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voidstate
Posted: Oct 19 2011, 06:51 AM
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How would you go about allowing characters to learn new languages? Several characters in the books have learnt elvish but I can also see characters in the Wilderlands learning the dialects of others peoples.

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Phantom-doodler
Posted: Oct 19 2011, 10:12 AM
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I dont see why a character couldnt learn a language from an npc during a Fellowship phase, or studying in Rivendell or another sanctuary.
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zanshin
Posted: Oct 19 2011, 11:20 AM
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We houserule one additional language/lore point

Starting characters have a rudimentary understanding of the language that will improve through study and exposure to the language in play.
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Valarian
Posted: Oct 19 2011, 12:30 PM
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Doesn't Elven-Lore include Elvish as a language? Can't remember the traits off-hand. Are there similar culture-lore traits for the other cultures. If so, that could include the cultural language and would be picked up in Fellowship phases.


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RangerOfIthilien
Posted: Oct 19 2011, 01:34 PM
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I find the way languages are handled in TOR to be somewhat of a weak point of the system (at least insofar as how new ones are learned). It provides for a starting characters language skills, but lumping language into another skill that covers a wider area of 'lore' is a problematic point. This specifically applies to elvish, and brings up the problem of what skill(s) apply to the human tongues? Folk-lore makes no mention of knowledge of human languages. I like the idea of working the fellowship phase into learning a language, but through what mechanic?

One of the most common lines on any fantasy RPG character sheet is the one for languages, however when I perused TOR's sheet surprisingly there is no spot to note this information. Those games that feature the line for languages sadly do no include much in the way of a reason for it let alone ever use this information in games. In a game anchored firmly in a setting that arguably is a creation for linguistic reasons, and that prominently highlights this in the story, there is oddly lacking information for working this into the game. The section on Encounters all but glosses over the fact that the ability to communicate with someone in their native tongue is a great advantage in avoiding misunderstanding and conveying intent and purpose. One would think that being able to use the other party's language would provide some positive benefit to the encounter as far as mechanics go, and conversely having to use a "go between" language would hinder the players efforts to some extent.

Further as has been shown in the books, many times the elves have positive reaction to those that have knowledge of their speech, and in our world I've found that knowing at least common phrases and such in the tongue of a foreign host gets one off on the right foot when dealing with the locals. This is something I'll definitely be creating a method for working into my game.


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Kaltharion
Posted: Oct 19 2011, 04:16 PM
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One thing to keep in mind is that there are not very many distinct languages around in Northwest Middle Earth.
This is how I understand the languages in Middle Earth. I could be completely wrong, but this is how I remember the lore.

All of the Mannish cultures speak a basic common language rooted in the ancient tongue of Man from the 1st age. They have distinct regional dialects, but all can understand one another.
The Hobbit's language, if they had they're own distinct language, has died out.
Elvish, or Sindarin, is the only spoken language of the Elves in Middle Earth. Quenya, the Language or the Noldor, has been relegated to use only among the few Noldor that remain in ME and only in ceremonies that would use such an ancient tongue.

And the Dwarves don't teach their language to anyone, period. It is theirs and theirs alone.

There is also the Black Speech of Mordor, and the languages of the Haradrim and the Easterlings, but as a storyteller, i would really like to know how a PC would come to pick up those languages...


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Valarian
Posted: Oct 19 2011, 04:29 PM
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Just checked the books now I'm home. The entry for the folk-lore trait does mention that having the trait includes "a smattering of the appropriate language". However, the trait is a specialty which can't be gained during the fellowship phase. Looks like, by the book, there's no learning new languages - only the ones picked up at character development.

As a possible house rule, the way to learn new languages could be for the character to spend a Fellowship phase gaining the trait for the culture. I'd probably rule, as GM, that the Fellowship phase be spent at an appropriate . I'd allow this as gaining a new specialty, rather than replacing one (unlike the distinctive features).


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Using Ultimate FGII and can accept unlicensed player connections on some of the games.
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Phantom-doodler
Posted: Oct 20 2011, 07:09 AM
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I guess it all depends how much you consider language to be important in your games. Personally, I find it easier to assume that players can get by, without it being a major obstacle, so that the story can go on. Unless the story hinges on a crucial obscure text or phrase, I dont tend to get bogged down with who knows what. But of course, some gamers like this level of realism, so the Lore skill could serve as an indication of languages known. I still think that given a few weeks down time, players should be able to pick up a smattering of local languages, without needing to spend experience or advancement points.
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thriddle
Posted: Oct 20 2011, 05:07 PM
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I think that's probably the point. Let's not kid ourselves here - I'm sure Francesco and co considered this question. As people say, it's a bit of a FRPG staple. I would guess they thought that it would be complex and perhaps confusing for those new to Tolkein, and not a great return on that investment in terms of fun.

I think I may want to houserule it somehow, though. I just like the idea of the PCs being inspired enough by their companions to want to learn a new language.
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voidstate
Posted: Oct 21 2011, 05:42 AM
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I think I'll allow it as a new kind of Undertaking during a Fellowship Phase.

New Undertaking: Learn Language
This is an extended action, requiring 3 successes. One success gives a smattering, two gives a good knowledge and 3, fluency. The TN is 12 for dialects of a language already known, 14 for new languages and 16 for difficult, ancient or shadow languages (Quenya or Black Speech). A teacher reduces the difficulty a level, only having books to learn from (but not hearing it) raises the difficulty a level. Rolls can be made over several Undertakings to reach fluency.

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Verderer
Posted: Oct 21 2011, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE (Kaltharion @ Oct 19 2011, 08:16 PM)
There is also the Black Speech of Mordor, and the languages of the Haradrim and the Easterlings, but as a storyteller, i would really like to know how a PC would come to pick up those languages...

And orks and trolls etc. seem to speak their twisted (or rude) form of common as well?
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