I'm guessing that C7's official adventures are going to center on Mirkwood. So to avoid contradicting elements that will be defined by those adventures, I'm planning to send player-heroes east to the Iron Hills and then, probably, south into Dorwinion before returning to the eastern edges of Mirkwood and back up to Dale.

I've found a few resources about the Iron Hills and Dorwinion, some of it from MERP and some of it fan-made. From that, I've drawn the following basic framework, and I'd like y'all to correct anything that you believe is erroneous.

1. Iron and copper are mined in the Iron Hills, making those mines an important source of metal for the reconstruction of Dale and new works in Erebor. (The stone needed for construction is quarried locally, in the neighborhood of Erebor.)

2. There's a road between Erebor and the Iron Hills that runs through both hilly country and grassy plains. The lands south of the road are settled (thinly) by Dale-folk; the lands north of the road are wild country.

3. There are three or four active Dwarven mining sites in the Iron Hills. Outside those enclaves, the Iron Hills are a wild region where orcs might be encountered.

4. The Redwater (or Red River, or Carnen) isn't frequently traveled, as most river-trade with Dorwinion goes along the River Running. But the confluence of the River Running and the Redwater is a logical place for some kind of small trading settlement. Thus, heroes need go no farther southeast than that point to meet some of the people who supply wine and other goods from Dorwinion.

5. There's no canonical information on who dwells in Dorwinion and produces its wines. Avari Elves have been suggested. But I plan to have the inhabitants (as represented by people at the trading station) simply be Men.

6. Easterlings are beginning to increase in strength and numbers within Rhun. In 73 more years, they will march against Dale in the War of the Ring. But even now, some Easterlings are beginning to push westward, seeking to expand their territory.

Does anything here look amiss? advTHANKSance

Hi, Issachar.

The areas you refer to are my preferred s as well. There really is a paucity of canon information to go with, so to say that any of your thoughts are erroneous would not appropriate. I have thought quite a bit about the region and these thoughts are strewn across several threads on this forum.

On point 1) I agree with this completely.

On point 2) I agree completely, in the default setting of 2946. Prior to 2941 this area is probably deserted IMO.

On point 3) Agreed in the default setting, except that there s probably a partially populated Or abandoned Dwarf city/town as well. When Smaug destroys Erebor and Dale, the Iron Hills probably contains the highest concentration of Dwarfs in the Wilderland.

On point 4) also agreed in the default setting. However, I believe that the Redwater has seen fluctuating importance as regards River Travel and trade. When the Dwarves are kicked out of Erebor, the River Running becomes a quite circuitous route for trade between the Iron Hills and Dorwinion. I have placed some Trading Posts on the Redwater. These were originally sponsored by Dwarfish 'Factors' but are currently home to folk from Dale, forced into exile by the Dragon. I envisage similar settlements along the River Running and in the Upper Vales of the Anduin.

On point 5) I concur and am inclined to have Dorwinion as a 'mannish' realm. There is a thread a few pages back called 'an Easterling Warband'. In this thread is my case for a realm of Easterlings ruled by the descendants of those Northmen who fought against Vidugavia.

On point 6) absolutely agree.

I have been doing some work on a Horsefolk heroic culture for TOR. They are a much diminished remnant of the Norhman Horse Culture that once dominated he plains to the south. I wonder if you would mind looking at it and giving me your opinion, if I was to e-mail it to you? It is supposed to be a companion piece for a set of mounted combat rules. Neither are quite completed yet, but the Heroic Culture s only missing a few 'fluffy blurbs'.

Thank you so much for your insight, Halbarad!

You're right: the Iron Hills hosted a heavy concentration of Dwarves too recently for them to be very desolate in 2946, or for the Redwater to have fallen into disuse as a trade route. I'll revise those assumptions.

I've skimmed at least one thread about your work on a Horseman culture, but haven't gotten around to reading any of it closely. If you email it to me I'll be happy to read it, though I probably don't have enough lore to make very meaningful suggestions. You can send it to this address, reversing the order: com dot yahoo at issachar44

And I'll go have a look at the Easterling Warband thread you mentioned, too. Again, thanks.

You're done a great job as usual & this is very well developed. I only have a slight bone to pick, however, concerning point 3:

Halbarad makes a good point concerning the Dwarves, but I'm a bit reluctant to agree to Orcs therein, unless they are few in number & well-hidden. The Dwarves in the Emyn Engrin probably would be numerous & well-organized enough, even at bare minimums, to drive Orcs from the hills toward, let's say, the Ered Mithrin, Withered Heath, or even to the Mountains of Mirkwood, though the last might be a stretch getting past Halbarad's Horse-lords. Hmm, come to think of it, we have a story for an adventure ...

I had some similar misgivings about how many orcs could realistically be in the Iron Hills. Without getting too spoilerish, what I have in mind is an encounter with an independent company of orcs who decided they'd had enough of "big bosses" and struck out on their own, looking for easy plunder. (That conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag obviously intrigues and tantalizes me with possibilities.)

I'm not sure if that completely gets me around the problem of an orcish presence in the Iron Hills being unfeasible. Maybe it's just one of those ideas that won't work no matter how I try to tune it. I'll give it some more thought, for sure.

I envisaged a group that had escaped the 'Five Armies and were forced to flee east. The near immediate migration of most of the Dwarfs to Erebor left them with several ready mad lairs. They raided the remaining Dwarfs with impunity until a company of veterans was despatched from the Lonely Mountain to drive them out. Under their leader, a Great Orc, they have now made their home in the Ironwood. Their leader is known locally as 'The Hobgoblin' and has been the death of a dozen assorted champions of the Free People who have sought to slay him.

Issachar, Halbarad,

I often model the behavior (ack) of the Orcs that I run after the fracas with Gorbag & Shagrat. Those two just capture the essence of the nasties. Ditto for Grishnákh & Uglúk. Great stuff. Well, if you like putting the fear of Orcs into your heroes, as it were .

Halbarad,

Didn't you mention at one point that you're also considering adding a pack of wargs/wolves or vampires or bats or such to The Hobgoblin's band? I seem to recall you saying that he needed a spy or a messenger or two .

Hi Mim, i finally went with the idea of a few Wargs. I figured that the bats would probably have made it safely back to the Mountains of Mirkwood by 2946.

Hey all - resurrecting this thread! I have decided that the next portion of my campaign will see the heroes traveling down or along the River Running towards the confluence where the Red River meets it.

The reason for my post here is I'm looking for community support to help me with not just some ideas - but some actual flavor with which to use with it in regards of the story/game.

Here is what I have so far: I run my campaign as a very open ended sandboxy game (fans of Kingmaker Adventure Path of Pathfinder will see what I mean). I have allowed thus far for the players to essentially write themselves in wherever they want to go and for many different reasons. Each journey provide them a few new tidbits of info or hooks that grab their attention to make them want to go elsewhere and do something else. This has provided as of right now, no less than 8 different possible adventures for them. The fellowship maintains their current residence in Esgaroth. 3 such hooks exist in/around the area where Beornings and Woodman territories converge along the Anduin. This then means that they must journey across Mirkwood; an adventure that has them very concerned. They wish to use the Elf Path. It was determined that in order to do so, they would need to learn much of the secrets of the path etc, and The Elvenking Thranduil is reluctant to offer free passage to just anyone - especially friends of those dwarves who escaped Galion's vigilance five years ago....

Due to this - I have determined that a task or two to prove worth and benevolence towards the elves will afford them permission to the secreted path.

Background:
Galion's mentioned demotion (in the Marsh Bell) has left the duty as captain in charge of the wines to be the responsbility of another - Elthion. This person is a close hearted person to Galion. (cousin, nephew......something). The truth: Galion was not disciplined or cast out per se; Galion's demotion was self-inflicted - due to pride and feeling a sense of shame - his way of outcasting himself until he can win over the hearts of those close to Thranduil again. However Elthion (relative of Galion), is not as proficient in his role as the elder elf had been. Galion would feel guilty of course if something happened to Elthion since it was his own pride that forced his younger loved one to fill in for him.

Plot Hook:
Shipment of Dorwinion wines being escorted by Elthion are late along with the new wine-captain and is vexing to Thranduil. Due to elves being involved so heavily with the reconstruction of Esgaroth, he is reluctant to put a task-force together to seek out the shipment due to available elf-hours for the job; nor to alert Galion that there is something possibly amiss (at this point). [The party did meet Galion during The Marsh Bell]


Development:
The shipment has fallen upon ill-fortune.

Goblins?
Bandits? (Easterlings?)


For LOTRO fan, I am picturing Dorwinion as the northern half of Eregion in that game - gentle rolling hills, beautiful picturesque skylines and horizons, grassy plains, and some areas of deciduous wooded tree glades. Thoughts?



These are the ideas I have so far that can built upon:

A dwarves' stopover - trading post; dwarves from Iron Hills - overseeing some of the trade here. I'm thinking of borrowing Halbarad's idea - they orcs took up the vacated ready made mines once the dwarves migrated back to Erebor until the movement to push them back out. So this dwarf was in on that and speaks about the "Great Orc" called The Hobgoblin. (so that's one hook).

A run-in with a Horselord of the region. (will be borrowing some info from Halbarad). Is there some hook/angle I can throw in there over something he wants - all for the purpose of the heroes becoming heroic in his eyes. (that's a potential hook).

A warg possibly responsible for some mischief in the area - one that will taunt the PCs as having eaten a dunedain ranger once. (possible hook - who was the Ranger?)

Old Elven Ruins. What? from when? What is there now? Are there any elves nearby that nostalgically are fond of it. (possible hook - what can be learned here)?

Bandits. Easterlings perhaps. Straight up fight encounter - possibly they're responsible for the wine issues. But why would they disrupt the wine?

Goblins - having fled after the Battle of Five Armies scattered them. Straight up fight - and possibly they're responsible for the wine issues. The why is that they're goblins! LOL


What I am asking for from the community here is any help to facilitate creating a great setting to host my tale for my players. I have until next week Friday to have it prepared (the 16th).


I noticed the original post stated that there was info from MERP and fan made about Dorwinion. Where and What can i read for both/either.

Some interesting encounters??? Both hostile and non.

Some non TOR products setting that one suggests to substitute for Dorwinion - like the territory of Andoran in Pathfinder's World of Golarion (the Darkwood Vale in Andoran seems to get me thinking about it may be a good source for inspiration) or some other published region (Pathfinder or other - but since I have all Pathfinder products so far, that would be easy for me to draw correlations); any such source that could be used as a surrogate for setting the scene to immerse the players in.


Thanks to everyone!

I'm not sure SrK, but I think that the Raft Elves only travel on the Forest River to Laketown. They then trade for Dorwinion wine imported by the Lakemen.
It would probably be very unusual for an Elf to journey all the way to Dorwinion IMO. Of course, Elthion might be a particularly adventurous Elf.
I imagine in that scenario that he is travelling on a boat load of Northman traders, possibly accompanied by one or two companions at most.

The Dwarf stopover might work better on the Redwater rather than the River Running. I envisage that most of the settlements in the Running Valley are inhabited by Lakemen and Dalefolk exiles who have not yet returned to Dale for whatever reason.
I would say that Dwarves might be found at a trading settlement at the confluence of the two rivers though. That might be a good place to drop in the Hobgoblin hook.(Glad you like it BTW).

Thinking about the Warg and the Dunedain Ranger, the first question is. What is a Ranger doing in Northern Rhovanion? He's obviously been on some sort of mission, but what? Also, the Warg is probably going to be a Hound of Sauron to have possessed the ability to outwit and kill a Ranger. That's a serious opponent we are talking about.
Could be excellent. Have you seen the movie 'The Grey'? I will never look at wolf encounters in the same light again.

Okay so this is the info that I needed for direction. That being said - there is no one at my table that would balk with this sort of doubt simply a) that's not their style, and they are not walking encyclopedias of M-e. So I could get away with it if I wanted to.

That being said - I do wish to have some sort of relevancy; so how bout Elthion is being said as an agent by The Elvenking because shipments were not being man managed well enough. When Galion was in charge it ran like clockwork; but since removing himself from that position, there has been much disorganization, mismanagement of bartered goods, and the elves are feeling they're getting the raw end of the deal.

Enter Elthion to try an resolve the trade issues. However he's a couple weeks late in his expected return. Hence Thranduil's hesitancy to allocate another agent or task-force to now find the missing elf, and is a perfect task for the adventuring heroes.

This is perfect info to have. This will do nicely in setting the stage.

Okay again this is very helpful info. Thanks. So I'll have at least one - maybe two Men settlements along the River Running that they can make personal acquaintances with. One of which I think will include the Rider of Rhovanion.

Therein lies the nature and beauty of my campaign style. Should the PCs ask this - it creates a whole new hook to look into. Essentially I don't have to have an answer for this right now. I don't have to take the time to write about it. Just a name for the warg to drop is enough. IF that creates a stir or buzz among players and they wish to pursue your line of questions then that creates another opportunity for me to provide another NPC to drop details in a later Fellowship Phase to set the stage for another Adventuring Phase.

Hmmmmm, thanks for the suggestion - but all due respect I'm not ready for the players to face such an impossible foe (yet). I need more build up story before dropping such an iconic clash as a werewolf. Plus I already have plans to include the Werewolf of Mirkwood as an overarching nemesis to the campaign - don't want to go to that well too many times.

That being said - you may be right. Instead perhaps a Wolf Leader (Warg) drops the name of a Hound of Sauron (werewolf) that works out of that region that the Warg is a lieutenant of and that Hound is the one who has feasted on the flesh of a Dunedain.

Pack Tactics I got that covered. :-)

As for the Plot Development, this is what i have so far:

1) Thranduil baits and drops the hook
2) PCs follow the path of the river
3) PCs visit town of men (Dalefolk mostly with a few easterlings that settled in the area).
(There they meet the Rider of Rhovanion; Encounter #1)
4) Visit the established town of trade at the confluence of the rivers.
(There they meet one of the crew of the raft that contained Elthion; Encounter #2. They need to confront him to learn more of Elthion. The man is wounded and significantly shaken by recent experiences. Also the heroes meet a dwarf from the Iron Hills there (as I detailed above.) Somehow I want to link these two together - perhaps the dwarf is the man's friend, or has to help persuade the man to help the heroes. Perhaps the dwarf gives some clue as to what can be done to loosen the man's tongue or make him wish to speak up (Truth - he abandoned others at a vineyard to be killed by goblins).
5) The vineyard is the source of the wine that is supposedly causing the issues of the wine shortages. Upon arriving the heroes finds that it has been sacked by goblins (the ones I mentioned above). These goblins are squatting here ruining the vineyard and enjoying the Men's "Blood of grapes." The heroes fight - and eventually find clues of Elthion being missing, led off as a prisoner, and the tracks of wolves and very large set of wolf tracks (warg) but cannot go further as they lead to a small river stream that makes the heroes lose the tracks.
6) Without any further clues they return to the settlement for rest and to search more clues about the area.
7) The same Rider of Rhovanion is now there having travelled from the previous settlement. He can fill in some of the gaps and speaks of an ancient set of elvish ruins that lay in the wooded hills of Dorwinion; far from there - due to a song he knows. The song speaks of a "Moon-Howler" that terrorizes the place now. But he is not sure exactly where the ruins are. He suggests that their employer may know more.
8) PCs return to Thranduil with the grave news. He asked them to speak to Galion to inform him of his cousin's plight. Galion insists that he go and rescue Elthion or avenge him one way or the other. Thranduil knows of the ruins or points the PCs in the direction of an elf who does. Thranduil suggests that to win his favor they are to travel with Galion - as this sense of adventure may be just what it takes to lift his spirits from self-loathing and return him to his role of prominence among the elves in Thranduils Hall and
9) Eventually either by Thranduil or a side-trek to an elf that may know of the ruins - perhaps one that nostalgically mourns the place having lived at that ancient elvish settlement long ago. (don't know the Sindarin name for it - but translated in tongues of men to: "DawnShade").
10) PCs return to the settlement at the confluence of rivers. There they meet the Rider again. Assuming the encounter with him was left positively, he will eventually show up at the final confrontation to assist the PCs fight against the Warg.
11) Along with Galion, the heroes head out to the ruins to liberate the the elf, and any men from the raft that the other guy abandoned.
12) Camping at night at the edge of the ruins, the heroes are attacked by wolves *Pack Tactics debut. They howl and the PCs realize that this is a call to arms. The warg appears - and kills one of the wolves - crushing it's throat with his jaws and uses the body to extinguish that campfire leaving the heroes in darkness to face off. The warg presses the attack and shows that it will mostly likely kill the PCs. In the darkness it taunts the PCs with the info about the Ranger and his Hound general that he is a lieutenant for.
13) Rider of Rhovanion heroically shows up to lends assistance inspiring a final drive against the wolves, bringing light/fire with him, hitting the warg with a spear that drives it off. The Warg retreats to the ruins.
14) The PCs attack it and win in the morning but not before they hear the several howls of wolves in the distance. They realize time is short, they free the prisoners to escape - leaving the exploration of said ruins for another day.
15) Upon returning heroes are well respected and can now use the elf-path. But the elf that spoke of the ruins speak about he would love to have the heroes explore the ruins more fully another time. I envision the rider urging them to flee and he stops to hold them off as the wolves pour out of the ruins - giving the heroes the chance to escape and live.

This leaves the following hooks for later:

1) The Ranger mentioned by the warg
2) The Hound of Sauron mentioned by the warg
3) The Ruins of Dawnshade
4) The Hobgoblin Great Orc mentioned by the dwarf
5) The Rider - who is he? Why did he give up his life to save them? Is he really dead?


What I could use help with is:

1) Who is the Rider? And what small favor could the heroes have done for him to draw his desire to be considered so friendly and helful.
2) What could the dwarf suggest to help the rafter loosen his tongue and speak about his failings at the vineyard
3) Who is the elf that knows about Dawnshade and where is he located
4) I would like one encounter with some bandits (maybe tied in to the dwarf and rafter)
5) Some help on how rules in TOR would apply for some of the encounters. (I'll use Marsh Bell and Word of the Wise to help with this - but i'm open to others' suggestions and opinions).


(1-4 are simply plot hook developments to give much more body to the adventure)


Finally I need help with some ideas of what to use as setting material sources. Like I said - drawing inspiration from another published source to surrogate as Dorwinion will help. Initially I'm thinking Andoran (Darkwood Vale area) would be good or Varisian countryside. *(Both from World of Golarion - Pathfinder's world by Paizo). This is the most important part to me - I can come up with story hooks and development well-enough. What I really want is to do Tolkien's world justice and by far the flavor and setting of the places are the most important to describe and leave lasting memories of; and I want to make sure I do this part right.


In the end this is shaping up like a pretty good and robust "Module". I think I may write it all up someday and share it.

Indeed, it looks like it's coming together very nicely.

Sounds like the makings of a mini campaign. Lots of related hooks to keep drawing your players on after the initial adventure. I like it.

A couple of answers to questions others have raised about he how and why. The warg/Ound of Sauron need not have a tally eaten a Ranger to be bragging about it. Perhaps he he fought an epic duel that led out of sight of his pack, on his return he claims to have beaten the Ranger. this could in fact be our heroic Rider. It would give him a more heroic stature and tie him to the overall story.

Why is Elthion going all the way upriver to Dorwinion? Perhaps he intended to go only as far as Laketown, assuming that the trouble with the wine shipments originated there. In Laketown he learns that the wine is not arriving here properly either and so proceeds to track the problem to its source.

The Dwarf could introduce the players to he wounded man from the vineyard as a possible rescue/revenge party. Perhaps the wounded man fled the vineyard and now regrets his actions there. If the dwarf knows a part of this story, perhaps he and the man were going back to the vineyard when they were set upon by bandits... The players likely look to be promising recruits for the task of dealing with the goblins. If they seem reluctant, point out that either the bandits or the goblins could be responsible for the wine problems.

As for the elf who knows DawnShade, perhaps he used to live there? He could be in Southern Mirkwood (giving a tie in to wargs)

Thank you for your response and feedback.

Thats a good idea. Initially my plan is (thinking far ahead) for the elven ruins to be haunted by a barrow wight or something; this is the dead Ranger who needs his weapon returned to him in order to pacify his afterlife haunting.

Though I could tie the two together (rider and ranger) by having the rider be a descendant of said ranger.

Perfect! I was already brainstorming on that idea. I think this is the way I expected it to go - but seeing you write it down as this cements the idea.

I think I can make this work. So the dwarf wants help to get back his buddy(s) from bandits and in exchange he'll assure the wounded rafter's compliance and cooperation in getting the story to the heroes about the Vineyard.

Thanks for that!

That's a hefty side-trek to find him. Good idea; just not sure if I'm ready for that level of derailment. But perhaps that's a good one for later if/when the PCs want to follow up on the tale of the ranger and Dawnshade to begin with. For this part of the campaign arc, someone a little closer to home that knows "a little about it" is a wiser move, and then later suggests the other elf in Southern Mirkwood (or other locale) knows a great deal about it and is in fact from there; if PCs wish to learn more of the place.

All in all thanks for the suggestions. What I really need now is just some more source material to correlate to what the Tolkien sages on here relate to Dorwinion. Because I am a stickler for describing terrain, topography, geography, local fauna etc.

This is IMO more problematic with Tolkien's mythologic designs than Dorwinion. In his design, men are unable to maintain their presence (e.g. as a spirit) in Middle-earth after the death of their hröa (body). They have no power to decide whether to depart or linger for some time more, but must go to Mandos (as a transitory place) before leaving beyond Eä. This is in contrast to the Elves, who have the power to decide whether to go to Mandos or not.
Thus the classic RPG motive of a restless mannish spirit waiting to be appeased (here the missing sword) before being able to find rest is more or less not possible in Arda. And when a mannish spirit is artificially forced by extremely powerful magic (e.g. a Ring of Power) from leaving, this is pure torment.
The Barrow-wights in the Barrow-downs are very likely not mannish "ghosts", but spirits of other origin (lesser Ainur or enslaved elvish fëar) who inhabit the preserved dead bodies of lords and kings whose spirits have long passed beyond Eä.

IMO the Inland Sea is quite good and useful if you don't use the supposed long history of Dorwinion as an "Eternal realm". If you take the situation as the current one and leave the past history ambiguous, I see no problem why it shouldn't be a good base and source of inspiration.

Best
Tolwen

Thanks Tolwen.

Then how are the Oathbreakers spirits explained? That's what initially prompted my inspiration.

There is of course no discussion of that by Tolkien, but a hypothesis at least

It goes as follows: According to Tolkien the Númenórean kings were - by the Valar - invested with the right and duty to give prayer and spiritual contact for their people to Eru (thus being effectively the only real "priest" in their society). This function brought also the responsibility and prerogative of being the only one permitted to address the One.

Now comes the hypothesis: Isildur, as the rightful (co-) king of Gondor invoked (by right) Eru as witness to the Oath (similar to the Oath of Fëanor or the one of Cirion to Eorl) and thus gave the Oath a power not possessed by any other mortal deed. In the end it was then the power of Eru in the Oath that made the Oathbreakers that "undead".

At least that is the most convincing explanation I have heard by now concerning the Oathbreakers. Of course Eru could act on his own as a deus ex machina, but IMO the connection with the Númenórean king gives it a much better credibility within the legendarium.

Best
Tolwen

Thanks for the explanations.

Now that all being said - to be fair - none of my players at my game are sages or scholars on Tolkiens work, stated or theorized. None of them know more than I do, and I know half as much as twice of you should like.

In more 'popularized' media of video games and computer MMOs, undead restless spirits have cropped up a number of times as adventure hooks. I am certain that to add such an element will enhance - not detract from the game as it will merely play on what most of the players already know to be "tolkien" which is primarily the movies containing the oathbreaker spirits without any inclination about the theoretical explanations.

That being said - it may be best to use an elf. One such example setting a precedent in LOTRO is a line of quests in Forochel that meet an elven King Arvedui's shade that asks for help freeing him from that state.

I personally appreciate you sharing that knowledge because I love to read about all of this; but sometime a strict adherence is a bit extraneous for the rpgs we play. We haven't even suggested the idea of the gods/deities as they are, either.


So to keep it in accordance to what is "possible" among men, the spirit is that of an elf - so not a Dunedain. I still wish to use the storyline that the ghost is haunting due to his sword having been looted long ago.

So then this crushes my idea for the Dunedain name thrown out by the warg. The Rider or the Rhovanion can still be his descendant. So I'm thinking perhaps the Ranger was originally here to right the wrong initially caused to unrest the spirit to his fateful end. And the Rider is fated to unhappiness until his ancestor is properly buried and to do that - the sword must be located, recovered, returned to free the spirit so that the resting place of the ranger is able to be found without spirit haunting the place.

I kind of lost track of the details in the thread, so I am not sure where you are with Elthion's motivation for traveling. Assuming you need a reason, consider two aspects directly related to his new position within Thranduil's court.

The first is learning how to be a good wine steward, or Sommelier. The nearest authority (besides Gilion) would be at a vineyard, or Dorwinion.

Secondly, Elthion might have decided to travel along the wine shipment route to know the concerns and hazards involved with the wine shipments.

In addition to the Oathbreakers, and the Barrow Wights, there are the Candlebearers of the Dead Marshes, Orcs and Elves, and Men.

Tolkien is not always consistent, and his vision of Middle Earth was constantly changing and evolving.

In the case of the Barrow Wights I think they were Men originally, but their spirits were still tied to the physical realm. Certainly Frodo was able to chop a hand off. The Dead Marshes may be a similar case, spirits still tied to bodies, or at least to the physical realm.

As for the Wraiths, and there are places Gandalf implies the process could happen to other than the Nine, life is extended until it "fades" and a non-corporeal Wraith is left. The Nazgul took shape through the clothes they wore.

Ultimately, it is your game, your story, and your world now. I think Tolkien would tell you to put telling a good story first. In writing Middle Earth part of his purpose was to create a mythology for England, to match those of the Norse, Germaanic, Celtic, and Greco-Roman cultures. Middle Earth is a Mythic, Legendary place, Tolkien's litterary conciet of his writings being translations of Westron originals gives us quite a free reign in making changes.

Tell your story the way it feels right to you and your group.

Interestingly, the nature of the Corpse-candles is neither explained or even hinted at (e.g. mannish undead, evil spirits or whatever else). It may even be a a sorcerous fake of Sauron, an evil illusion to bring doom to those not very wary when traversing this region.
Thus they are IMO not a good witness for "true" undead".

Best
Tolwen

SirKicley, per our conversation within LotRO a short while ago, I think that the northern part of Eregion (in game) and the area around the Bruinen to the southwest of Rivendell would work quite well for Dorwinion. "Wine country" seems to have the shorter, squatter sorts of trees one sees in those areas, too! For interesting terrains, keep in mind the river valley itself with the high sides on both banks of the river ... spotting opponents across the chasm, but not being able to get to them in anything like a timely manner is awfully tempting to "tease" players with! AND, gives plenty of opportunities for Explore tests to find ways around, down, up, and through.

I also like the idea of the more normal fauna of that region ... bears, deer, those ballsy little badgers, the wild boar, the wolves. I don't care for the giant winged mosquitoes or the worms, though. The wood trolls I'd probably use ... the giants, probably not.

I don't think I'd use Orcs, either. I'd go with Goblins ... maybe pattern their structure and tactics after the way Picts are portrayed in Robert E. Howard's Conan or in the Pendragon RPG. Have them migrate between summer and winter ranges, raiding, and "herd" wolves and wargs ... relying on them much as Mongols did upon horses. Mmmm ... fermented wargs milk, anyone?

I also like the idea of having some sort of water traffic on the inland sea, the Sea of Rhûn. Consider having "Sea Raiders" that go upriver, raid inland, etc. (think the movies, Pathfinder and The 13th Warrior). You could base them on that island in the southeast of the sea. I don't much about the region, but perhaps there's some interesting correlations that can be gleaned from the Caspian Sea or Black Sea. I believe the Avar caused some difficulties for the Holy Roman Empire in the area around the lower Danube River. Maybe some ideas can be taken from history of these regions?

The Danube reminded me of the movie, Bram Stoker's Dracula, with Gary Oldman ... perhaps your Ranger could have a similarly tragic story and that's the genesis for his creation? (That is ... he is a member of some highfalutin Order of the Something-or-Other [which should have some bearing on his name ... it did in Dracula ... Dracul=Dragon] and returns from a victory against the Easterlings to find his wife has committed suicide after receiving a false report of his death. Enraged at the notion of his wife being damned for committing suicide, he desecrates his chapel and renounces Eru, declaring that he will rise from the grave to avenge her ... becoming a Shade/Ghost/Revenant/What-Have-You.) You might also borrow some ideas from Barovia and Ravenloft from TSR, if you pursue this concept.

Also, in regards to the Ranger, why not have him come up from Gondor? Maybe some sort of exiled noble that establishes a settlement with his loyal followers?

If I can think of any other ideas, I'll post them later ... before Friday evening.

Hope these are of help.

This post has been edited by Throrsgold on Mar 14 2012, 12:41 PM

Real life has interfered lately so I have not been able to catch-up reading this topic just yet. While I'm reading I thought I would respond to your call for any suggestions,

I thought I would mention the following MERP titles in case you can find them on Ebay or equivalent. The specific product numbers and titles are shown (in order of preference, by pub date):

1. 2019 Mirkwood [2E. 2nd Edition, expanded, of the combined material.] (Cover: Troupe of Orcs.)
2. 4100 Mirkwood: The Wilds of Rhovanion [2E. 1st Edition of the combined material.] (Cover: Spider attacking Elf with flaming sword.)
3. 8114 River Running [Dorwinion info. Couple wine-ish material.]
4. 3100 Riders of Rohan
5. 8110 Perils on the Sea of Rhun (lake adventures, minimal terrain info)

1E / 2E: The edition of MERP (Middle-earth Role Playing) that the product was designed to be played with. Note this is the game system rules, not the product (sourcebook, adventure, etc) printing edition.

1st / 2nd Edition: This one is the product edition. Later products by ICE merged material from earlier stuff. So 4100 Mirkwood: The Wilds of Rhovanion would include some material from Northern Mirkwood, Southern Mirkwood, Halls of the Elven King, etc. Perhaps not all of the material from those books - depends on how ICE was sectioning material for re-publication.

Luckily for you I've been creating a MERP Checklist with covers and game & printing edition info, as well as looking at variants (next step!). Otherwise I would not be able to make this post. I know it's late, but I hope it is still of some help.

SirKicley,

These bits might be of help to you. Sorry I wasn't able to get back sooner. Giving you a better opportunity to work more details in.


Blacktongue, the Warg Talker:
Blacktongue is, stat wise, a fairly standard warg with the addition of Insight 1. A success allows Blacktongue to discern in a person's voice, minute hints of their emotional state regarding whatever subject they're talking about. These hints are not always accurate. Having this insight into the character's personality, Blacktongue starts to pick the target apart with comments. Endlessly seeking a means to get them to reveal more. His speech is insidious, tending to enrage listeners, who unwittingly reveal private details to the warg's sharp ears.

Blacktongue enjoys playing with his food. Given the opportunity he prefers to surround targets who do not realize what is happening. Once surrounded, Blacktongue will introduce himself, staying in the shadows, seeming to be nothing more than a voice out of the darkness. The wolf pack will reveal itself if an attack seems imminent. Perhaps a growl or a couple wolves moving into the light of a fire just enough to be able to barely see them. Blacktongue hopes to engage targets in conversation so that he can play with their emotions.

While speaking to the characters Blacktongue will inquire how the character's taste? "You are Man, of Dale, I have not tasted such flesh. Is your flesh hot, like a Ranger's? Or cold, like the [Forochel]?, etc."

[I really like this NPC, I will definitely use him again. But he might be too capable to just be a warg. He could be a Hound instead within your campaign.]


"Fisher", the Ranger:
Fisher, known for his preference for eating fish, is actually named Gammael (GAM-may-yell). Gammael is mainly a naturalist, being familiar with plants and animals. While not nearly as capable as Radagast, he's accurate and thorough. Gammael was an investigator for the Council of the Wise, looking into reports of aberrant creatures being found all over Rhovanion (foreshadowing for Necromancer activities). He was trying to find affected creatures and by triangulation see if he could locate a point of origin. However, he was found by Blacktongue and his pack. Fisher never stood a chance.

[A couple of points here. LotR makes it pretty clear all Rangers are of Dunadan (Numenorean Faithful) descent. I mention this because you cannot really mix a Ranger's parentage. While half-breeds are possible, it may be unlikely. Gondorians became xenophobic about half-breeds but I cannot recall a similar situation among the Faithful. Also, since you might alter Blacktongue, whether he eats Gammael or not is up to you. ]

Nice ideas there Garn. I like 'Fisher' very much and would use him, pretty much, as you suggest. Going to keep him alive though, at least long enough to make him an influence in my pc's lives.
Blacktongue is nice/nasty as well. The 'big bad wolf' in Middle Earth clothing.

SirKicley,
I realize that you need the information for tomorrow's game, but let me know if you would like further assistance.


Halbarad,
Thank you. I'm glad that you like Fisher and can make use of him within your campaign.

So I ran the first of what appears to be three sessions of my proposed story line that I detailed in outline form in this thread.

I just wanted to take the time to say THANK YOU to all who contributed food for thought, suggestions, ideas, and constructive criticism.


As for an update: This was the fifth TOR game session I've run - and by far was the best. I would love to be able to write this campaign scenario up for a shared scenrio/module. Any news front on a TOR zine for fan-submissions and/or how to go about doing that?


Here's how it went down:
1) Heroes had interest in going to see the Elvenking Thranduil to petition use of the elf-path road through the forest as they have personal reasons for wanting to visit the Beornings and the Woodland Hall. They travelled up river the Forest River to his home (this was done not w/ Journey rules or anything - i determined the path was well travelled enough to not warrant many chances for hazards). Upon meeting Thranduil, it was an "ENCOUNTER" in which they had to convince him that they were worthy of his consideration - not necessarily permission. Tolerance was set at three, and they had no failures. During the conversation he dropped hints that he was not accustomed to allowing passage, and that his fears are that he is spread too thinned should their presence on the path compromise the secrets at all. Spread thin because a) they had not yet fully recovered in the five years since the battle of five armies, are constantly working to remove shadow and spider threats from within the forest border and has even sent his son to guard the western edges of the woods, c) his elves are aiding in the reconstruction of Esgaroth (when the PCs made a comment that this was also a hardship faced by the dwarves, Thraduil quipped - "yes - interesting that it wasn't for the dwarves awakening the dragon Smaug in the first place, perhaps there would be far less to rebuild" which silenced them for a minute.... d) the steward in charage of wine shipments has stepped down and replaced by someone who has yet to learn to work effectively. Since the heroes had previously met the previous such steward in the Marsh Bell. this final point was further pressed by the Heroes (hook, line, sinker....) and so it was relayed that the shipments have been late, and the steward Ethilion has not yet returned - from his trip to Esgaroth to see what is the reason; and this wine is what Thranduil wishes to deliver and donate to the upcoming festivities at Harvestfest and anniversary of Battle of 5 armies. (Ethilion - Galion's younger cousin, wanted to prove his worth and shine in the footstep took it upon himself to find passage down the Celduin after learning the problem was not in Esgaroth), and that Thranduil could not thin his ranks further on a search and rescue mission. The Heroes readily volunteered for such an honor! (hook....line....)

2)Back to Esgaroth - where the heroes learned of Ethilion getting passage on a barge w/ a famous ship/crew/captain - borrowing much ideas from the River Running MERP supplement to make all this happen; all in effort of tracking down the problem. Heroes found a much less renowned river rat crew and barge to take them down the Celduin in pursuit. captain of boat teaches them much of river craft and the places along the way, and ultimate destination is apparently a town at the confluence of the River Running and Red River. They plan their route/journey.

3) Sailed through the marsh;

4) Stopped at a small watering hole for passing ships shortly after the river turns east away from Mirkwood. Meets a downtrodden Rider of Rhovanion, Haasthven, whom they cheer up with an encounter to liven his spirits w/ story and song - though he never discloses why he's so bummed (he will show up later - travelling to same town on horseback as the heroes are sailing to). Encounter was left on good terms, so he will wind up being paramount to assisting them. They also met another elf there - a wandering elf who loves to sail the celduin. After befriending him, they learn that "wine is very much still being transported from Dorwinion - there has been no such stoppage; so this is not a problem on the river - so perhaps this problem is merely one specific winery" The Heroes never asked Thranduil to narrow down where exactly the wine originates.....uh-oh.

5) Got to a place called "The Narrows" on the river - where the water creates a shallow pool and narrowing of the ridge/river bank. Here it got interesting; They were assailed by four brigands/pirates up on the ridge line (boats coming back down the Celduin usually has money for the goods that were delivered when it came up the river). Two of them were archers (one on each side of the river) and the other two holding a rope - which had hooks on it - rope was attached to trees. As the rope gets raised by the two they lodge in boat to catch it and anchor it and make it a sitting duck.

This was an absolute fantastic encounter. The heroes and brigands exchanged bowfire, the brigands targeting the four oarsmen (obviously with them out of the way, the boat would be harder to get away). Two oarsmen dropped in the first round, one taking a piercing blow and pitching him over the side into the river. The heroes dropped one of the bowman sending him over the cliff into the river (old western movies style). Then a rope-tender went down from the heroes arrow but just a little too late; the damage was done because the hooks grabbed the boat. Heroes had to scramble to take up the oars, while another continued to lay supressing fire to the ridgeline and another had to go out on the front to hack the rope.

With the rope severed the hooks remained in the boat which the river current dragged the boat to the extent of that side of the rope baging the boat into the side of the river. Another oarsman went down - (3 out of 4 now incapacitated). Heroes had to decide as a group to make CRAFT checks to steer the boat as it's now out of control, or ATHLETICS to use strength to drive the poles into the mud and stop the boat. They chose the former as they didn't want to remain in the line of fire of the last two brigands above now both firing bows. My daughter used her arrow show TN 20 but succeeded! to cut the other end of the rope and free the boat; which then headed down the river sideways and backwards and was finding it difficult to steer.

Any hero who moved to take up an oar or to fire had to make and athletics check first to stablilize themselves in the turning boat and taking 1 endurance dmg from being tossed about; failure indicated they couldn't act as they tried to regain balance. Great / Extrodinary success helped 1 or 2 fellows to regain their balance. I made the CRAFT skill checks to regain control of the boat as an extended skill challenge requiring 10 successful CRAFT checks between all 4 people steering boat (remaining oarsman and three heroes).

Two people failed their athletics checks at one time with an EYE. They pitched overboard. Luckily both times this happened another hero made a great success on their athletics roll and was able to grab their hands at the last second. The boat continued to careen out of controll with one of the heroes dangling over the side. The saving person had to choose to let the person hold onto the rail and find a way up themself or continue to assist getting them into the boat - but removing them from being able to help steer the boat that round. My daughter had the great success that saved my wife's character (her mother) which was an awesome moment.

Finally by round 4, they had 10 successful CRAFT checks. No major injuries except the one now-drowned oarsman - no one attempted to go in the river after him - the harrowing account and mournful death resulted in 1 shadow point among everyone (had someone gone after him and rescued him, I would have awarded a point of Hope restored among the party). They had 1 dead oarsman, 2 wounded but alive, and one character took up the oars to replace the dead one.

All in all - very exciting encounter that was full of nail-biting moments, and some major cheering, too. My 11 year old daughter who was already bequeathed a title among them as the "Slayer of Trolls" (as it was her called shot that ended the stone troll in the Marsh bell), was now heralded as "Savior of hobbits" (as she saved my wife's hobbit), and "Liberator of Boats" as it was her shot that severed the rope that anchored them in place.


That was it for Friday. Next they will arrive in town at the confluence of the rivers, and learn more of Ethilions travels and his eventual fate.

Untril recently between settle area there was widness area which where lawless.
Even in the Roman Empire there where area around cities that where lawless.

Yon can have than small safe area for your patry to rest from the Shadow surround by land control by the shadow like the Forest of Loren and Riverdale. The safe area donot have the manpower to patrol the area around then all the time.

It was cheaper than earies to sent trade good down and up river an use sea and lake travel. For the same amount of cost to move good 1 mile overland to can move it 100 mile by waterway.