Could someone explain to me how initiative works in combat? I'm a little fuzzy on this part of the rules. Thank you.

Basically, the characters go in order of stance. Forward stance first, then Open, then Defensive, then Rearward. Within the stance, characters go in order of Wits score. The player characters go first, then NPCs in most cases - unless the player characters are ambushed.

Thanks, Valarian, but how do you determine which side goes first, player-heroes or enemies? Their turns are in order of stance (that's order of action) but which side has the initiative? Or am I thinking too much like an old D&D player?

And where does the Opening Volley come into play? I found this part of the rules to be vague, or not as clearly written in an organized understandable fashion.

Declaration of stances; then all players go, then all enemies.

If there's an opening volley, it takes place before the first combat round.

loremaster page 41

if the party are defending, which they should really be doing most of the time as they are the good guys, they go first

only when they are on the attack, do the bad guys go first. So if the party decide to be aggressive and attack somewhere they perhaps they shouldnt

in the LOTR the 'party' rarely go on the attack

Thank you, all. My brain just was not working today. Here, on page 46 of the Loremaster's Book:

During each combat round, all combatants belonging to the side holding initiative take their turn, followed by the other side.

That, plus, the rule from page 41 regarding the defenders always holding initiative spells it out. Like I said, my brain wasn't working today.

Hello!
I need a little clarification of Initiative please.

So to run through this real quick, lets say the Company is Defending, so they have the initiative.
The Heros have chosen their Stances.

If as Beckett states, the side with Initiative goes first then the other side goes.

My question Is all battle assumed to occur simultaneously?

In other words, If the companions slay an enemy, I would think that enemy will get his attack during his Order of Attack, and then fall before the next round. That's how it works in most other "simultaneous action" style games.
Thats the only way I could see a balance of some sort to this method.


Im a little fuzzy on how this works.
I will continue to study the rules, but will definitely appreciate a clarification from you guys

Defending side goes first, unless the attacker ambushes them – in which case, attacker goes first.

Yes. That's what it says on P.46 of the LMB.
I understand that part.
Thanks

We play it that damage is done immediately, i.e. if the company has initiative and kills its opponents, then the latter don't get a chance to attack.

Damage should be dealt immediately. The only time the rules state that combat is simultaneous is during opening volleys when initiative is irrelevant.

This makes ambushing the enemy extremely advantageous. If the company can sneak up, the enemy will not be able to make opening volleys using ranged weapons and the heroes will hold the initiative too when close combat commences. This will give the player-heroes at least one ranged attack and a close combat attack before the enemies get their first attack. Nice!

Yeah thats what I was reading into the rules as well. I am still unfamiliar with combat and it's intricacies. We will have our first real combat encounter next game session.

I see that whoever gets Initiative would have a huge advantage. I like that in a way, though I would (at first glance) think it could be abused. But having a limit on the number of attackers on a given creature might balance things out a bit.

My players will have a tendency to want to gang-rush a single opponant, usually the captain or the biggest critter first, D&D style.
But maybe it all works out in the end.

Thanks for the replies.

It could be abused, but then, if the enemy gets advantage, things can rapidly go downhill. A while ago, while playing with two of my friends, they walked into an ambush and didn't spot it. Before the two heroes had a chance to draw breath, one of them had lost about half her endurance, while the other was fairly bruised. And that was just from an opening volley and a first round.

Gaining initiative is without a doubt one of the most useful aspects of combat in TOR. I love it

I was thinking that very same thing Beleg, whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I will often adopt player's tactics and play-style so they should not complain when the tables get turned on them right?

That said, I tend to be the kind of GM in previous game systems that relish and cheer a good hard won victory by the players.

I won't beat them up just for the sake of my own ego, and for me there HAS to be logical circumstance that leads to combat and a logical consequence of it's outcome.

But, a game is not fun if it is not a challenge, and I liked MERP where EVERY battle had to be considered and weighed if it was just worth the fight since the system was so brutal, then again I knew the system well.
That's sometimes a hard line to walk, especially with a new game system.

The players I am involved with seem to me to be gung-ho, in a D&D sort of way, and I'm concerned about the Marsh Bell adventure when they will face the hoard of Marsh Dwellers in that amazing treasure chamber.

But if they don't back down, I have noticed there is plenty of room in the prison cell where the dwarves are being kept...

I would really like to play under an LM that knows the system well so I could learn quickly.
Anyway, Thanks for the replies.

It's funny you say that. Two weeks ago, my friend Brian took over the reigns as LM and ran the Marsh Bell - all players except me were new to the game and new to that adventure. I just did a good job of keeping my mouth shut and pretending that I didn't know anything.

When we encountered the room of treasure and marsh dwellers, my son refused to leave - he is totally a gung-ho loves combat kind of guy. (course, he's only 8 though, so what would you expect???).

The rest of us realized it was not a winnable fight, and we attempted to flee down the corridor back the way we came. We all went in the hall and held our ground while we waited for my son's Barding to retreat as well. But he stayed his ground and kudos to him, he killed about 8 of them himself!

My Hobbit Warden (Dornwise Cottonleaf) stood his ground in the hall and continued to use Defensive Stance to defend the dwarf slayer (orcs) (Played by the LMs oldest son) standing next to me in the hall who was built for offense, not defense. Together we killed those coming down the hall as our two archers fired over our shoulders (two hobbits played by my daughter - 12, and the LMs younger son - also 12). The marsh dwellers never hit me (the 9 Favored Wits, coupled with SmallFolk Virtue allowing fav wits as Parry, and the shield i carry gives me a +11 to Parry. When fighting defensive stance - that's a whopping 23 TN to hit!! I'm usually only hit with a EYE result).

This continued for a few rounds as we tried to convince the Barding to retreat behind our wall but he would not relent. We learned by studying the layout of the dwelling, that we could bring down some of the ceiling structure to close off the rest of the marsh dwellers from getting to us (even if just for a while), and it was said to my son (Morgan) that they would bring down the ceiling if he didn't join us. I urged them to hold the line until he either joins us or falls - allowing him a heroic end. My son down to his last 4 endurance looked over his shoulder to us and said - save yourselves this will be my last fight. I said - "If this is to be your end, then it will be such an end worth retelling. I shall stay to witness" (My hobbit has Story Telling)

That round he fell unconscious and with heavy hearts we brought down the ceiling in the room over him sealing him to his fate.

We explained to my Morgan that he needs to learn when a fight is not-winnable and sometimes it's best to flee.

He said "Nope - that was more fun than fleeing; This character might be dead - but I can just make another - and at least I had fun!"

I have to say he had a point, and it was a memorable encounter because of it, and he did make it fun. He immediately made a second Dwarven Slayer for the group. He just wants to kill stuff, too! :-)

Either way, that was fairly good insight for an 8 year old I must say.

My hobbit has regaled many people already with tales of the barding's heroic last stand to fend off the onslaught of marsh dwellers to allow us to escape with our lives. Between that and the Story-Telling distinctive feature, it has done great things for succeeding in roleoplaying encounters since.

Wow! Thanks for sharing that SirKicley!

Reading your roleplay exchange with your son made me have chills... that is excellent role-play for a kid that age!

What a great tale and a most befitting end for a Middle Earth adventurer!

Thank you Venger. Very kind of you to say.

Yes that was a pretty special encounter to say the least. From a very early age, I encouraged my kids to "pretend" and play "make-believe" using their imagination. For years they sat with me while I ran my D&D/Pathfinder campaigns from behind my screen and just listened to us all - so it really primed them for understanding how to roleplay.

My emphasis on them developing their imagination has done wonders. He's a very eager player and loves to get into character.

The other day we went to the grocery store and I sent him down an aisle to get something as I went on to the next one - but realized it was the wrong aisle so I went one more over found the item and when I returned to our meeting spot he wasn't there. I looked for a couple minutes then here he comes walking up - he said "Well you weren't at the meeting spot so I made a hunting check to find you - looks like I got a Staff!" I laughed heartily at that one.

My daughter is creative and can come up with amazing stories for her characters. She loves just dreaming up characters (names and personality, and traits and flaws/issues they may have. Especially coming up with....er....interesting super heroes! Our favorite to date was "Fashion Chick" that she came up with a few years ago for my Mutants and Masterminds game. Hysterical character!!!)



Good luck on the Marsh Bell - it's worth addressing ahead of time the differences in styles of D&D and TOR; especially the lack of magical healing in TOR. Getting hurt has a much longer road to recovery in TOR than the ease of a couple of potions of Cure Light Wounds.