I have a question about Intimidate Foe.

If someone in the Forward Stance uses the Intimidate Foe Ability. Will every enemy take that hit, from the Great Orc to the little snaga? or does the Great orc just laugh at it and use his Commanding Voice to restore the order or does he take the hit too?


/Khamul

It's about loss of Hate points:
- Ordinary success: one Hate point
- Great success: two Hate points
- Extraordinary success: three Hate points

This would affect up to 3 Hate points worth of adversary. So, 3 adversaries with 1 Hate point could be routed, or a 2 Hate point adversary and reduce another by 1 Hate Point. A Great Orc would have up to 3 Hate points removed but, unless already reduced by other means, wouldn't be routed.

This came up with my group as well. I similarly was confused as GM how to adjudicate it, and came to the board for help.

Val's info was the consensus of that thread's advice as well.



Essentially if 20 orcs were chasing each with 1 Hate, 3 would peel off and high-tail it out of there.

As the GM, you could even rule that another orc chases after them to hack them down for fleeing. (though this may work better with goblins running off, and a mightier orc chasing the deserters).

You could even have a master route them back with an equally moving speech to restore their courage. That would be a good use of round spent by an orc-captain.

FWIW I agree, but then you knew that already

So youn mean if there is 20 orc's, and the hero had an ordinary success, there would be 1 Hate loss, which would mean that only 1 snaga would run away and the other ones would not be affected, right?

Basically correct. Or at least you are correct in your assignment of Hate loss.

I believe that creatures only actually run when they are at zero Hate if they are Craven (Special Ability). As standard they are Weary once they reach zero Hate and obviously can't fuel any Hate powered abilities.

Correct.


Essentially the number of Hate Points lost via use of the Intimidate Foe tactic is the TOTAL lost - spread out among the foes that are gathered (if multiple).

It's worth noting that the verbiage indicates that the points are lost as the Loremaster sees fit - in other-words, if there was a group of varying types of creatures (3 orcs with 2 HPs each, a warg with 5, and a cave-troll with 7), and the players check resulted in an Extraordinary Success (3 Hate Points lost), the Loremaster can assign 1 to each Orc, or all three to the Troll, or 2 to one orc (making it flee from the combat), and the last one to the warg, or whatever); though hopefully there's common sense and rationale to the Loremaster's al of lost points.

Good point SirKicley.

I think it's probably worth adding to what I said earlier that although LB pg65 says:

It also says:

which at least suggests the Loremaster might consider how invested the creature is in continuing with the combat once it is at zero Hate.

Hope that's helpful.

Since adversaries become Weary once reduced to 0 Hate, I think it's fair to say that most wouldn't hang around if the odds were even remotely unfavourable. Even if they remained engaged, I'd expect adversaries at 0 Hate to transition into support roles where they would perceive themselves as safer from the nasty heroes with their sharp swords and bright eyes.

I seem to have missed that rule. Where is it stated?

Under the Hate entry on page 65 of the Loremaster's Book.

Usually the situation writes that for you.

In our last session posted here at RPGG, the Mask of the Naugrim-wearing Dwarf Intimidated the attacking goblins as he shouted "Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!" He rolled an extraordinary success and all three facing him fled for the Misty Mountains!

In my recent campaign the characters were being tracked by a group of 11 wargs and 11 orcs and knew they were in trouble (4 starting chars).

They rolled extraordinary success and chose a very good ambush site but it was touch and go and they knew they needed to do very well. 3 of them had gone standard warrior and were all good at swinging or shooting but one (elf) had gone the wisdom path and only had 2 in spear.

She went with awe every round - and did better than any of the other characters! She was the only one to survive without a scratch and more orcs and wolves (all were craven) fled from her than anyone else killed.

... As a *very* rough rule of thumb and generally reduce the Hate of any creatures with the Craven trait first before others.

In addition, I also allow a player to direct such intimidation if it make sense within the circumstances - ie, I don't have a problem with them using it against the opponents actually opposing them directly in combat rather than the full set of opponents being faced in the encounter. To me that makes more sense as once the battle has begun in earnest, a character's direct opponents are paying far more attention to him whereas others are concentrating on their own foes and will be less likely to notice someone else in another part of the melee.

In the AB page 162 it states:

On a successful roll, the enemy's marale has been shaken, and the opponents lose a number of Hate Points (see Adversaries chapter in the Loremaster's book); if the roll is failed the Hero loses one point of Hope.

The number of Hate Points lost by the enemy is based on the quality of the success produced by the roll.

Ordinary Success - 1 Hate point
Great Success - 2 Hate points
Extra Ordinary - 3 Hate points

The Loremaster assigns the Hate point loss in any way he sees fit.

It states: Opponents NOT Opponent

Are you guys really sure it's just the sum of hate points (1-3 HP) and not Every adversary that are within the "hearing"area of the Intimidating that takes the amount (1-3 HP)?



/Khamul

It's the sum of the Hate points but I do think it's somewhat lacking and in my game, in the right circumstances, I could see me assigning the loss to each individual opponent. I wouldn't allow further intimidate rolls (on those opponents) after the first success though - ie, the opponents will have been initimidated already (or not) and cannot be so again.

I would think something like that too. You can do it once per battle. And maybe only to the weak adversaries... I do have a little problem with a new Hero intimidating a huge Black orc who would nothing but to roast that hero over his camp fire, yes I have trouble see him run away with his tail between his legs (if he only had lets say 3 HP's left).

But really weak snagas, I could see them run away like scared rabbits, if its not a kickass snaga...

Remember that the TN for the Intimidate action is 10 + highest Attribute level of all the opponents he is facing, so the Black Orc would be a lot harder to intimidate than a goblin.

Remember that the TN for the Intimidate action is 10 + highest Attribute level of all the opponents he is facing, so the Black Orc would be a lot harder to intimidate than a goblin.

True, but if you have Awe 3 its not that hard.

Even if they are down to zero Hate, it does not necessary means that they will run away.

True but with Awe 3 I kinda think a PC should therefore be able to intimidate a Black Orc (re: Black Uruk) and even with an extraordinary success (ie, 3 Hate point reduction) that orc isn't going to run off as it starts with 4 points. And even if it's reduced to zero it won't run away as it isn't 'craven', it'll just be wearied*.

* May be wrong here, just working from memory rather than checking the rules.

You're not wrong

Damn you Rich! damn you're good haha. Of course...doh I am
so caught up with them running away at Zero, but they just get Weary...
and if your that good in Awe I guess you are right... I am happy that I asked
so I got it right in my messy brain haha :9

Thanks guys!




/Khamul

I agree that Intimidate isn't really powerful enough. How about doubling the amount of Hate lost, and subtracting it from the lowest Hate creatures in a group first?

Well if you really read the info it clearly stats every enemy. There is really no way to say its just one foe. I states that every enemy loses 1 Hate so its really a verly powerful action.

I talked with my players yesterday and its clear

"...On a successful roll, the enemy's morale has been shaken, and the opponents ..."

Opponents = pluralis, nuff said really.


Would love for Francesco to verify this.

I don't think you're correct in your interpretation of the RAW, Khamul. I understand your reasoning but there's also this key line that you've ommited:

"The Loremaster assigns the Hate point loss in any way he sees fit."

If Hate Points came off every opponent in the way that you describe then what would be the point of the above quote?

I agree with Rich, I will add that making opponents plural was likely done because the LM could deduct 1 hate from up to three opponents, especially if facing weak opponents with only 1 hate point each. If they wrote opponent without the s it would mean that only 1 opponent could be effected by the ability, even on a great success on adversaries with only 1 hate point.

I also agree that it seems weak especially against foes with a lot of hate points, most times it will only deduct 1 hate point after all. Doubling might be worth trying. the possibility of deducting 6 seems a little crazy though. If I used it I might throw in that you dont deduct more than say 3 or 4 off the same opponent... so if you have a solo opponent with 6 hate it cant immediately lose access to all its abilities right off even if someone rolls really good. I am kinda glad that in the rules as is intimidating a real big creature like a troll seems to not be a good idea.

Another thing you could as a LM, without any official house rules, is for when fighting craven foes, if a player reduces one creatures hate to 0 and it runs... its comrades may choose to flee even if they have hate points left (seeing an ally flee tends to make fighters question why they are still fighting, and why they are standing to protect the escape of others) this might be so even for opponents that are not craven. That is just because they have the courage to fight does not mean that they will decide that fighting is their best option. I think many real routes in battle field situations start with only a handful but escalate as comrades see alllies leaving they decide to leave, and then others who at first held fast seeing more and more of their allies flee decide to get out before they are standing by themselves and overwhelmed.

I do have to say in the first adventure I ran there were plenty of orc soldiers and goblin archers (all with 1 hate and craven) and the players used intimidate foe to great effect. There was one fight were they were facing 12 orcs, and 2 heroes did intimidate foe and they rolled very good, one great success routing 2 and the other an extraordinary routing 3, so they effectively cut the opposition almost in half! They turned what would have been a difficult fight where they would be outnumbered 2 to 1 into an easy fight where they were almost even in numbers. Due to this success players in my group seem to like intimidate foe, at least the ones with 3 awe do anyway. Thankfully they have never tried to intimidate anything significantly larger than themselves up to date.

True, I can see your point too Rich. And that is ALWAYS the up to the one who am the LM, he can do what ever he wants with the rules. But it is a bit confusing, right, first it say something and they it says something else.

But hey, how the logistics in this game works.... I guess someone tossed a D100 in the air everytime they wanted to place a skill, or rule on a specific page... This game needs a 2nd ed cause it's beautiful and I love it, but every time I wanna find a rule in the book it gives me grey hair.... But I love this game, and when we played last saturday we had such a blast with To Journey's End and Eagle Eyrie...That advaanture is great and we have had a blast so far...we are almost done with it....and then its of the Tales of the Wilderland....and beyond

/K

I think one thing to bear in mind is that while a creature with no Hate is so nervous as to be shaking in his boots (i.e. Weary), one with diminished Hate should still be roleplayed as nervous and making mistakes.

Hate is a measurement of commitment and confidence, so even losing 1 or 2 points ought to have an impact on how the creature is roleplayed.

Don't forget those orc captains and chieftains with Commanding Voice.

'Get back in the fight you maggots or I'll stick you myself.'

They can make a big difference to the craven nature of lesser orcs.

We played the first three parts "Of Leaves & Stewed Hobbit" tonight and the players became painfully aware of just how important the Intimidate Foe task is and consequently how important having a decent amount of ranks in Awe or Battle is.

During the battle at the Ringfort, they struggled to take down the Goblins and the Orc soldiers quick enough because they relied too much on striking with their weapons and did not even try the Intimidate Foe task. When it was all-over-said-and-done, 1 of the player-heroes died of a Wound after a failed Healing test. Another companion was Wounded and down to 5 Endurance points and Weary. The other was reduced to 4 Endurance and Weary, but not Wounded. During the battle, their allies killed 2 Orcs, but three of the allies were Wounded and 1 of them was slain.

During the last combat round, I rolled a Gandalf rune on the Allies in Battle table, signaling that the allies cut the head off an Orc. All the regular Orc soldiers had already been slain, so I ruled that the allies took down dread Ubhurz, the Great Orc leader and saved the companions!

We ended the session there, but I wonder if the player-heroes can make it the rest of the adventure. I told them they needed to start using Intimidate Foe to reduce the creatures' Hate points so that they will either grow Weary or run away if they have the Craven special ability. They just complained that they didn't have enough Awe or Battle skill.

I feel like I'm playing a different rules-set than James.

We find the Encounter rules awkward and unhelpful.

Intimidate is near-useless.

None of the PCs has been wounded yet, much less killed.

Another voice testifying to the efficacy of Intimidate Foe - just yesterday, I had a group encounter a warg-pack (similar to a sort of a random, sandboxy wandering monster encounter) that I really did think would be my first TPK, 8 wargs vs. 4 new-ish PCs.

It was one of the more intense combats and intimidate foe (as well as rally companion) played a large role in its successful outcome - well, at least the PCs survival.

The players were investigating a cavern which was reported to be a periodic base for a band of goblins and the PCs had just dispatched a small guard contingent when howls erupted behind them. They quickly tried to Stealth out of there (at least to see what they were up against) but failed miserably. The wolves came into view and the PCs, after firing a shot or two from their greatbows, decided to skeddadle. Wasn't going to happen, though - the wargs were on them so, the PCs decided to make a stand. Pretty epic early moment.

The PCs did some light, early damage via missile fire, then the pack struck, fairly quickly seizing both of the more up-front melee fighters who were also facing-off against multiple opponents (in an outnumbered fight, I usually assign monsters randomly and, in this case, the wargs swarmed the two fighters in defensive stance).

As things were looking grim with the two seized PCs beginning to have their Endurance whittled down, the other 2 PCs stepped-up with a couple of successful Intimdate Foe and Rally Companion rolls (this was an all-Barding group, by the way). This wearied a critical number of wargs, which made it difficult for them to hit the seized PCs. Add to that a couple of timely G-runes and piercing blows and the tide turned - eventually, most wargs either fled or were slain.

I did have one PC knocked unconscious and another left with less than 10 Endurance, but surprisingly no wounds. So, after a short rest (and, thankfully no more random encounters), the group hightailed it, with a lesson learned.

A lesson that showed immediately after - I ruled that the group returned to their outpost having, at least, identified and done some small damage to the goblin hold. They rested and refitted and were sent back out in the Summer (the warg attack occurred in Spring). While on a side hunting excursion, the PCs were jumped by a small band of goblins. The 2 PCs that had successfully used Intimidate and Rally earlier both jumped into the fray with more successful Intimidate rolls (one great, another ordinary), and goblins started peeling off left and right, with the band finally collapsing altogether after a couple of rounds and running for the hills.

@Ovid, would love to hear more about where you're encountering trouble.

I agree that the PCs are very durable (sometimes surprisingly so, as discovered yesterday myself) especially for someone like me coming to TOR from Classic versions of D&D, where lethality is high. If your PCs are cakewalking, I'd suggest upping the encounter challenge, by either substituting tougher opponents, increasing their numbers, or adding additional special abilities (especially if you want more tactical use of PC combat stances and tasks).

It's why RPGs are play-tested and then why we all invariably house-rule RPGs - the gaming experience can be so different from group to group.

For what it's worth I'm in between the two of you - I find the Encounter Rules okay (though I can see why you don't) and Intimidate as near-useless (except in very specific situations). Which kind of illustrates my comment in the paragraph above - 3 gamers with quite varied views!

Ovid, see my comments in the other thread concerning encounters. When the Tolerance rating is set higher (4+), I find it a bit awkward too, mainly because of two things: First, my players seem to have a hard time coming up with dialogue beyond their main goal. Secondly, knowing that 7+ successes means they are going to gain the greatest benefits out of the meeting, they don't want to stop short of that possibility - if they don't have to. That's all I'll say right now about that (more on the other thread maybe).

Concerning Intimidate Foe, a Goblin Archer has only 1 Hate Point and is Craven, but it has 8 Endurance points. It would take just a successful use of Intimidate Foe to cause one of them to flee at the beginning of the round. A great or extraordinary success would cause 2 or 3 of them to flee. However, most of my player-heroes would need to hit a Goblin Archer twice to drop him (or once with a great success). In the Battle at the Ringfort, there are 5 Goblin Archers for every player-hero. There is also 1 Orc Soldier for every player-hero. They have 12 Endurance points each (a little tougher), but only 1 Hate point and are also Craven. When the player-heroes defeat the Orc Soldiers, the rest of the Goblins flee anyway.

So, you can see that Intimidate Foe is extremely important and useful in that battle versus straight attacks.

Lastly, my current player-heroes do not wear very much armour. I think the highest rating among them is 2d. The other two have 1d. So, when a Piercing blow strikes them, they are easily Wounded. Then, if they drop to zero Endurance while Wounded, they are dying and are only given 1 chance to be treated successfully or they die. The Woodman has Healing 4, but he was Weary when he made the roll and failed with a total of 4! So, the Hobbit died.