What are some scenes in the books that you think a Hope point may have been spent.


I will start with:

Hobbit: When Bilbo jumps over Gollum to escape.

LOTR: When Aragorn wrests control of the Palantir away from Sauron.

Haven't finished the books, but I will keep reading.

I'm pretty sure Sam burnt through a load when he tussled with Shelob.

Frodo probably used most of his up on travel and corruption tests.


Theoden when he gave his speech (you have to imagine the TN for charging into the hosts of Mordor would be quite high).

Frodo, on failing his stealth roll on the Plains of Gorgoroth, manages to find a convenient hollow to hide in before Sauron spots him.

Eowyn defending her liege

Gandalf to face down the balrog

Glorfindel to chase down the nazgul....though maybe he was so nailz he didnt need it!

Boromir to come out of his delerium to die with valour

Galadriel to resist the ring

Lots examples of self sacrifice to save ones allies / the weak OR to do the right-thing

Frodo to Persuade Pippin and Sam to cut cross-country on their way to Crickhollow, thus bypassing the Golden Perch at Stock.

I think we should be looking not at "big roll" situations, but instead situations that leave the character drained and less hopeful.

Frankly, I think that Balrog had to burn some Hate to face down Olorin.

Sam vs. Shelob and the subsequent sneaking into/storming of Cirith Ungol are both pretty good examples of someone abusing the crap out of the Fellowship Focus hope replenishment mechanic.

Admit it - if something this awesome happened in a game you were running, i.e a player becoming a total bad ass to save a friend/focus, then you would have a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

...will have to go back to the books. In the meantime from memeory...

- Frodo resisting to put the ring at the call of the Nazgul in the Shire
- Frodo lifting his sword in defiance of the Witch-King and resisting his call, after crossing the ford.
- Sam crossing the Watchers gate of Cirith Ungol to rescue Frodo (I'd say he gained that one back since he saved his fellowship focus...)
- Legolas Shooting the flying steed of the Nazgul over the Anduin (to fuel Seeking Arrow?)
- Gimly crossing the path of the dead (regaining hope points daily in following Aragorn, his fellowship focus???)
- As mentioned above, Eowyn facing the Witch King, laughing and thus breaking the spell of dread.
- Perhaps in the same scene, Merry stabbing the Witch King in the knee.

Methinks Frodo chewed up & burnt out his Hope in resisting the Morgul-knife wound (sustained at Weathertop) for as long as he did - and only just long enough. What a cliff-hanger!
I figure that he was Weary and Miserable, as well as subject to ongoing Corruption tests (depleting Hope and Fellowship).
Perhaps the arrival of Glorfindel bestowed an invaluable Hope point just in time???

I'm still coming to terms with Hope & Fellowship and how they're recovered (when not via Fellowship-focus).
I'd truly appreciate if some clever-clogs could detail this (Frodo's plight) with TOR mechanics.
It would help me better understand the whole Hope/Fellowship vs Corruption/Shadow concept.

Anyone up for the challenge? (It's probably quite straightforward and I'm embarrassingly just getting myself all confused).

Well you have got to imagine that after getting stabbed Frodo hogged all the fellowship pts (which with himself, Merry, Sam, Pippin and Aragorn would be an impressive 9 pts to draw upon) to replace the Hope pts used to stave off the corruption caused by the knife wound.

This got me wondering who was whose fellowship focus in 'The Fellowship'

Sam is easy. (Frodo)

Merry & Pippin were possibly each other (though you could argue it was Frodo)

Aragorn (Frodo again)

Boromir (???)

Legolas (Aragorn)

Gimli (Aragorn)

Gandalf (Frodo)

Hmmm, I wonder....

Frodo (Sam initially, replaced by Gollum briefly post-Ithilien & pre-Shelob when paranoia/Ring-corruption changes his allegiance, then Sam again)
Sam (Frodo)
Aragorn (Frodo)

Boromir (nil fellowship focus)

Merry & Pippin (Pippin, then Eowen, then Pippin again)
Pippin (Merry, then Faramir? Gandalf?, then Merry again)

Legolas (maybe Aragorn or nil initially - but I say Gimli by Helms Deep)
Gimli (maybe Aragorn or nil initially - but I say Legolas by Helms Deep)

Gandalf (Frodo, arguably Pippin for a while, then Aragorn)

It's reasonable to expect that from time to time a hero's Fellowship Focus may shift, based on plot developments. How would you handle that in terms of game mechanics?
I figure it'd be dealt with on a narrative basis, and so best simply as another Fellowship Phase option.

Actually perhaps it's:

Boromir (his father Denethor II)
Everything he did was to honour his father. He was truly his father's son.

Actually my group made their characters last weekend (finally get to play this weekend) and one of my players asked if it was possible to change your fellowship focus. I told him only if they die (not really having a clear answer to give him).

As I was typing my thoughts about 'The Fellowship' I was thinking about that very question and I agree with you CheeseWyrm I think another option during the fellowship phase is the best way to go.

As to Denethor being Boromir's fellowship focus I'd say no, because he was never a player character.

FWIW, I allow the players to select a Fellowship Focus in each game. This is primarily due to the fact that we don't have all 6 players ever session. This allows for a player with an absent Fellowship Focus player to actually have one at the game.

Since our "adventures" last 2 to 3 gaming sessions each, it's not uncommon for one or two players to miss each game - different persons missing at each game.


But I do emphasize that selecting a F-F or a new one for that matter - it should be something that isn't taken lightly, and should be a good in-game reason for the unspoken bond.

Usually a player announces (when his F-F is absent) that he was somehow inspired by the way that so and so protected him last game; or saved him, or healed him, or they way they bonded on a particular skill-test, etc.

QFT.

An example of regaining hope rather than spending it, and from the films (The Return of the King) rather than the book - the scene with Frodo and Sam in Ithilien when the light changes and the fallen Numenorean king statue, defaced by the orcs seems to get his crown back. Wonderful moment and so true to the spirit of the book.

Erm... that was in the book.

Harder to think of clear uses of Hope from The Hobbit.

Bilbo might have had to rely on Hope pts when riddling with Gollum. My thinking being he was likely temporarily weary from his escape from the Goblins (I'm a mean Lore Master ).

Bard's amazing shot that downed Smaug might have been a clear use of Hope. (Although was Bard a PC?)

Bilbo against the spiders might involve a use of a bit of Hope.

Also when he sneaks into Smaug's den, he might have had to rely on Hope (Or maybe Bilbo just had a really good Riddle skill.)


As a side note to my ramblings - I would argue that the good majority of the thirteen Dwarves were NPCs.

I think the PC's were:

Bilbo
Thorin
Balin
Bofur
Dori
Maybe Gloin

In chronological order within the timeline of the legendarium:

I'd put Gloin ahead of Bofur and Dori. Not least because Dwarves seem to have a major deference-to-age-and-experience thing going on -- viz. Fili and Kili getting all the gopherish jobs.

Dori is (the strongest? and) a very amenable fellow, but just getting favourable mentions doesn't make him a PC...

I don't even know why Bofur should be mentioned in despatches. Can you elaborate?

The Hobbit is liberally scattered with references to "the spirits" of Thorin & Company, which seem to be the 'currency' of TH -- in place of Hit Points or any such.
"Their spirits fell" references might imply "they expended Hope", but really I think those moments are better represented by something on the Endurance/Fatigue axis rather than the Hope/Shadow one.
[*]

Gandalf's admission of "weariness" after resisting the Balrog at the door out of the Chamber of Mazarbul might sound like a direct reference to having incurred a loss of Endurance... but ironically might instead reflect his having blown a point or two of Hope there.

I agree with the already cited episode of Aragorn's confrontation of Sauron by palantir, where his suddenly grey complexion betrays the fact that the trial cost him something.

Cheers,
--Os.

Well reasoned there Osric.

With due respect folks - I'm a little leery of interpreting the canonical tales too closely with TOR mechanics.
Of course Tolkien applied poetic license to his creations, whereas in RPG adventures the focus is necessarily on Player-Heroes - highlighting the differences btwn RPG adventures vs literary fiction.
We'll get odd outcomes that do not suit an RPG party when we attempt to translate the Tolkien's narrative into TOR mechanics.
Case in point -
The Hobbit: IMO Bilbo is the only Player-Hero (the rest are all NPCs). Yes, that means his story doesn't make a great RPG group adventure (but a fantastic single player one if you like).
Further to this - I don't see that Bilbo had any FF during his adventure.

Now LOTR is more confusing: arguably Frodo is the only Player-Hero; or the Hobbits are the Player-Heroes; or The Fellowship are all Player-Heroes (IMO with exceptions of Gandalf & Boromir).

I think it's reasonable that a Player-Hero may have a NPC Fellowship Focus if the narrative suggests such. It'd work ok if that NPC is with the party, BUT if the NPC is back home/elsewhere then the Player-Hero will have scant opportunity to benefit them.
That said - in Boromir's case he certainly had no FF amongst The Nine Walkers. His focus was clearly on actions that would benefit Gondor and his father's agenda.
In TOR context one could argue that any sacrifice he made for Gondor/Denethor may have been a source of Hope for him.
To stretch the thought experiment, Boromir's heroic last stand would definitely have yielded Hope (& a better outcome perhaps) had he a FF in the party.

Whoops I meant Bombur not Bofur. Bombur is one of the most memorable Dwarves in Thorin's Company.

@Cheesewyrm - I agree you can't really RPG-up a literary story, but I think this thread does have a use in identifying parts of the books that might inspire players and LoreMasters in the use of Hope & Fellowship focus mechanics.

Aye, fair comment