Let's say I want to go to Gondor. Let's also say that I'm way behind on my standard gaming materials and do not have a color-coded hex grid map of the entire region. Anyone have any advice for figuring out how this might work?

Where does your journey commence from?

I saw somewhere that you can fit the whole of the British Isles into Mirkwood... so I guess if you want to journey somewhere without the map, you'd have to work out the distance yourself from the maps in the books, and then take into account the difficulty of terrain, and try comparing it to a roughly similar route within Rhovanion. That or you can just wait for the supplements I suppose

Hi, Chamomile.

Journeying from Wilderland to Gondor is a major piece of travel. I would guess it was outside the intended scope of the Journey rules, as being likely to accrue so much Fatigue that the Player-Heroes would be run ragged before they got there! Or trying to do it in a single-leg Journey would represent the sort of forced travel appropriate only to a 'feat of endurance' Adventure to carry an urgent message against a time limit or something...

Or if the travel isn't directly tied into an adventure, TOR is perfectly happy with letting people go long distances in 'downtime', handwaving the exercise and just saying, "After travelling through the springtime months you arrive in Gondor in early summer..."

I know this is avoiding the question. But do you really need to go into TOR Journey mechanics for it?

Cheers,
--Os.

Actually this isn't as hard as it seems. You're not going to get it perfect, but a fair approximation should work.

1) Use Tolkien's map from The Fellowship of the Ring or The Two Towers.
2) Have the players indicate their travel route from origin to Gondor.
3) Measure the route with a normal ruler.
4) Compare the measurement to the map's scale of miles.
5) Every 10 miles is another hex crossed.
6) Consider the terrain, time period and presence of evil creatures. (See below)
7) Proceed following the normal Journey Rules to determine each leg and the length of time it takes to complete that leg.

Step 6 is very subjective:
Terrain: Take a look at any detailed maps of Middle-earth terrain that you can get your hands on. They don't have to be very accurate, you're looking for a rough idea of the terrain the character's are traveling through so you know the Journey terrain modifiers.
Time Period: Just in case you've set your campaign at a different time period than the standard TOR timeline (T.A. 2946 and later), adjusting terrain, events or evil presence accordingly.
Evil Creatures: Remember there are various battles, the rise and fall of evil creatures through out Middle-earth, etc. Try to adjust for them in a general way.


You must create Sanctuaries along the route, otherwise the characters will not be able to recover fatigue or Hope. I would suggest Inns, maybe a kind-hearted farmer or two (ie, Farmer Maggot). You might even use a merchant caravan where the duties are shared, perhaps at a reduced rate (because the conditions are not optimal for recovery).

I will assume that you are intending to travel from Wilderland to Gondor. The first thing I would do(have done), is dispense with the idea of the hex map and just get a detailed map of the area. These can be found in various old Merp publications or in 'the Atlas of Middle Earth' by Karen Wynne Fonstad. This is currently still in print(afaik) and any decent bookshop should be able to get it for you.

The distances can be worked out quite easily using that source. It is also obvious what the major obstacles are as well.

Travelling from the Anduin Vales is certainly easier that travelling from Dale. The river is the most direct route until it reaches the Emyn Muil. From there, I would say it is overland along the base f the Eastwall of Rohan and then skirt the western edge of the Wetwang/Vales of the Entwash.

Travelling from Dale would involve following the River Running south until it exits Mirkwood and the Long Marshes. The journey would then be overland to the south undeep on the Anduin skirting Mirkwood and the East Bight. Once across the Anduin it would be much the same as the other route.

Most of the journeys would be on wild land, with borderland in northern Rohan and pockets of Shadow land on the plains of Rhovanion.

Attempts to cross the Emyn Muil, Dead Marshes and Dagorlad into Northern Ithilien are tantamount to suicide as these are Shaowlands and many blighted areas.

The distance from Esgaroth to Minas Tirith is not much greater than that from the Trollshaws to the Iron Hills, and involves one fewer goblin-infested mountain range and one fewer spider-stuffed super-forest. Managing a journey from Wilderland to Gondor is clearly within the capabilities of the TOR Journey system.

Assuming that the party have any sense, they will want to stay as far away from Mordor as possible. The best route would be to sail down Anduin to Rauros (or the start of the Emyn Muil) and then decamp to the western shore and skirt the Entwash delta until Anórien. Fortunately, much of this journey is described in LotR, as it is taken by the Fellowship after leaving Lórien. Distances can be easily established from the LotR map, and Terrain and Region type is relatively simple to set. If the party is travelling overland from eastern Wilderland, then they will still probably want to pass into Rohan north of the Emyn Muil, and thus it is the area south-east of Mirkwood that needs Terrain and Region type assigning to it (a mix of wild/shadow and moderate/hard, depending on proximity to Dol Guldur and terrain type).

It is a long journey, certainly, and you will need to consider the different types of Hazard and Adventure likely to be faced in the various regions, be it a band of orcish horse-thieves looking to cross Anduin into Rohan, Easterling tomb-robbers exploring the Field of Celebrant, or the rapids of Sarn Gebir. The party will also have the opportunity to explore a number of iconic s: Parth Celebrant, the Argonath, Amon Lhaw and Amon Hen, any of which could be the worthy focus of a single session, or even individual Adventure. Suitable sanctuaries might be found amongst the Rohirrim (on the Wold, west downs, and East Emnet), or perhaps even at Parth Galen.

The various regions along the River might be something like:
Southern Nether Vale: wild, moderate
Parth Celebrant: wild, moderate
The Wold: wild, moderate
Brown Lands: shadow, hard.
West Downs (between Wold and Emyn Muil): wild, moderate.
East Downs (between Brown Lands and Emyn Muil): wild, moderate
Western Emyn Muil: wild, hard.
Eastern Emyn Muil: shadow, hard.
Dead Marshes: dark, severe.
Nindalf: shadow, severe.
East Emnet: border, easy.
Entwash delta: wild, hard.
North Ithilien: shadow, moderate.
Anórien: free, easy.

Halbarad,

I'll give you the Emyn Muil (jagged, volcanic glass content) and the Dead Marshes (Undead) being deadly travel routes for the reasons cited.

Dagorlad may not be as bad as you are suggesting though because Sauron has been "dead / missing" from Middle-earth for a thousand years now. And the Necromancer is not Sauron. (In the sense that Sauron is playing the part of some other evil NPC and actively trying to prevent the Wise from learning that the Necromancer is actually Sauron. So their is a lot of coercion, instigation, subterfuge, hiding, stealthy movement, etc by the Necromancer and his forces as well as Sauron's forces in Mordor.) Keep in mind that the Nazgul are known to have returned to Mordor and are present in Minas Morgul (Ithil) at least.

Sauron will not re-appear for another five years (T.A. 2951).

So while there are definitely going to be both obvious and hidden positions held and patrolled by evil creatures, I'm not sure that a route through the Dagorlad is suicide. Staying south of the Dead Marshes and north of the Morannon would be difficult and definitely shadowlands with areas being blighted, but theoretically possible.

Of course, given half a chance I would suggest the western bank of the Anduin from north of lake Nen Hithoel, and the Falls of Rauros, onward.

I know what you mean Garn. I didn't mean that each individual was suicide.I meant that to follow a route that traversed all three was. I suppose I wasn't clear about that though. Basically, I agree with your post.

I have the ICE map that came with the MERP Campaign pack.

As the crebain flies, from the Forest Gate to Minas Tirith is around 600 miles.

Previous posters rightly suggested that it's a tough trek and would take some time.

When the Fellowship made the trip from Rivendell to Gondor, they called at 'sanctuaries' in Lorien and Medusheld, although in the latter case it was not a sanctuary until they dealt with Wormtongue.

In Unfinished Tales, Tolkien has Isildur leave Osgiliath to reach Rivendell, giving us a nice example of travelling.

“He (Isildur) therefore determined to make his way north from Osgiliath up the Vales of Anduin to Cirith Forn en Andrath, the high-climbing pass of the North (the High Pass), that led down to Imladris. He knew the land well, for he had journeyed there often before the War of the Alliance, and had marched that way to the war with men of eastern Arnor in the company of Elrond.”

With this choice of itinerary, Isildur expects to reach Imladris in forty days. As stated above, he knew the land well, and they were 'stern men of Arnor and war-hardened', with a good part of the retinue being composed of mounted knights.

"He had no fear, save for weather and weariness, but these men must endure whom need sends far abroad in Middle-earth."

Then, the plan goes a bit awry... (must have rolled a whole bunch of Eyes...!)

Francesco

@Rusty

I think that you have got the modification levels just about right for the various regions. The only one I'm not too sure on is the Nindalf/Wetwang, though that's more with a lack of knowledge of the area on my part.
Why is it shadow land and why harder to traverse than the Entwash Vales?

Concerning terrain, Tolkien's maps use different symbols for the Nindalf and the Entwash delta. The Nindalf is described with the same symbol as the Dead Marshes and Gladden Fields, and, indeed, the text suggests that the Dead Marshes may be the result of previous encroachment into Dagorlad by the Nindalf. The symbol used for the Entwash delta, however, is the same as that for the Anduin delta, and is suggestive more of multiple river branches than an actual swamp. The TOR map designates the Gladden fields as Severe, and so I proposed a Severe rating for Nindalf. As Tolkien suggests that Nindalf and Entwash delta are sufficiently different in terrain to warrant an alternative cartographic symbol, I proposed an alternative terrain with a rating lower by one category. More generally, multiple river channels are surely simpler - or, at least, less dangerous - to traverse than outright swampland.

Concerning shadow, I wanted to distinguish between the banks of the Anduin and proximity to Mordor. The Entwash delta has the Great River between it and Mordor, and lies between Rohan and Gondor; it borders Anórien and Eastemnet, both green and pleasant countries. Nindalf, however, edges onto the Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes, and is separated from the Ephel Duath only by a strip of Ithilien. It might also be thought that stagnant marshes are inherently more misery-inducing than free-flowing water.

I doubt I'd throw a tantrum if a Loremaster running a game I was in came to different conclusions. The shadow rating of Nindalf, in particular, could easily be moved down a category, although I suspect later in the period - particularly after Ithilien's abandonment and the reconstruction of Barad-dur - a shadow land rating would be the minimum appropriate. Indeed, it's possible that the shadow land rating I gave to North Ithilien itself was excessive for the years before 2951.

I have to disagree with the Nindalf rating.

We know next to nothing about the Nindalf other than it is some kind of wetlands. Tolkien gives us nothing more that I recall (but I could be mistaken). Wild and Hard I would accept as a starting point, to be adjusted as Sauronic influence in Middle-earth increases. By the time of the War of the Ring it is at least Shadow, Hard. Mostly due to the area having spies and watchers to this possible approach to Mordor.

But comparing it to the Gladden Fields doesn't work. Within TOR the evil in the Gladden Fields is inferred from Sauron's & Saruman's search for the One Ring - not for it's normal inhabitants or intrinsic lethality. (For some reason I recall the Gladden Fields as being a flower-infested wetlands.)

The Long Marsh itself is not a valid comparison as it is not a named from Tolkien. Tolkien only provides the following about the Men-i-Naugrim (Dwarf-road aka Old [Forest] Road) to Thorin & Co regarding their trek through Mirkwood:

Thus almost everything we know about the Long Marshes has been created by others, not Tolkien.

Citation needed.


Long Marshes ≠ Dead Marshes.


LTR.

Halbarad,
Nindalf (S. "wet flat field", for a full translation; Wetwang is the common Westron name as "wang" is an archaic term for a "flat field") is the large wetlands immediately south and east of the Falls of Rauros. Opposite the Entwash river. From the Falls of Rauros, if you head southeast through the Nindalf, you come almost directly to the Morannon and the Black Gate of Mordor.

There is some implication that the Nindalf exists as groundwater seepage from Nen Hithoel (the lake pouring out water as the Falls [everyone remembers the falls' name, not the lakes]) and/or the Entwash pushing some waters eastward, out of the Anduin, and onto "land". Thus I would imagine that the Anduin is at ground level on both sides of the river here (ie, there are no river banks to keep water from meandering all over the place). Although I think the western side is perhaps a tad higher as otherwise the two rivers would flow differently and the marsh would be on the western bank of the river.

If you play LotRO, the small swamp outside of Buckland, would be a perfect example of the general river water / land mix situation. Although obviously the Nindalf is much larger.

MERP's Gates of Mordor has a map that shows the area we are talking about here. Although it barely shows any of the western bank of the river.

Anyway, it seems to me that the Nindalf is actually going to be a very rich biome. Consisting of a thriving freshwater marsh with plentiful bio-diversity, particularly with regards to migratory birds, fish, reptiles and amphibians along with small mammals. Larger (medium dog-sized and up) mammals I'm not to sure about. To a certain extent, the Entwash and Nindalf are opposite sides of the same situation. Any life forms capable of living in more open terrain / waters would be along the west bank while smaller, more elusive creatures, would survive in the Nindalf. This could be a marsh (extensive aquatic grassland with few trees) or a swamp (far less reeds, more trees). Fen or bog is possible as well (has to do with acidity of water and peat formation) although seems a bit less likely simply because their is too much fresh, aerated water (the Falls). Although it could be mixed with the eastern end being more of a bog due to less water movement.

It's main claim to any evil is it's proximity to Mordor. I am sure that their are periods when Mordor maintains some kind of presence in the area - it's simply military expedience. Otherwise it presents little or no benefit, or penalty, to Mordor's efforts. We have no idea if it is ever settled.


Rusty,
Hobbits, used to live there. Thus at one time it must have been a very nice as the Hobbits are not warriors and flee danger.

As for Sauron & Saruman searching the area, read the official Timeline, Appendix B, Third Age 2939 and 2941.

If you wish to argue that, in TOR, there is evil in the Gladden fields specifically because of Saruman and Sauron's actions then you need to supply a reference from TOR. It's how citation works.

Even if you did find such a reference, the suggested attention of Saruman and Sauron is unlikely to change the Terrain of an area. I compared the Terrain of Gladden to the Terrain of Nindalf. You are representing me as comparing the Shadow of Gladden to the Shadow of Nindalf.

If you "have to disagree" then do me the courtesy of disagreeing with what I wrote and not what you imagine I wrote.

So, a lot of these responses have been very helpful, but I would like to point out that my using Gondor as a destination was just an example of some place off the edge of the current map.

Still, I feel my question has been pretty much answered, so thanks for that.