I meant to type Treasures or magic items. . .

It's embarrassing I know, but I'm just not getting it for some reason.


1. Is the treasure rating of a hoard supposed to mean non-magical items that the PC's are planning on selling?( like GOld coins, statues, gems or whatever)
So the rating is an abstraction and when they increase their standing in the Fellowship phase it reflects what the PC's are investing their wealth in?

2. What if I want on the PC's to find a blade like Orcrist or Sting? Do I have to wait for them to spend an experience point on a cultural reward to give it to them? Does the treasure rating on page 116 in the Adventurers Book have anything to do with me wanting to put a blade like Orcrist in a Troll's lair?

It just feels like the players get to decide what magic items they find, am I reading this right?


thanks

As I read it, the Treasure rating is indeed abstract, mainly a measure of total wealth used to increase Standard of Living in the short term and maintain Standing. Also don't forget that each point of carried Treasure increases Fatigue by 1, so caching is a must.

When it comes to magical items, I read it that those items that a Hero invests Rewards in are permanent and part of the character. Can you give them other items? Certainly, but those would be story items unless paid for in Rewards. I would let them use such items for the current story, but then in the Fellowship phase they are gifted to others or considered to be a part of their offstage wealth.

I am considering allowing my players to swap out their Reward choices during the Fellowship phase though...

Caul is bang on IMO

So if they find Orcrist, who ever wants to keep it "in play" has to pay for it in Rewards or give it up? The only way to get Rewards is through experience points right?

Experience, or if you play with my minor rules tweak, by swapping, yes.

There are a number of ways to approach this and which is best will depend on what you as GM want to achieve.

Did you want to add a specific Gondolin blade called Orcrist? If so, add it as an item and give it powers. As a story item, don't feel the need to define its full effects and feel free to have it disappear or change as dramatic.

Did you just want to give treasure? If so, give the treasure points. When you get to the Fellowship Phase (Rivendell), if a player says that they want to increase Valour and gain a Reward, allow them to narrate where they got the item. The player may well come up with the name and the background, even after you gave the generic description of treasure including a few swords. As a Reward, the item becomes a part of the PC and should not be used by the GM for dramatic reasons without good purpose and disccusing it with the player first.

In the past I regularly sent some questions to my players from time to time. I  asked questions like "what is your darkest secret?", "what is your biggest desire?", "tell me about your family"... This way, we built up great backgrounds for the characters step by step, gave the characters great depth and developed them. I find this extremely useful as a LM.

With TOR one of my questions will be like "where do you see your character in some years? Will he be a wise Hero or will he be a battle hardened Hero afraid of nothing or will he be a little bit of both?"

If I know that a player will buy Valour sooner or later, I will simply let him find a very special item. At this point, after asking the right questions, I will already know which player dreams of what item. I will then simply let them find an extremely old elven armour or a lightweight, balanced sword, crafted with unmatched skill. I will not tell them what this weapon is capable of or tell them that it is a magic weapon, they will simply find a very cool sword. And then, if the player buys a point of Valour, simply to develop his character, he might find out that the sword has some magic properties.

And the players will find out new properties of their items as the game progresses. Let's say one of my players has a sword from the beginning. I will ask my players "tell me about your weapons and armour. Where did you get those?" If a player owns a sword which is an old family weapon, which his father gave to him, why not find out after some sessions that this is not just a simple old sword? Maybe one day Orcs attack the fellowship and all of a sudden the old family sword starts glowing...

Treasure is just wealth, plain and simple.

My intention with regard to magic weapons and armour is wait for a hero to pick a reward and then either...

Add it to the next treasure horde they find...

Or... take it from the body of a fallen enemy...

Or... have it presented by some NPC as reward for a job well done.

I like this system personally, because so many games revolve around which weapon do i use today, which armour to wear, which ring should I put on?

I don't know, I've always been weary of lists and what not of what "I want" from players. That was the single rule that ruined 4th edition D&D for me as a player/GM.

As a player I don't want to know anything about what type of magic items might be available or in the next treasure hoard. It ruins the sense of mystery and verisimilitude for me.

I mean if I get to choose my magic items, there will never be that moment of serendipity by my players.

I do like the idea of spending experience point for cultural rewards and you are gifted with an item of great value, It's a really cool mechanic and makes your backgrounds mean so much more in the game.

but,

For magic items found in the field, I think I'm going to regulate that ( in my games) as strictly under the LM's domain.

When Bilbo and his Dwarves "defeat" the trolls they have no idea what's in that cave and my players won't either.

What ruined D&D4 for me was when then turned it into an MMO.

That seems like a bit of knee-jerk reaction. If you look at it there are significant distinctions between the approaches of TOR and 4e.

1. TOR is not balanced around magic items. In comparison in 4e, the wish list system is required to maintain game balance and the RPG breaks down if not adhered to. This makes magic items a chore in 4e.

2. In TOR the GM still has loads of flexibility to add whatever items they want for story purposes. There aren't even any set rules for magic items. The GM can make magic items as wondrous as they want, possibly more so than most RPGs due to the lack of rules on the matter. In comparison in 4e, everything is defined and balanced, even artifacts, and adding in items outside the norm causes issues.

3. In TOR players have only a limited ability to tailor their own arms and armour. In Tolkien's work, characters are often inextricably bound to such items. In essence, this is no different than allowing PCs to buy skills, feat, backgrounds and what not. In comparison in 4e, the players are expected to let the GM know what everything they want in terms of items and the GM is then left to try and make sense of it.

The better way to look at TOR is that it operates like any other RPG in terms of magic. In fact, it possibly has even more GM flexibility. However, it provides players with a limited way to tailor their equipment, which reflects the connection between character and arms found in Tolkien's work. This also helps add falvour to a game where there is little economy and small lists of items.

How much you wish to embrace these ideas is over you as a GM. Read them down or read them up. What you have suggested as a solution is fine and works with the rules as written. Just be aware that you as a GM will need to spend a bit more time weaving in the players Rewards with that method, rather than just capturing their own ideas which can often be more organic.

Please, I come here to get away from Edition wars.

Hear hear...

Yeah no edition wars hear, it jsut reminded me a little of 4th, I think this RPG will play amazingly.

But, to me, half the fun in playing RPG's is discovering and exploring. I like the ideas of gaining equipment during fellowship phases as it reflects your PC's ability to interact with their culture. Brilliant! Also, the characters are not questing or exploring so I have no problems with the PC's "organically" offering reasons and details on items they aquire, I would of course help and guide them if need be too.

During the Adventuring phase, where they explore and discover it just feels "wrong" to know what you are going to discover. ( or for the discovery to come from your own thoughts) That's what the LM is there for isn't it?

Anyways, people play how they like and I'm happy that my preffered way is supported by the rules in the game.

thanks for the discussion.

Now I need to find time to play...

That's a broad philosophical question. Are you sure you want people to try and answer it?

FWIW the example I gave had the PCs using Rewards after finding the treasure to describe what specific items caught their PC's fancy. So, they don't know what they were going to discover and could easily be riffing off and expanding on a comment from the GM that the troll's treasure contained some old swords.

This is actually similar to Tolkien's work. Most wonderful items are explored over time with potentially a combination of input from the storyteller and the character. For example, Sting is discovered in the Trollshaws, found to be from Gondolin at Rivendell, revealed to glow in the dark at the presence of Orcs in the Misty Mountains and discovered to be particularly lethal in Mirkwood after killing spiders. Though you could read all of these abilities existing from the start (which to be honest is the usual way and really kills the sense of magic IMO), it also serves an example of an item introduced by the GM and then developed by the player (and GM) over the course of the adventure. This is something that Rewards allow for very well.

Again, all this is very different from the predeterministic nature of 4e which you have issue with and which I agree with you is not ideal.

The one element of treasure I don't particularly like is the idea that you have an item (or really, item power) bound to you. It smacks of some superhero games, where if I pay points for a gadget, that gadget is always available. Swapping out item powers from Sword A to Sword B as I get more Valour points doesn't seem very...Valorous. It also yanks me so far out of the point of view of my character I may as well be Saul Zaentz himself.

Abstract money, wealth and standing levels, all that I can be down with, I've become pretty good at making them actually immersive. The whole "XP for Items" metagame is one I'm going to have to think a lot about.

Right now I'm in the "slowly discover powers over time" camp, as Skywalker describes.

I have to say I disagree, that is not to say you are wrong as there is no wrong or right only points of view. But the one thing that drives me to distraction is where you have acharacter whose sword was given to him by his grandfather who was given it by his grandfather, but two levels later it gets swapped for a sword that is shinier because the new one does more damage.

I was never happy, even as a player, when I dumped an old item because it wasn't making the grade. That said I have no problem with powers or effects being discovered over time, that would work quite nicely in the right circumstances. You couldn't have that too often though as it would stretch believability.

E

I see what you're saying but for me, if my PC finds a sword in the Trollshaws and then I decide ( when we get to RIvendell) that it was forged in Gondolin and etc., it wouldn't feel like I earned it. I mean I invented my own treasure for my PC, it's too convenient and it kills the immersion factor for me.

As a GM I know all these qualities about Sting but it's up to the PC to find them out if ever. So if he never faces Orcs or loses it before hand ( or somehow trades it away or whatever) then he never knows about that special quality ( glowing). If he doesn't bring it before someone who has knowledge of Gondolin blades, then he doesn't know about that either, until he researches it.

When he uses it I would probably roll secretly ( if I needed to) and state something like, you are amazed at how easily it . . .blah blah blah.

So, I'm definitely not going to have an identify spell or anything like it. I still think it's fun to discover something, as a PC, and try and figure out what it is. Is it cursed? Dangerous? Is it powerful? Flawed in some aspect?

I guess for me, magic items are part of the story and so in the domain of the LM, like the example on page 151 ( about succeeding on a task) where it states, " players must remember not to invent details that are in the Loremaster's hands." well what are those details, later it states, " . . . these details are part of the Loremaster's planned story."

I know it's a new style where everyone tells the story so to speak, but I would still like to preserve some old-school traditions, like mystery and discovery.

I can't wait to try the game with a proper group.

Run it as you feel best . TOR has the advantage of being flexible in that regard. You will need to tweak Rewards as written as they explicitly allow players to have some say over their equipment, even if its just telling them that they can't used any established items for the basis of such Rewards.

Your comments about the identity spell and magic items being part of the story confuse me though. I would make the exact same comments about the approach you are taking.

I am a proponent of having nearly all magic items in TOR undefined and in the authority of the GM (Rewards being the single exception). I don't even create a set list of effects for such magic items in advance, instead waiting to see where the game goes and introducing as the drama suggests much like a writer would do with a story. As such, identity spell or even guessing through extrapolation are not even possible in that approach as magic is part of the story and the domain of the LM to use to add mystery and discovery.

Those items closely tied to the PC are able to be contributed and developed by the player themselves albeit in a limited way. Again, this is a story focus in allowing players some input into their PCs own story by influencing the immediate corona of abilities and items surrounding the PC.

It seems to me that you are not prioritising story with magic items but instead that of a consistent world. This form of approach is, as you say, old school, and its totally cool and valid and all that. CRKruger has recently called this "roleplaying" as opposed to "story gaming" (which I think may be innocently misleading) in that it restricts the players to solely focus on the role of their PCs and have no other concerns or responsibilities in terms of the greater world. This approach also tends to reject RPGs as being stories as dramatic coincidence and the like that are used in storytelling on some level break that setting consistency as you yourself seem to admit.

Anyway, this seems like a rather large tangent. Plus its all relatively irrelevant as TOR is one of the few RPGs that accomodates both It seems like the posts have helped explain how magic items are might work in TOR and helped inform you in making your own choice. Job done. End thread