I really enjoyed the marsh-herbs portion of the Lake-town supplement, so I expanded and elaborated on the gathering rules somewhat. There are now Winter Herbs, that can only be gathered in winter, and the mechanics for gathering and using them are altered somewhat, though not much.

In addition, I've also put together some horsemanship rules. There's a new called shot and volley attack, as well as some other things.

Please, take a look and tell me what you think. The goal was to stay as true to the feel as TOR as possible.

Herbs: https://www.box.com/s/qo9uy39qzujwax2tp72t

Horses: https://www.box.com/s/kh10w4y1t0ycitxfgqia

I don't have the Laketown supplement, so this herb stuff is new to me, as are specific prices. However, I like the idea, though I can't help feeling they may be a bit overpowered?

In regards to the horsemanship ideas, I like a lot of it, especially the charge and such. However, I can't help feeling that if people are so often unaccustomed to riding, as you say, surely they definitely wouldn't be able to fight on horseback? Also, I'm pretty sure a Great Spear is a two handed weapon only, and as such could not be used on horseback. Equally, making travel checks more difficult seems counterproductive to me, as the point of a horse is to make travelling easier, as laid out in the RAW. The same goes for the specific prices, but again, I don't have the Laketown supplement.

In all, I quite like them and I'll probably end up using some of it if and when my players end up fighting on horseback, mainly those playing men of dol amroth and rohirrim, but I feel that some of the rules seem either superfluous or overpowered. Those're my initial thoughts on the matter anyways

Beleg

I took a quick look at the horsemanship rules, and I like what I saw. Only two things kind stuck out:

1) The rider should have some advantage in combat as he has a height advantage over most foes.

2) I think you have made it too easy to kill the horse with the eye being an instant kill.

Otherwise good stuff.

And I think the prices for the horses as listed are about spot on.

Thanks! I really appreciate the feedback.

Beleg, I think you may be right about the herbs being overpowered. In the Lake-town supplement, you can only use one an Adventuring phase. Maybe making the encumbrance more would help balance it out.

About the horses, when I looked at my player's characters, none of them really had the skill set to use them. You need a very specific layout of good athletics, travel, and long-sword or spear, in addition to the ability to buy one. Pretty much the only culture that can do it well is the Bardings. This, I think, is very true to the Anglo Saxon period and to LOTR. The Bardings are a rich culture with a strong nobility, and would therefore probably have an aristocratic class accustomed to riding. Add to that the fact that war horses can only be purchased in the rich capital of Dale, and riding into battle is a fairly rare occurance. I was also thinking of adding a Barding Horsemanship trait that you need to be able to ride a horse into battle as well, so idk. Maybe that would do the trick, albeit a little more artificially

Thank you for pointing out the great spear. I was thinking of lances, which are very long "spears". However, looking at some pictures of Frankish warfare and the Rohirim in the Two Towers, they were striking with their spears in an overhand position, not couching them like a lance. My mistake, it will be just regular old spears next time.

As for the travel checks, riding a horse for a long period of time can be incredibly tiring compared to walking. The offset, however, is that you get there twice as fast.

Beran, a hero on a horse uses his favored body rating over an enemy. Do you think that's good enough? And, perhaps you're right about the eye. War horses are hard to find. I've changed the eye to unhorsing the hero. If you get it, you're thrown off your horse. Thank you!

Sorry if this is an incredibly long response. Thanks for the advice and opinions!
Jacob

"... a hero on a horse uses his favored body rating over an enemy."

Ah, that must be in the rules book somewhere, right? As I am not the one running our game I only have read up on what I need, and since we don't have horses...

" I've changed the eye to unhorsing the hero. If you get it, you're thrown off your horse."

That works perfectly in my mind.

Thanks for clarifying. Now I understand your thought process it makes a lot more sense. Out of curiosity, in regards to resolving the opening volley with the charge, would you deem archers to fire first, or a horsemand to charge first? Since I *think* there's something about archers going before spearmen. Not massively important I know, but I'd like to know none-the-less for when I undoubtedly end up using it

Beleg, are you asking whether the horse goes last? In the document, it says that the charge is the last resolved "volley". So, he would go after everyone, archers or spears. Although I didn't notice the spear vs archers thing before, so thanks!

Ok, here's the revised versions. Thanks for the help!

Herb Rules
https://www.box.com/s/qo9uy39qzujwax2tp72t

Horse Rules
https://www.box.com/s/kh10w4y1t0ycitxfgqia

Yeah, that's what I meant. Didn't notice it the first time I read it, thanks
I'm not sure if the archer/spear thing is mentioned in the RAW, I may be getting it muddled up with the way spears don't go as far as arrows, and play it as such anyway

Interesting things on the 'horse' document

Personally, I would be OK with allowing a mounted hero to wield a great spear one-handed, even if it is considered a two-handed weapon for a land-bound character. At any case, it would be consistent with many historical cavalry spears that correspond to the description of the great spear in the Adventurer's Book.

You could say that great spears need to be used 'couched' under the elbow (and therefore only usable on a 'charge') while (regular) spears can be used over-handed (usable at any stance, but once only).

Agreed.

Glorfindel, you've stumbled upon the crux of my problem. There's a wide spread debate right now on the introduction of shock cavalry and heavy lances to the medieval battlefield. However, from what I can find, lances were not in widespread use until the 1000's, and then mostly in France. This seems a bit far away from Tolkien's area of study. The question then becomes how long they are. I lent my book to a friend, so I can't look up the length there, but I was assuming it was about the size of some longer hoplite spears, 11'. That's pretty long to maneuver on a horse without couching.

Any thoughts/corrections?

I would say that if you want to go for more of a historically accurate direction, great spears would be fine. However, if you're focusing more on what is provided by Tolkien, I would suggest only spears, as the Rohirrim only use spears, and the Knights of Dol Amroth aren't mentioned as using long spears/lances either. I think

Oh, by the way, Beleg, I just realized I should thank you for your Rohirrim thingamajig!

" but I was assuming it was about the size of some longer hoplite spears, 11'."

Too long. At the time, Norman/Saxon period, horseman used spears almost identical to those used by the infantry, only slightly lighter versions. So, you would be looking at around 6-8 foot in length.

Yah, I just texted a military historian friend of mine. He said 2-4 meters (6-13 feet), with 4 meters getting into lance range. So, yah, I suppose Great Spears are usable, and probably preferable on horseback.

I think this time I'll wait to change the pdf until the discussion dies down

6-10 foot would be more realistic range.

You're welcome

6 to 8 feet long is about the description of the great spear in Adventurer's book.

Again according to the AB's description, a (regular) spear is light and 'wieldy' enough to be "hurled like a javelin or deftly thrust with one hand", while the great spear has " a shaft longer than any other spear". But somewhere between the 15th century's jousting lance and 4th century BC's Macedonian pike, I can imagine a spear that is too long and too heavy to use in one hand but that can be use from horseback, which could qualify as a great spear.

I'm aware that couched cavalry spears before 11th-12th century is a debated subject (most evidence show overhand spear handling), but it's such a medieval-fantasy staple that I'd personally be willing to let it slide. They certainly did in the movies whereas the Rohirim held 10' tall spears (used couched IIRC). Not much of a reference perhaps, but a good indication on how most players are going to perceive mounted combat.

... this leads me to another question: are there references to stirrups in LotR?

If so, the assumption that couched lance techniques are used on the battlefields of Middle-Earth would be more believable.

As the Rohirim were based on the Saxons, and they had the stirrup ,AFAIK, I would say that the stirrup was known to most cultures in ME.

Well, I was able to find a couple of guys at Pellenor couching lances. All of the men at Helm's Deep were using an overhand position, as well as the skirmish outside Fanghorn. This kinda supports the middle of the road view of the evolution of the lance: Some guys had 'em, some didn't. The total revolution didn't happen until 11th century (as mentioned), but there's no reason to assume some guys took to it early. Although, Beran, Anglo Saxons rarely used cavalry and I can only find mention of stirrupless horses.

In all, if the characters of your particular role-playing group want to couch there lances, that's great! But I don't think I'll make a separate couched lance rule. It seems to me that the 3x charge bonus is good enough to cover that whole spectrum of tactics without making the rules more and more complex.

Here's an article on shock combat I found very interesting, btw. http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/shock.php

Oh, and I forgot to say thanks for the comment and discussion!

I would have to double check the scene, but in the RotK I am pretty sure Eomer's saddle had stirrups, I can only assume that Jackson must have found evidence of it in Tolkien's work. The Saxons would have had stirrups near the end of their kingdom period, around the 10th century...but, were not in abundance. I would have to watch the movies again (oh, darn! ) to check for myself spear positions during the various charges.

I think it has more to do with the actors being unable to look comfortable without stirrups, or that the horses used in the movie were not trained to obey stirrups-less commands.

Now that I think of it, my wife (who works with horses and has done high-level dressage) mentioned that they where using all kind of modern (19th century onward) bits, saddles and harnesses throughout the movie, with some attempts at camouflaging the most obvious anachronistic elements. I'd have to ask her agiant making sure that I'm not confusing it with another movie.

I've seen these movies only once (except for Fellowship, which I've seen a few times); I'd have to watch these part again. Now if I could find my VHS player...

"I think it has more to do with the actors being unable to look comfortable without stirrups, or that the horses used in the movie were not trained to obey stirrups-less commands."

Not the case with Blanco and the other horse (I can't remember his name) who portrayed Shadowfax. The Horse wrangler who rode for Gandalf just has a piece of wire to guide the horse with no saddle. But, then that is only two examples out of how many horses on set. So, you could be right.

As to the tack and harness what era in our history would be right for ME? And how many survivng examples would be available to use as design templates. I would think that going on the type of riding Tolkien was used to the stirrup would be fairly widely used in ME, as the society is more Medieval and less Ancient era.

"Now if I could find my VHS player... "

The movies are out on DVD and BluRay you know?

Let's just hope that, if there's a ride-by mounting of a horse, they get it the right way around this time.

The Two Towers - Fail [EDIT: YouTube Video]
Shrek 2 - Correct! [EDIT: YouTube Video - look at 3:10 to 3:15]

Anglo Saxon Horsemanship

http://www.freewebs.com/merseybooks/Anglo-...n%20Cavalry.pdf

On the stirrups question, the Mongolians used stirrups from very early on and they came in to Europe during the 7th and 8th centuries. I wouldn't be surprised if the Saxons had basic stirrups. I believe though I read somewhere that they rode to battle, but dismounted to fight. Mounted combat was one of the Norman advantages over the Saxons.