Is the Lake-Town Sourcebook available in PDF Format? If not, will it be made available in PDF Format?

I apologize if this has been asked and answered previously, but when I tried a forum search I kept getting an error.

No, SG/C7 have not made this available in pdf & probably won't - they removed the pdfs of their previous publications & have not reposted them.

They have not announced the reason, though it likely stems from legal issues. Most of us have reluctantly resolved to make do soley with the hard copies (which are beautiful ).

When SG/C7 removed all PDFs from the TOR product line (only), they did so without warning or explanation. They stated that PDFs would not be available until further notice. (Note, that this behavior is standard procedure for any dispute between contractual partners since their is almost always a non-disclosure clause.)

There was quite a bit of discussion and guessing immediately after this notice was posted. However, nothing further was said. Since then, the following information has come to the community's attention: Tolkien Estate Law Suit, Reason for the lack of PDFs?

I believe most of the community assume that PDFs will remain unavailable until this legal issue is resolved. I don't believe that this will hamper SG/C7 (or any other official license holder) from offering product(s) with the exception that it must be tangible - real items that can be physically touched.

It would be nice if they were only unable to sell online, but if they could sell a CD with the PDFs, maybe enclosed in the book. I like reading books, but I can browse/search through PDFs more easily, print the maps, and so on...

"I like reading books, but I can browse/search through PDFs more easily, print the maps, and so on... "

I am the exact opposite; I'll go the book route any day of the week. I tried running a Judge Dredd RPG game using my tablet once, and it was a nightmare trying to find the info I wanted when I needed it. It is just so much easier to flip through a book.

Either way I wouldn't hold your breath expecting TOR PDFs coming back.

I printed the index so it is quite easy to find what you are looking for with the index on table. I dislike having PCs during game sessions. But I would have liked to have them both if I had the chance.

That would fail to explain though why they pulled the printed The One Ring Collection book at the same time. Again without a word of explanation. It's still in their store (even said to be "in stock"). That lawsuit may be quite unrelated.

I would assume they pulled the Gencon book because it contained Words of the Wise, which was a pdf only adventure to start with, making it non-tangible and therefore subject to the lawsuit. That's my guess anyway, but then, we can but speculate

It's probably easier to approach this sideways.... Please note that the following is my uneducated guess - I have no more facts than you do on this matter.

If the Tolkien Estate (TE) and Middle-earth Enterprises (MeE) are in the middle of a dispute over what constitutes "tangible goods excluding literary works" and you're producing a game in paper & electronic book formats, you definitely want to garner as much good will with the courts as possible. So prompt compliance and avoiding the appearance of impropriety or trying to circumvent the law (ie, sale of PDF disks) shows good faith. Similarly, the TOR Collection Gencon 2012 book gets "anti-grandfathered" - included rather than excluded - since it contains one of the intangible items probably mentioned by name in talks prior to filing the lawsuit.

While SG/C7 are not specifically named, and may never be named as a direct litigant, someone would definitely have contacted them about this matter. It could have been Tolkien Enterprises, Middle-earth Enterprises or Warner Brothers (TOR's license might be considered a movie related spin-off product). SG/C7 as a duly licensed business partner are not acting outside of the scope of the license they properly obtained. Therefore they are not in danger of any kind of cease and desist order or anything remotely like that. (Whoever sold them the license might be in trouble though.)

Ultimately, the question is what did Tolkien contractually agree to license to MeE? The inclusion of the term "tangible" makes a substantial difference. Particularly since "literary works" are specifically excluded, as those rights were retained by Tolkien and inherited by his Estate.

Regardless, the TE has previously re-negotiated terms with MeE in order to account for outstanding issues. The TE was suitably remunerated retroactively based on the results of litigation and the court's judgement. There is no reason to believe they will not do the same here.

BTW, as I understood things, Tolkien didn't believe their was much interest or money to be had selling bric-a-brac and it caused quite a lot of annoying legal wrangling and mumbo-jumbo. (My terminology and seriously imposing my recollection of ancient [MERP was young!] hearsay/gossip there. So this paragraph may be categorically wrong.)


PS: Before anyone asks, "literary works" would cover books in, on or about Middle-earth, Tolkien, his writings (of any kind), posthumous publications by other authors or editors, etc. Basically if it's a book and involves Tolkien, it's the Estates - not MeE's. (And the reason I think MERP, CODA and TOR existed outside of that is because they are games - I'm sure miniatures helped.)

Well, if digital distribution is not included in their license, the PDF format would have to be pulled. But content is not format. A printed version of content X would be OK where a digitally distributed (intangible) version of the same content would not.

The Word of the Wise in itself is just as "intangible" as Tales of Wilderland. The ban on "intangible" stuff isn't relevant. The fact that it was once offered as a PDF isn't relevant either. It would mean only that they must stop offering the PDF version, which they did.

So it would be nice if you're right, because then The Word of the Wise might appear in print one day once somebody puts his Holy Seal of Approval on it.

You're correct, but you're ignoring the need to garner that good will. Going into court, with a potentially seriously pissed-off judge, is not a sound legal maneuver.

You might find soloing a family of ravenous Mountain Trolls easier to deal with.

If I am correct, then a professional judge would not really have much choice, would he? Going by his own childish feelings of being hurt would not help his career much.

If you are defying the law and flaunting it will not put you in the good graces of a standing Judge. They do usually have some leeway on how thy pass down a verdict. If you are shown as following the law then he will be more inclined to be lenient, if you aren't then he will more then likely throw the book at you.

All of the "judge should do (X)" comments don't mean much, unless the speaker has experience with that field of law in the country the suit is in. No one here should assume that their common sense and reason is an accurate representation of how the law works.

True, I am going on my, very limited, knowledge of court proceedings (I've in a court room once...quite frankly that was enough for me). Yes, a judge is supposed to be impartial, however, he/she is still human and if they think that their authority, or authority of a fellow judge, is not being adhered to on purpose you could have a problem in future dealings. Being in the good graces of the judge never hurts.

I'm still laughing over your last sentence

Seriously though, unless any of us are attorneys actually involved in this case, everything we say is pure speculation & heresay, & has the potential to become injurious to SG/C7.

I'd strongly recommend that we avoid conversations about this topic (since there isn't anything any of us can do about it anyway), & stick to having fun with the game. I'd hate to see anything we post on here cause them any problems