I have this half formed idea of writing a campaign that sees the heroes venture into the Grey Mountains to reclaim something important from Dain's Hall.

I'm thinking the area is teaming with orcs (even after the Battle of 5 armies) so it will be a dangerous quest.

I'm thinking a nasty Cold Drake will be a major obstacle to overcome/avoid.


I think my main problem is coming up with a really solid reason for a bunch of adventures to venture into such a dangerous place.


Also need some ideas for twists and sidetracks to spice things up.


Like I said it's only a half formed notion at the moment and I guess I've started this thread to bounce some ideas around.

So any ideas are welcome.

I always liked the idea of a surviving one of the sevens. I think all of them are destroyed and gone but the idea really entertains me and I think it is a really good motivator for an epic quest. Trying to find one of the Dwarven rings! Perhaps a really old dwarf tells a story about a magical ring that some other dwarf told him when they were young and the players learn how that ring was got lost in a cave somewhere in Grey Mountains. I haven't thought about the details but I just like the idea of a group trying to find one of the sevens. There could be some nice dramatic moments in the game too, after all even a nice jewel makes people go all greedy and psycho, so imagine what the thought of finding a ring of power would do to them.

Poosticks7,
Trying to re-enter the Halls of Dáin I seems like a very bold campaign. One that would have to provide a serious enticement. Otherwise it is the equivalent of Balin's attempt to re-settle Moria... a reckless waste of resources on a project doomed to fail.

My suggestion would be to work this as an extended Fetch/Recovery quest. King Dain II Ironfoot finds, in cleaning and organizing Erebor after Smaug's demise, a reference to something which ultimately leads back to Dáin's Halls.

Considering it's Dain II we're talking about here, it cannot be a treasure item; Dain's actions make it clear he does not have Dragon-Sickness. So he would not place anyone at risk for something that is just a priceless bauble. Possible quest goal items are:

• some item with great historical and cultural significance that was removed from Moria (crown, hammer, history book, lineage book, etc)
• recovering lost mining knowledge (maybe it's a list of where mithril veins were found in Moria - thus precipitating Balin's re-settlement effort)
• re-learning a crafting technique whose secrets were thought lost
• combat knowledge or skill (offensive or defensive) which may be of use in the future (I imagine every culture in the area expects a battle with the Necromancer eventually)
• considering the rushed exodus, perhaps a caravan of females & children (with minimal guards - they were fighting Durin's Bane, after all) were sent elsewhere and upon learning of this, Dain II feels compelled to find out what happened to them - maybe they're still around

Depending on how you want to arrange the sub-quests, I would suggest saving the Cold Drake until the last couple of adventures. Perhaps about (End - 4) adventures the Party is warned away from a dragon's lair by natives. In (End - 3) adventures the Party see the dragon way off in the distance. In (End - 2) adventures the party enters the Halls and has an extended battle with Orcs (which should throw the players off the forth coming dragon!), gets what they came for and high-tails it out of Dáin's Halls. Perhaps rushing into the waiting jaws of the dragon in the final adventure (ummm... honest I didn't pre-plan the pun: the End). Yes, of course they still have to get back to Erebor and all, but the return trip can be whatever you decide to make of it.

A couple of things to keep in mind:

• Dáin's Halls are unnamed as far as I know.
• The of Dáin's Halls is unknown as far as I know.
• You would have to create this entire Dwarven settlement from scratch.
• You should give some consideration to other, nearby Dwarven Settlements, since these would likely have been attacked by other Dragons and plundered.
• There is some indication that Cold-drakes were either dying out and/or being driven out from the Grey Mountains prior to the Hobbit.
• The “Official” lifespan of Dragons of any kind in Middle-earth is: Unknown.
• Of all the known dragons, the longest lived (officially) is Glaurang, at 239 years old. His original appearance was as a young, immature dragon and he died in battle; lifespan can only be determine by conjecture.
• I believe, that the origin of dragons is debated. Some fans suggest dragons are like balrogs, that there is a spirit or Maia (or the lower order, the E-something) inhabiting a bodily form (hroa). Other fans state that dragons are natural in origin, but warped by Morgoth (kind of like Trolls and Orcs were). So... YMMV

Well, I hope this is of some use to you. Continue to ask questions and post comments, besides gaining additional help for yourself, you might inspire someone else.


Farinal,
You might want to take a look at the following threads for relevant information:
Goblins and Wicked Dwarves (Dwarves and Rings of Power)
Brothers Across the Green Sea (Using a Ring of Power in a campaign)
They are both long threads, but have some pertinent information with regards to the idea you are considering. Ultimately however, the Dwarves cannot obtain one of the Dwarven Rings - simply because if they get it then the Mouth of Sauron has nothing to tempt them with in LOTR. However, the ring could either be a red herring and/or it is a Lesser Ring.

Make sure to read the Other Minds / Hands article about the Rings of Power, it is really important. It is a bit of a tough read at the start, but after the 2nd page it gets easier.

What about the heroes listen to a tale about Durin the Deathless, and how a legend tells about how Durin the Deathless body lay sleeping under Mount Gundbad. It is said that the stone/clay mold he was sleeping in is still there and would be a huge artifact, maybe the biggest (as it has been touched by Aüle the smith).


...just a thought.

Hmm... what about it IS a ring or power they are sent for but the forces of darkness get there first and whisk it away.

The ring could be one of the rings the Mouth of Sauron offers to the dwarves.

I'm aware that going to Dain's Halls is a very bold adventure idea that's why it has to be a solid hook to entice them. Just to note I'm not thinking to send the heroes on such an audacious endeavor until they have some experience under their belts.

Good point Garn about Dain II not being as typically motivated by treasure as your average Dwarf.

You've got to image that some dwarf knows about the of the Halls. (minor quest there maybe).


Not sure if sending them to Mount Gundabad might be going a little too far Khamul. I always got the impression that Mt Gundabad was like the MAJOR stronghold of the Goblins of the Misty Mountains.

thanks for the input guys, nice to bounce ideas off people. I'll post some more thoughts when they occur.

To make access a bit easier (in case you don't know already). The OM article can be found in Other Minds, Issue 3. In Other Hands, Issue 23 there is an article named Dragons of the North which touches the subject as well. In addition, MERP's The Grey Mountains may be of value to you, though nowadays it is quite expensive to come by in 2nd hand sources...

Cheers
Tolwen

Poosticks7,
It is, of course, your campaign and you can do anything you want. I just thought I would point out some potential issues.

One thing to be very careful of, is to avoid revealing that the Necromancer is Sauron. To me, playing with the Rings of Power (Greater or Lesser), is likely to reveal this because almost all of the Rings are in Sauron's possession. Tolkien's timeline for the Third Age (LOTR, Appendix A) specifically states Sauron does not declare his return to Middle-earth until 2951. The Necromancer is considered to be a new leader for the evil creatures scattered about; not the return of Sauron, at least not yet. So as an LM you have to avoid using them interchangeably, thereby providing proof to the characters that they are one and the same person. (I realize that many players are going to know this, but so long as their characters never learn of this, you're fine.)


Khamul,
Interesting idea. Dwarves do revere the as it is supposed to be Durin I's awakening . But I have to agree that it is a major orc stronghold which a party of characters alone cannot hope to retake. More importantly I believe during the War of the Ring, Orcs attack Lothlorien from Mount Gundabad.

So changes to the orc stronghold have to be fairly minimal or they disrupt the timeline. Well, assuming you want to keep to the timeline in your campaign.


Tolwen,
Thanks for providing the magazine links.

Thanks Tolwen I'll give them a read.

I take it that you mean the Halls of Dáin I?

The reduction of the number of Orcs following the Bot5A might be the inspiriation for forming the expedition, while your cold-drake might be the very one who slew the first Dáin in TA 2589. It's possible that Dáin's symbol of office was some mighty, spell-wrought weapon--probably a hammer, axe or two-handed mattock. Maybe the goal is to reclaim Dáin's lost crown, which may have magical properties of its own (enhancing wisdom? Influencing others?).

- In addition to goblins and wolves, I would expect possible Troll encounters along the way.

- Perhaps a ravine can only be crossed with the assistance of a potentially friendly stone-giant.

- Flocks of crebain may be spying for the drake or for local Orcs and may need to be avoided.

- There is the possibility that one or more members of the party could fall to dragon-sickness.

Yes, sorry should have made it clear I meant Dain I. I was indeed referring to his Halls.

Yes I was considering some king of artifact (on a similar line to the Arkenstone) Maybe a crown could work.

Thanks Otaku-sempai.

I particularly like the friendly stone-giant idea.

Wow, some great ideas there, ta folks!
That said.... I suspect that just maybe crowns & other royal regalia are a tad 'well-used' as quest objectives (unless your players are new to the hobby - in which case I say go for it!). I'm also uber-shy of injecting Rings of Power directly into my plotlines.
I pondered what other objects may warrant a risky retrieval mission to a legendary ancient dwarven hall inhabited by a Drake - a quest that both Player-Heroes and Dain II would consider worthy. Here's what I came up with off the cuff (and taking inspiration from a number of you):

1) A large enruned stone (obelisk? menhir?) which dwarven sages suspect may have been carved by Durin (himself!) with some knowledge or decree sacred to his folk ( of a mithril vein/ a meteorite sent by Aule/ a mighty relic or Dwarven site sealed by Durin and awaiting rediscovery);
or
2) The anvil of Dain I's royal smithy reputed to enhance the quality and cultural significance of items worked upon it. (It possibly also improves the efficiency of the smithy/holding of which it is the heart);
or
3) 'Durin's Stone' .... a carven stone anvil combining elements of both the above ideas (I like this option!)

What event first spurs DainII & the Heroes to investigate the whereabouts of Durin's Stone?
Perhaps some ancient scrap of knowledge was retrieved on an earlier adventure, or the king's Royal Sage found clues, or DainII had a dream-vision or cryptic info from an allied crow.
The Heroes may also encounter the sole survivor of a band of furrier-trappers - massacred by something BIG & loud whilst exploring a cavern for shelter from a tempest (or Giants!) in the Grey Mtns. The exhausted traumatised survivor, having made a Dwarven find in the cavern (coin? weapon shard? helmet?), luckily escaped as he was setting traps a distance away (still heard the horror though!)
(I think I'll locate the ruined hall at the mountain in the crux of the 2 arms of the Grey Mtns - looking south across the Narrows, and east towards the Withered Heath).

As the Stone simply couldn't be stowed in a sack or on pony, I'm thinking mission objective is to locate & confirm its existence; get lay of the land & map it with a view to future retrieval mission; neutralise any obstacles (if possible!), survive & return to Erebor with amazing news.

This would be one TOUGH adventure, especially if there really is a Cold Drake lairing in DainI's hall. Is it one & the same Cold Drake that slew DainI? If so, whoa! That's one powerful OLD dragon! Is it indeed a Drake - but not of the Cold variety? (That may throw the heroes a curveball!)

The Heroes may fulfill the recon mission without necessarily taking on the Drake (unless you want them too). If successful they can provide of the Dwarven complex, map & description of obstacles to be expected by a future mission. The Heroes may have glimpsed (even inspected) Durin's Stone to confirm its existence.

The follow-up retrieval mission may include the Heroes (they deserve the honour), though a team of Dwarven engineers would likely be required to enable the removal & transportation of the Stone. A small army of soldiers may also be required if the Drake is an issue.

Alternative retrieval plans:
1) the Heroes did encounter a stone- or mountain- Giant, rescuing him/her or spouse/child from the Drake's lair. If the Heroes return on retrieval mission the Giant is able to assist with transportation of the Stone to a safer site (the avenging Giant could assist the Heroes in the Drake battle if Loremaster desires);
or
2) some other mission has provided the Heroes with a wondrous item that allows a large/heavy object to be transported for a short time. (Perhaps it is a magical oil applied that shrinks &/or lightens an object) .... single use, or a defined total amount of time it works before expiry???

OK, that's it.... I'm all thunk out for now. Hope my brain-purge helps in some way.
Methinks I'll develop this further for my own Wilderland saga, and I'm keen to hear how your adventure goes.
Cheers all!

Some great ideas there CheeseWyrm, thanks for sharing.

I think your right about the crown idea (it is slightly over-used to use royal regalia as quest items).

I'm still toying with the idea of using a possible rumour/ old tale of a ring of power being the bait and then either: the tale was false or the ring has already been nabbed by the Shadow forces.

Then maybe they discover something wonderful whllst at the hall (maybe one of your ideas ).

Maybe the Drake is a CheeseWyrm

Anyway, I'm glad people are getting ideas off my initial mussings.

Arrgh, these are the worst!

The only thing worst than having your character turned to hamburger is to have your character turned into a cheeseburger!

Cheesewyrm,
Just some commentary on your ideas. As always, use whatever best meets the needs of your campaign and the story that you wish to tell.

The Obelisk is a nice touch; you might want to use it as a marker along the route the party will have to travel to find Dain's Halls.

Anvil/Durin's Stone, depending on the strength of it's powers, this could prove awkward. If recovered the dwarves would have years to craft magical items which might interfere with the War of the Ring in Wilderland. On the other hand, we don't know that it didn't make the dwarven victories possible. But I suggest metal, rather than stone, preferably an unknown alloy that resists decay and the passage of time, otherwise it might have crumbled by the beginning of the TOR timeline.

The trappers and clue need additional consideration. As written they are too vague. Here is a suggested expansion of your work.

Maybe what the trappers found was the burial site of one of Dain I's trusted friends? A dwarf who was injured heroically and told Dain something like, "I have been killed here, bury me here." Dain agreed and the friend was temporarily buried, after a new settlement was begun, Dain returned and gave the remains a more dignified resting place - inside the cave.

This friend was well known for <something>. A particular item (weapon, armor, etc) that is engraved with a name, has a unique silhouette, design or motif, or perhaps the friend had a personal mark / signature. At any rate, the clue is (or is related to) this well known thing - whatever it is. Since no other dwarf dared to use this thing out of respect for the departed... it can only be Dain I's friend.

Using this idea, in conjunction with your trappers & escapee, things hang together better. More so if the trappers are humans; they would have no way to recognize the Friend's motif and thus no reason to lie about it.

Drake: It could still be alive depending on the life expectancy of a dragon in Middle-earth. We don't know the dragons age at the time it attacked, but an additional 357 years have passed since the sacking of Dain I's Halls and the beginning of the TOR Timeline.

As for retrieval, like it or not, Erebor would want to have all of the party members present to maximize their chances of finding the tomb. Each party member might remember unique details. Party members cannot be asked questions if they are not present. After the tomb's contents are secured, the parties inclusion depends on how they have handled themselves and Erebor's perception of their trustworthiness.

I like the anvil idea; it's just so Dwarven! The object could stil be a preternaturally hard iron anvil. It could also still be called Durin's Stone on account that it was produced from a meteoric rock.

Also, the idea of rescuing a Stone-giant's child and enlisting his aid to move the object is another great addition that I'd wished that I'd thought of.

Aye, the CheeseWyrm is a unique creature - slow to anger but sensitive to taunts such as "Gorgonzola-breath" and "Fondue-features". Nyuk-nyuk!

Awesome Garn, the constructive feedback is much appreciated.
As indicated - I was improvising ideas off the top of my head without parsing the plot logic. I am prone to do that when inspiration strikes suddenly (like when Poosticks7 and other erstwhile forum members share great plot ideas).

I like your development of the trapper/clue concept ... mine was a bit of a 'quick tack-on' idea meant as a suggestion for a way to point the heroes toward the adventure-locale.
I like the idea of the enruned obelisk - I'll call it the Rock of Svalin. It's a known way-marker, and Dwarves know it as the site of DainI's (?)uncle's heroic death. (As you suggest, Svalin's remains were later removed to DainI's royal tombs). The Rock has a puzzlingly cryptic message which includes geographical references that lead to Svalin's home hearth (DainI's Halls). This info could allow the Heroes' to minimise side-track encounters.
The trapper-survivor is not capable of relocating the cavern/Halls, and is not aware of any link with the Rock of Svalin (other than having passed it on trapping journeys). The retrieved item he used to confirm his tale has Svalin's unique markings on it. Perhaps it was an armour-boss? Arm bracer? Tankard? Dagger?
The trappers may have sought shelter in the cavern after escaping an attack by the Giant (searching for his kin).

OtakuS - I'm glad you like the Giant-kin rescue subplot.
And yes - my Durin's Stone (the anvil) will be of meteoric metal (a star-stone / a dwarf-star!).
One could argue that dwarves may not like meteoric ore, being as it's not from the ground and therefore not of Aule .... but if the discussion arises I'll have the star prophesied by Dwarven sages & fell from Aule-related constellation - perhaps 'Aule's Anvil' ('Sadan-Mahalu' Kh.)??

I concur Garn - LoreMasters should carefully consider the impact of any power they attribute to Durin's Stone. (I'll post my version when I do finally sit down to write the adventure).
The adventure now has a Rock and a Stone. I may encourage some mystery for the players with ambiguous references in earlier adventures to: Durin's rock, Durin's stone, Dain's Marker, Dain Stones, Dwarf Rock, etc etc you get the drift. The mixed references may provide some puzzlement prior to the reveal in this adventure.
Game on!

Cheesewyrm,
It's no trouble at all. Sometimes its fun to brainstorm just for the sake of creativity.

You mention the surviving trapper has passed the Rock of Svalin repeatedly. Any capable mountain man should be able to relocate such a distinct landmark. Thus he could guide an expedition to the general vicinity of the temporary burial cave (if he cannot locate it exactly). He would not know the importance or relevance of the Rock of Svalin, the temporary burial cave, or Dain I's Halls.

The item removed from the temporary burial cave could be any of those. I would probably go with the tankard or the armour-boss (I'm assuming its like a shield boss). Either one is likely to have had a coat of arms (or the dwarven equivalent) and could easily be overlooked. I kind of like the shield boss; the Uncle was mortally wounded, perhaps his shield was shattered and placed off to the side of the cave. Years later, when they return for the Uncle's body, no one pays attention to a small pile of wooden debris.

Tis the tale o' the longbeard Svalin
Ally to King Dain and his most trusted advisor
Buried once and then moved elsewhere
But none not there would ever be the wiser.

Fallen in battle while at Dain's side
It is oft believed he may have lived a bit longer
Had his axe been sharper or his ale darker
Or his now shattered shield been a tad bit stronger

Nice one Sir Kicley!
I'll regale my Heroes with that verse as they drink a dark Dwarven beer- 'Svalin's RockStout'.
Poor ol' Svalin!

Very nice. Quite wonderful, really.

Unfortunately Uncle Svalin didn't get killed, well, not exactly. At least, that is not what they call it when you do yourself in.

Dwarves are quite fond of diaries. Didn't know that? Well, they do keep them secret, but all the Dwarves have a diary tucked about their person somewhere. The pages can come in handy at the privy as well. They jot down all kinds of interesting and lurid details about their lives. Then when they get home they read them, remembering the past. That is how they've kept track of all those riches. It's a huge list of where they found some sparkly gem. How much Gloin borrowed to buy a round of drinks. Where exactly they stashed the troll horde. That kind of thing. Anyway...

So, there is Uncle Svalin, mean and bitter cause he, like every other dwarf, has had to flee from Moria due to the combustible nature of Durin's Bane. As he sat muttering curses and imprecations and other words of undying hatred at the demon of shadowed flame, he busied himself by sharpening up his axe. Hour after hour the whetstone ground against the metal. Day after day. The sound of it getting higher and sharper as the whetstone continued to pass, until it was almost the high cry of a shrill bat.

Now, a Dwarf with a sharp axe is nothing new. Nor is it normally a problem. But old Uncle Svalin had never found for himself a bride and, in these dangerous times, he acquired quite a dangerous habit. Perhaps if things were not so dangerous he wouldn't... well... it might not have come to pass is all I'm saying.

See, Uncle Svalin slept with his axe close to hand. Like most dwarves do. Other dwarves, less enamored of their axes, do not snuggle up to their axes while asleep though. And in his nightly fidgetings, as he dreamt of cutting and hewing, slicing and hacking, splitting and scraping the shadowbeast, poor Uncle Svalin cuddled his axe too close by far.

In the morning Uncle Svalin awoke to the sound of laughter, unbridled gales of laughter. Mirth beyond any that he had ever heard in the entirety of his life. And as he wiped sleep encrusted eyes clear, he realized that the laughter was directed at himself. For the entire expedition was staring wide-eyed at him, laughing, slapping their knees and nearly falling down with unrestrained mirth.

"Wha--?" Svalin started to ask, sitting up.

He got no further. For in that moment the laughter doubled and everyone in sight fell to the floor, unable to keep their feet.

Even Dain, his own nephew, was laughing uproariously! Just as he started to get angry and tried to get to his feet, his hand automatically tightening on his axe, he felt it.

A cool breeze upon his shaven cheek!

He brought his axe up and stared in horror within it's mirror like gleam! It was gone! Every hair on one side of his face... beard, mustache and even his eyebrow! He screamed in horror, a cry so high and piercing that it was said every hound for 50 leagues cried in pain.

And he fled.

He left them all to their mirth and ran, and ran, and ran until he collapsed in a small dark cave, pulling a boulder down from the cliff's face to keep everyone at bay, as he died of shame...

Of course, Dain swore the entire expedition to secrecy, which they agreed to. After all, the line of Durin the Deathless of the clan of the Longbeards could never admit to such a horrible thing.

But Dain never thought any of them would write about it.

I could show you my family's copy, if you like?

Nyuk-nyuk!
Garn - your perambulations of imagination are much appreciated & to be applauded!
Keep it up
BTW- the dwarven black beer shall henceforth be called 'HalfBeard Stout' (with its own humurous backstory now).