it would prolly have broken down without maintenence.

I'm not so sure we can use quotes from The Hobbit to prove or disprove much. THe book was written in the 30s, and a lot of the details of MIddle-Earth hadn't evolved into thier final form yet. Gandalf Was really just a wizard, and not an IStari, Bilbo's ring wasn't the One Ring, yet, and so on.

Well, I don't remember any indications in LotR that Dwarves could see exceptionally well in the dark either. Neither do secondary sources such as Foster nor Tyler say anything about any dwarven dark-vision or low-light vision.

If you want to give the dwarves in your game a night vision ability then you are free to do so. I don't think anyone is going to send the game police to your house

True Gumball, its a matter of taste and game play style.

It will depend on your group if they want to keep certain D&D aspects. Some players cannot let go of their vision safety blanket or don't wish to trifle with torches.

It has been argued that dwarves can negotiate passages in the dark well because of other senses developed, a sense of the underground as it were and has been well discussed.

The goblin king's cavern in "The Hobbit" was lit by torches, indicating that even certain goblins may need light as well.

Gollum aka Smeagol, a Stoors hobbit, was able to see Bilbo on the shore from his island down in his grotto in pitch black, so a form of darkvision does exist.
Smeagol was not using the ring because it hurt him to wear it so it wasn't a magical vision by anything I have read. I also realize that the character had not been fully developed. All this is theoretical and subjective anyway.

So I entertain the notion it was a genetic trait of Hobbits that might have been dormant and was we-awakened in Gollum from his many years underground,

IMO, (and not trying to convince anyone) , It would be advantageous for the LM in certain cases to use pitch dark during an adventure to heighten the tension, it is a tool IMO that would be unfortunately negated by D&D style visions.

BTW- I reference "the Hobbit" basically because I have just recently re-read it hehe, and I just started Fellowship of the Ring, I want to re-read them looking at the stories with TOR in mind.

PS: I used to have this angst about D&D with everyone wanting to run a half-elven character just for the night vision lol

I beleive all the races in Middle-Earth see better with light, even orcs and trolls. I don't think there is any dark/infra/ultra vision type of thing. But quite a few races see very well in low light conditions. I suspect Bilbo can see better than the Dwarves because he is a Fallohide and has some traces of elvish ancestry. The Wood Elves don't seem to have any problems, but then Thorin & Company might have been "night-blinded" by the elves' light trick.

In TOR game terms though, I am a little concerned about the Beornings' Brothers to Bears virtue, since by always getting an attribute bonus it pretty much trumps everybody else.

Here's my take:

Dwarves have a more keen sight to detail even in dimly lit areas - at very close proximity. This lends aid in dwarves searching and inspecting baubles for clarity, purity, and value, etc. Bilbo could see the boat that the dwarves did not, because it was outside the dwarves close-vision.

Balin had a keen eye sight that trumped the other dwarves - while most dwarves acuity with sight is close-ranged, Balin was a noted exception


Elves have an acuity of vision for far-distance. There's a trait that gives an elf the chance to have an in-game benefit for it.


Create a trait for dwaves (and others) that is for closer vision acuity, and allow it to be selected. Perhaps it can help with skills in dark areas on tasks needed to be done in close proximity. Or a Virtue perhaps that allows a favored score to be used when in underground darkness.


As for Gollum, he lived for 500 years inside caves etc, I think his eyes just adapted.

The Sillmarilion says of Dwarfs -" Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the dwarves strong to endure. Therefor they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not forever"
So long lived, tough, loyal but stubborn, grudging, long lived and skilled in making things to the point were the objects they create seem magical. But no mention of seeing in the dark.

In Moria Gandalf leads the way with his staff's "faint radience". "behind him came Gimli, his eyes glinting in the dim light as he turned his head from side to side." It seems clear that Dwarves of the mountains are little troublesd by dim lighting but there is no implication that they can see without any light. Indeed of all the companions Frodo has the sharpest senses but he attributes this to his brush with the warith world through the ring and the Morgul blade on Weathertop. Gimli is accompanying Gandalf at the front of the Fellowship for his knowledge of Dwarven workings not because he can see better.

Whilst it seems clear that the dwarves are usually immune to the fear and claustophobia of being deep underground (se Gimli's commennts about the paths of the dead) they don't have any magical vision.

As Treadwell has stated regarding Frodo, I'd attribute this to Gollum's long ownership of The Ring and his corruption by it. Frodo too gained an ability to see in the dark better than others in the company after his encounter at Weathertop.

IMHO, Treadwell summarizes it well & the rules handle this just fine as written - very accurately for Middle-earth. Hero characters in the books don't display special vision in darkness (Orcs see like 'gimlets in the dark') but not Dwarves, Elves, Men, Hobbits, et al.

The game has multiple instances of giving player-heroes an edge (per se):

"...to have good sight and hearing (Awareness, Explore)” (p. 87)

"Keen-eyed
The keenness of your eyesight surpasses that of most folk." (p. 102)

"Brothers to Bears
…from now on your sight and hearing are greatly enhanced at night, and let you see or hear better than under the light of the sun, and at a greater distance: when you make a roll using a Perception skill at night you always add your Attribute score to the result, as if enjoying an Attribute bonus." (p. 126)

"Natural Watchfulness
You have learnt to recognise which sounds and sights reveal the approaching of enemies, and to read much from your surroundings." (p. 133)

Of course, it's your game, & the game police aren't going to visit (I laughed when I read this Gumbull) & you can tweak one of the above for your player's Dwarf if he really wants the whole D&D infravision thing

Dwarves and lights:

And in the hunt for Merry and Pippin, where the vision of both Aragorn and Legolas are mentioned as exceptional in one way or another, Gimli's vision is never mentioned. Indeed, Gimli notes that "if we walk by night, we cannot follow their trail" and "in the dark we should have passed the signs that led [Aragorn] to the brooch." Shortly after he counsels they rest "then the blind night is the time to do so."

Orcs and lights:

So orcs appear to use torches commonly (except when chased by Rohirrim!) and do not have any "magical" dark vision.

The one exception might be the "maggots" from the Misty Mountains. According to Ugluk, "There's only one thing those maggots can do: they can see like gimlets in the dark."

Interesting topic. Out of curiosity I HAD to (finally after all these years) do a google of "gimlet" my only knowledge of it being a spike-like tool with a handle, and here is one definition;

Definition of GIMLET
: having a piercing or penetrating quality

I like this Trait or Virtue idea

It's funny but in this whole thread I don't think anybody has mentioned the most important factor in spotting things, Awareness skill. Rather than a Yes/No answer to seeing in poor lighting conditions, I think is probably should be handled more as a PC might see something if they can beat the target number.

There seems to be plenty of precedent for attributing to Elves the ability to see as well under starlight as if it were day. I don't see why that shouldn't be extended automatically to Hero Elves of all types.

In fact, the Cultural Blessing, Folk of the Dusk, seems to cover this for Wood-elf Heroes.

Quick everyone, stop talking about 'seeing in the dark' I just heard a rumour that the game police are on their way!

Good! Let's turn out the lights and find out if they see us!

'seeing in the dark' 'seeing in the dark' 'seeing in the dark' 'seeing in the dark'

No problem, I have more dice than them.

The ability of elves to see in the dark is a long-unquestioned one, but dates back to early MERP (not so very far from AD&D) when no one thought very hard about <ahem> 'demi-humans' having the ability to see in the dark.
The rationale put forward is that the Elves were born when there was only starlight -- no Sun or Moon, before even the Great Lamps. And obviously they must've been able to see, right? I'd even dispute this.
The Silmarillion has it that the Valar “feared for the Quendi... amid the deceits of the starlit dusk.”

The Valar went to great pains to create the Great Lamps for them because the bad things of Melkor were using the darkness to the Elves' disadvantage... And Haldir said he and his kin could have shot the Fellowship based on the noise they made, not because they could see them. Haldir himself had to get out a little magic lamp in order to have a (proper) look at Frodo...

And I should also note that Folk of the Dusk only enables elves to see and otherwise operate better than other people when they spend Hope. Their Awareness 2 is Favoured, but that requires Hope too. So these advantages only kick in when they put their minds to it, and the rest of the time they don't see any better than anyone else. (Everyone but Bardings and Dwarves get an Awareness of 2 too, albeit not Favoured.)

Some elves have Keen-eyed, which is not available to anyone else (except hobbits) but that probably still leaves plenty of elves without Keen-eyed and not spending Hope being no better off than anyone else.

'But it is still dark,' said Gimli. 'Even Legolas on a hill-top could not see them till the Sun is up.' – THE RIDERS OF ROHAN

“Would that this night would end, and I could have better light for shooting,” said Legolas. – HELM’S DEEP

I'm not being 'anti' with all this, just getting some arguments off my chest... and they might put the cat among the gorcrows a bit. ;-)

Cheers,
--Os.

No. You raise a perfectly valid point that honestly questions the justifications for Elves' low-light vision.