Like the title and description says: how often is the Gathering of Five Armies and Council of the North? Are these held every year, or every five years? I seem to remember reading something about every five years somewhere.

-E.

The first Gathering was held five years after the battle itself, which is where I assume you got the five years from. Personally I have taken it to mean that every Gathering is then five years after the one previously... I don't know why I worded that so unusually, but there you go

Beleg

The first one is five years after the Battle of Five Armies, and it's held every year after that.

Edit: ninja'd

This was asked previously and I think the discussion basically came down to:

• 1st Celebration: Five years after the Bo5A.
• Next Celebration:
  • Suggested: Every year
  • Suggested: Every other year
  • Suggested: Every five years

And that was pretty much as far as it got as I recall.

I argued Man is too short-lived for something like an every 5 years celebration. Assuming the average warriors age was 30, these cultures only have another 30 years before the participants are deceased. Which would mean just 6 celebrations. What happened in Great-Grandads time is ancient history and no longer important within human cultures. Thus, every year as a remembrance of the dead would be necessary. Basically equivalent to Memorial Day.

Someone else (cannot recall whom) argued that at this level of technology, heading 200+ miles for a picnic is unreasonable. There is planting to be done and the terrain and encroaching evil (particularly as time advances toward LOTR) makes it less likely that the Celebration is produced.

I am not aware of an "official" decision on this. But take a look back at the prior thread. I might have missed something.

The core books are clear that the first celebration is in 2946, five years after the Battle of Five Armies. Beyond that, I'd suggest that it be an irregular festival, held whenever it'll be convenient in your game. There's no reason it needs to be on a strict schedule (annual, bi-annual, etc.).

Both answers are actually correct in a sense - the first 'Official' Gathering of the Five Armies only occurs in 2946, five years afterwards BUT this festival came about from the localised celebrations that were held in Dale, Lake town etc on the anniversary of Smaug's death every year - thus my adventure 'The Dragon's Ring' below is set during the Lake town festival that occurred three years after the dragon's death - by this time the festival had already grown and become 'semi-official'.

Historically, this is how real festivals occurred - initially a spontaneous celebration by the masses, that gradually grew and becomes more 'official' every year. So I see no problem with smaller celebrations occurring at a local level prior to 2946 - the difference being that in this year all the major players (Dale, Lake-town) etc. agree to having the festival in Dale.

Robin S.

Robin, reading the input so far, I think people are more interested in how regular the festival is after 2946 rather than how it grew from a collection of localised festivities into something official - although that is interesting.

Personally, I'm going with every other year after the initial one, with localised festivals in each intervening year. For me, that takes into account the difficulties in travelling every year (ie, therefore taking a year's rest between each gathering) but also is a short enough time between each event rather than a larger gap of 5 years.

I never really thought it through, but that is good logic for how/why the Go5A has become such a big occasion. The other suggestion, of some kind of cyclic celebration on the local and/or regional level is another interesting idea. Used in conjunction they're much more powerful then used alone.

Between your two suggestions you're saying locally they have Death of Smaug celebration, but regionally they have a Go5A celebration. Both these events taking place on a schedule that the LM deems appropriate for their personal campaign.

Why not imagine the Go5A as the culmination of the yearly market in Dale? Dale has a commercial incentive in promoting the Go5A annually since it will bring business. Naturally, folks from other parts of Wilderland are not obligated to attend, but when travelers return to their respective homes with tales of the toys, tools, and other wonders of Dale/Lonely Mountain industry, merchants will flock to Dale.

In the Middle Ages, many cities grew largely (or wholly) due to their yearly markets. Perhaps Dale's yearly market is at the end of the season, with the final celebration being the Go5A. You could take this line of reasoning another step by imagining that the festival celebrating the death of Smaug in Laketown is somehow related to the closing of the yearly market in Laketown.

Obviously, commerce still occurs outside the annual markets. However, in an age with limited advertising and relatively limited urban populations, it made sense for merchants to focus their efforts on small windows of time. By mutual agreement, they all brought certain types of goods to specific places at the same time, ensuring that sellers could find buyers and vice versa.

Those are good ideas Mordagnir, the issue people will still have travelling to it every year is that it's during November (so mid to late autumn) making it difficult to travel to, as mentioned in previous posts. Logically, merchants selling items not tied to specific times of the year would set up shop in less taxing times of the year to allow ease of access, maximise potential sales, etc. Though I suppose it would be easy enough for the majority of races in Wilderland to get to the festivities - ie, Dale men, Lake men, Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain, and Elves of Mirkwood are all relatively close by. That just really leaves Beornings and Woodmen - who out of the cultures present in this part of the world have the lowest comparable standards of living so therefore won't have as much money/trade-items for the merchants to acquire.

Is the Go5A a canonical thing? Because I actually had it occuring at the beginning of summer :/

It's game canon, since it's mentioned in the Loremaster's Book, but definitely not canonical Tolkien. And to reiterate my earlier point, I think it should occur whenever works best for your game: if that's early summer, then run with it.

I was one of the people in the original thread doubting it could be every year, but that was assuming every Gathering was some big deal, like the first. That's not necessarily so, and most of the people who would be interested commemorating the battle are nearby (Erebor, Lake Town and the Elven Halls). So I figure an annual Gathering of modest size with a bigger affair every five years or so would work.

Gandalf won't be there every year, for example.

I only place it in November because as far as I know the Bo5A took place in November so for me its logical that something celebrating/commemorating such an event takes place on its anniversary. YMMV etc.

For the Go5A to be something impressive, I think it'll take more than just the folks described in the published TOR materials. There are several indicators that Dorwinion has a relatively advanced culture (or several advanced cultures) and considering the sheer amount of space and the unlikelihood that it would be uninhabited, I daresay Rhovanion has some interesting populations as well. On top of that, there would be the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, assuming that some remained after Dain assumed the kingship in Erebor, and it's not outside the realm of possibility that a few Elves might show up from Lorien, at least before Dol Guldur is reoccupied.

I do agree November (certainly the proper time for the celebration) would be poor time to travel -- especially if we assume the weather is analogous to Central Europe -- but the waterways should still be navigable and assuming that the Dorwinion-Mirkwood Elves trade is as substantial as the Hobbit suggests, I do not think it unreasonable to imagine an improved road parallel to the River Running.

Note that this would then require some communities along the way to provide shelter, porters, security, and road maintenance, but that discussion is not germane to this topic!

Something that might be interesting to factor into the discussion, Tolkien says in The UT that long journeys were not undertaken in the North [Wilderland] from the beginning of November unto the end of February.

For the celebration to be more than a local attraction, travel would begin so that the Journey ended by the end of October I would think. But, more importantly, trans-regional trade would normally stop, or so I would think between November and February. That makes the ritualized attendance of the celebration by peoples outside the local region more than a development on trade relations. At least, I would think of it this way.

Any thoughts...?

Regards,
E

Tales from Wilderland places it in the last days of November.

Anyone with the Lake-town source book want to chime in and tell us what that venerable text has to say regarding the celebration? If I remember correctly from one of Jon's YouTube interviews of Francesco, one or the other discusses the celebration and its inclusion in the Lake-town book.

In "The Marsh Bell" it's said to be taking place at the "beginning of Summer" in 2964 which would imply around Late June/Early July for at least the first Gathering

Yeah, and on page 95 of the LM is says its held in the last days of November. On page 6, 108, 109, and 119 of TfW it states November as well.

It would be nice for Francesco to clarify the situation, just from an official standpoint or even just for the sake of curiosity.

From TALES FROM WILDERLAND (p. 109):
"Word has spread throughout the North about the magnificence of the festivities held in Dale at the end of the month of November."

From the TOR LOREMASTER'S BOOK (p. 106):
".. the coming Gathering of Five Armies, an important meeting to be held at the beginning of Summer."

So, the game materials are not in complete accord. From a practical perspective (reinforced by Eluadin's erudite observation from UT), perhaps the Go5A is celebrated in the Summer while smaller local festivals are held in the various communities on the appropriate festivals (ie the Killing of Smaug is celebrated in Erebor, Laketown, and probably Dale, but not elsewhere; "Battle Day," "Orcblood Day," "Thorin's Day," "Memorial Day," whatever is celebrated amongst the Mirkwood Elves, Beornings, Men of the Lake, Dale, and Dwarves of Erebor and the Iron Hills).

Basically, go with what works. Perhaps this answer is not as definitive as many would prefer, however!

Francesco has, in a previous post about the same subject, clarified that the summer reference from the Marsh Bell is erroneous and that the autumn placement is correct.

I will 'bump' the other thread for your perusal gents.

Cheers Hal, much appreciated!

Although November is getting late for holding festivals, keep in mind that historically most festivals in Europe coincided with the harvest, which was usually around Halloween (end OCt -early Nov)

Robin S.

Well... I wished I'd known that before I ran the Marsh Bell...