Have I understood the rules right in that the only ways to raise hope is through fellowship points or focus and that there is nothing in the fellowship phase that can adjust hope?

Was just wondering if I missed something because it just feels weird that a character can theoretically only have 1point hope left and be miserable before wintering in Rivendell and when the character leaves the next spring it's still miserable with only 1 point of hope.
(Let's for the sake of the argument ignore the shadow part of the rules.)

IIRC, there is an undertaking you can do during the Fellowship phase to permanently add a point of Hope to your maximum and to "refresh" your Hope to its total.

It isn't an undertaking,it's part of Heroic development. If you spend experience points on Wisdom in the Fellowship phase you can take the Mastery of Confidence. This raises your maximum hope by two and resets your hope score to it's maximum.

Okay so you can refresh your hope by spending time in Rivendell.
But you can refresh as an side effect by boosting your stat by buying it with exp.

That's just backwards...

It's an abstraction mate.

You go to Rivendell and spend experience on boosting your Wisdom by talking to Wise people (such as Elrond) and at the end of it, not only is your hope renewed but it is also increased. As the stupid advert says...'simples'.

Ah, yep. Thanks for the catch!

yeah and I'm glad that there is a mechanic to handle replenishing hope.

Still I think I would have preferred it to be an undertaking tbh.
Not only does it feel like it fits more thematically but more importantly it would have introduced a very nice and interesting dilemma in the game by forcing the players to choose if they want to cure themselves from the influence of the shadow or if they wanted to regain their spirits and replenish their hope.

Hard choices makes for good storytelling and under certain circumstances that choice would have been both hard and nasty.

I wondered as well, why there would not be an undertaking to allow the regaining of Hope in the Fellowship phase.
The only thing I can come up with is that Hope is the most valuable commodity in the game. It can be used to adjust almost any roll the character makes. Unless limited in some way it could easily be devalued.
If Hope could be recovered as an undertaking, it is reasonable to assume that players would spend their available Hope with less thought or consideration knowing that they could simply choose to replenish it in every Fellowship phase. Because it costs experience points and a wisdom slot they would probably use them more sparingly. Each purchase costs progressively more experience points and they have to weigh up whether to replenish it again or avail of a Culural Virtue or a different Mastery. I have read somewhere on this board(but cannot find it in the books) that there is a six point limit on both Wisdom and Valour. If that is the case then that certainly adds an element of difficult choices to the proceedings.

RE: Regaining Hope as an Undertaking. The adventurer's book gives a list of "typical endeavours that a character may choose". The list does not need to be definite nor absolute. Regaining 2 points of hope as an Undertaking would neither be broken nor against the spirit of the rules IMO.

RE: Fellowship Focus. This shouldn't be underestimated. 1 point per game session (assuming the focus character hasn't been wounded) is not negligible.

RE: Fellowship Pool. This pool replenishes every game session. One could stretch the rule and apply that to a fellowship phase as well.

RE: Special Places and Special Events. Certain places - like Rivendell - could have virtues of their own without stretching the rules so much, where merely spending some time there could give the character 2 hope points, or if dedicating its undertaking, regain them all.

Similarly, some special events, as adjudicated by the DM, could replenish a character's hope. Events like assisting to to the festival of the 5-years commemoration of Smaug's death in Esgaroth, going back home to assist to your sister's wedding, witnessing the birth of your good friend's child etc. could give hope in an ad hoc way.

The rules give us strong guidelines, but its up to us, players and loremasters, to tune it to our style of play.

Glorfindel

At first it seemed strange that Hope was so important yet difficult to replenish. I think this was due to all the years of Force points, character points, and bennies. But after a few adventures, I have come to appreciate how special Hope is. It should be guarded well lest a character fall into his Shadow weakness and possibly end his adventuring career prematurely.

Quoting Glorfindel:
RE: Special Places and Special Events. Certain places - like Rivendell - could have virtues of their own without stretching the rules so much, where merely spending some time there could give the character 2 hope points, or if dedicating its undertaking, regain them all.

Similarly, some special events, as adjudicated by the DM, could replenish a character's hope. Events like assisting to to the festival of the 5-years commemoration of Smaug's death in Esgaroth, going back home to assist to your sister's wedding, witnessing the birth of your good friend's child etc. could give hope in an ad hoc way.

give me some help,
as a LM I can say simply:
"You all see this and that, your soul is then lightier than before, and so regain a point of hope"
or there's something else like a context that can trigger some type of task that if succesful allow the regaining of a hope point.
(as an example I'm thinking Aragorn viewing the Argonath for the first time in his life and the Fellowship discovering his majesty)

Thanks!

Spend a session roleplaying your fellowship phase and you have a pool of Fellowship Points to dish out.

And I see no problem with allowing the same undertaking that reduces Shadow to instead gain Hope.

Also, I give my players hope when they do something to drive back the shadow, defeat difficult odds or act selflessly for good (such as going out of their way to free slaves or help travellers). I want them to be proactive, so I reward that kind of behaviour.

vs

Glorfindel, IMO I reckon that reviving hope as an undertaking might come very close to breaking the game. If each player can choose to(try to) replenish up to 2 hope in each fellowship phase it potentially grants a player 4 Hope points per adventuring phase to use without due care and consideration. I just know that players will see and take advantage of this early on and that they will spend advancement points on the common skills required to guarantee a successful outcome.
IMO, it was not an oversight by the writer to omit a mechanic for this option and I am inclined towards RAW in this case.

On the other hand, carefully considered awards of hope (based on events and occasions in the game) are perfectly acceptable and indicative of good roleplaying. I would certainly agree with those.

I think that you might be on the right track with Rivendell as well. I wouldn't be surprised if it had some sort of special rules as a sanctuary. Time will tell.......

Voidstate, I am interested in the last paragraph of your previous post. It is basic psychology 101 to reward the behaviours you want to see in your players, but (in TOR) do you find that this type of approach sometimes crosses over with situations where an experience point award might also be appropriate (or be more appropriate)?

How would you choose which was most appropriate in this event, or would you award both?

The problem with ad hoc XP awards is the better roleplayers end up with better characters. The better characters can then more easily take risks and sop earn more XP and you end up with a power imbalance within the group... which is not fun.

Much better IMO to award something that gets spent like Hope (or bennies, fate points, etc.) so that in the long term everyone remains in sync.

vs

Good answer Voidstate. Flawless reasoning there. I concur.

I must admit I've been doing this wrong from the beginning: I've been replenishing their Hope Point Pool each Fellowship Phase; and was contemplating a bit that their existence made the challenges too easy. Now I understand why.


Anecdote #1

During the Marsh Bell game the heroes were emerging from the black pool. One of the hobbits was having trouble swimming and was being dragged down by a Marsh Dweller.

One of the other characters - the Beorning dove in and saved her. The rest of the players sat around with worried faces as this was unfolding.

I narrated as the beorning crested the surface with the face of the hobbit breaking the water for all to see, they all replenished a point of hope from the act.


That falls into the area of applying a benefit to train proper player behavior (heroism).


That was the first time that had happened across three games, so the players learned how sometimes Hope can be restored through valiant heroic acts that bond their fellowship together. I look forward to this being a recurring theme.


Anecdote #2

I asked each of the players to come up with two NPCs (non-player characters) to write about who were important to their own character - friend, foe, family, mentor, etc. These are to be used in future spin-off quest ideas as a protagonist in a situation that arises. I also asked for them to come up with two things in their life that is very important to them: a goal or aspiration such as Strider having always longed to see the Argonath, or Gimli wishing to see Moria or Samwise wishing to see the elves. Perhaps a character has always been told the tales of Thorin Oakenshield and would love to pay homage at his tomb, or perhaps a grandfather spoke fondly of the great eagles and the character would wish to someday see them. I asked this so that I can introduce these elements in later sessions - which would be fuel for rekindling Hope as well.

Thanks Sirkicley,

Great anecdotes that are quite useful.

I also like the idea of Hope points being granted as alternate (or additional) rewards from advancement points or experience points.

I like the NPC and inspiration/goal at character creation. Consider this stolen for the next time I have to create characters Sirkicley!

Not playing/running game but have thought about Hope renewing opportunties and that they should come up in game to reward appropriate conduct and embody the spirit of the world.

For example, along the Old Road through Mirkwood, first built in days of friendship of dwarf and elf, stands midway one of those many old monuments one sees in this dark age world. An arch engraved with images of dwarf and elf cooperating and working together.

Any dwarf or elf PC whose player retconnned how their ancestor was among those who undertook this labour could regain a Point of Hope.

A dwarf or elf who has an appropriate attitude to other race (e.g., a fellowship focus in one, like a Gimli-Legolas pairing) would gain back a Point of Hope (on top of the one above).

Essentially any of the naturally inspiring or personal-history signficant sights that come up in LoTR (more so than Hobbit I find) can be taken as model for something that would give back a point or two of Hope. A reason to "step out of the straight path" to "see the works of your ancestors".