A query to all you Tolkien loremasters out there - so, we know the primary cause (the murder of Thror) and that the war was mainly prosecuted beneath the Misty Mountains, resulting in the sack of every orc-hold from Gundabad south. The war then culminates with Azanulbizar, the death of Azog, and the defeat of the orcs in a pyrrhic victory for the Dwarves.

However, what else do we know? Do we know any of the orc-holds? Locations of underground battles? Any maps of these extensive underground tunnels?

Further, does the Professor give us any reason as to why these tunnels were not permanently garrisoned by any of the 7 clans? Was there no inherent strategic value to holding the Misty Mountains? No resources to be mined?

Thoughts?

AFAIK, there were no maps of the tunnels drawn, at least by JRRT. Game companies like ICE may have done so, however.

Did all the seven houses of the Dwarves participate in the war? I thought it was just the House of Durin. In any case, the Misty Mountains were still orc/goblin territory, not dwarf territory, and there were probably a bunch of dwellings full of orcs. The Dwarves wouldn't have been able to hold on to any conquered territory for long.

Tkdco2's right about the lack of modules.

In addition, MERP's Moria briefly touches on the Under-deeps, which offers some possiblities for expansion into the rest of the mountains.

Following Azanulbizar, the other Dwarven houses returned to their respective realms. Read that entry in Appendix A again - the great line about "Even with only one eye you should see more clearly." Good stuff.

In summary, they replied (to the possiblity of occupying Moria) about revenge and having accomplished their payback; it was time to go home. Durin's kindred could not progress (in Moria) because of the Balrog, who lurked within the shadows of the door (a chilling image). We don't know about why they failed to reclaim the other holds within the mountains, which is frustrating.

One option concerns attrition - the prof indicated that while they defeated the Orcs, they lost so many Dwarves (only a third survived or still stood unmaimed) that they couldn't.

If you can find a copy of the History of Middle-earth V. 12, Tolkien wrote about the other Dwarven houses - naming them & describing their homelands.

That's also the interpretation brought forward in OM4, where this subject is also touched.

Cheers
Tolwen

Speaking of OM Tolwen, when can we expect the latest issue?
(Apologies for slight thread stealage. It's temporary, honest)

Umm. I think that would be mostly down to the Assistant Editor pulling his finger out and finishing proofing the big long submission he'd stalled on when he switched from being a player to running his own TOR game. And that would be me. Apologies for the radio silence, and due assurances that I'm now cracking on again!

We now return you to your original programme.

Evocatus,
We know "Thráin at once sent messengers bearing the tale, north, east and west; but it was three years before the Dwarves had mustered their strength. Durin’s Folk gathered all their host, and they were joined by great forces sent from the Houses of other Fathers..."
No 'great force' could have been sent by the two Houses originally of the Ered Luin who had dwelt alongside Durin's Folk since the First Age but without ever again becoming numerous. So that leaves the other four...
I've always interpreted it that all the Houses took part -- in whatever strength they could manage. But looking at it again now, that would surely have meant the wording should have gone: "the Houses of the other Fathers". Maybe one or both of the two easternmost Houses in fact failed to send...

But the fact that we know almost nothing else about the War is largely 'justified' by a statement somewhere that it was all tunnel-fighting, fought underground and in the dark. I'm afraid the details are going to have to be supplied by "other hands and minds" on their (our!) own initiative with very little steer to be had from the Middle-earth sources.

Cheers,
--Os.

Yes, kind of what I thought but did want to put it out there to the larger community since there are certainly holes in my lore knowledge - I've never read A History of Middle-earth, for example.

It's too bad, I'm a huge Dwarf fan and have always been disappointed that they get such little expanded treatment. Appendix A.III, "Durin's Folk," is some of my favorite reading. There is literally so much history to be explored and we get practically nothing in comparison to what is told about the Elves (I mean, c'mon Dain II Ironfoot, a fairly major player in the backstory but, what do really know about him?).

I think the War of the Dwarves and Orcs is such a rich scenario to be, ahem, mined (especially since we have practically nothing in canon). And, given the level of animosity involved (I believe the line goes: "Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark and by light."), it makes for a grim and gritty setting with plenty of tactical combat encounters with great potential for army level engagements.

Ta very much Osric

That's good to hear - and the editor is eagerly waiting for it

Cheers
Tolwen

@Tolwen - I've finished most of the OM4 article, "A Brief History of the Dwarven Mansions," and have found it truly fascinating.

The point regarding placement of their homelands as a "picket-line," deliberately chosen by Aule as a bulwark against the designs of Morgoth is a perfectly sublime observation. Especially if you consider that the Dwarves were an analogue of Norse culture.

Taking the point further, if you take the Seven Houses and think of them in, more or less, a line in real-world terms, you can easily posit Iceland, Norway/Sweden, Normandy, Denmark, and Kievan Rus for 5 of them (perhaps drop the Rus for a separate Norway and Sweden but, I have to believe Kiev would be in the mix - it was absolutely a Norse colony and fits the description of being far to the East).

This then brings up an interesting question about the lost Nogrod and Belegost in Beleriand. If allowed to speculate (and I'll be the first to admit that is about all I'm doing here), I think you could make a strong case for Greenland/Vinland and the kingdoms of the Norse-Gaels, both of which were colonized and later lost. That leaves the Norse Danelaw to be covered, which fits rather nicely into Gimli's colony at Aglarond (I believe you'll all agree this has a nice congruence to Dwarven-Rohirrim and Norse-Anglo Saxon amity).

Clearly, I realize I shouldn't try and stretch the analogy too far (especially since, I believe, the Professor was not a fan) but, in reading the article, it all seemed to fall into place for me.

@Osric - "other hands and minds," I see what you did there!

Evocatus,

You write:

"That leaves the Norse Danelaw to be covered, which fits rather nicely into Gimli's colony at Aglarond (I believe you'll all agree this has a nice congruence to Dwarven-Rohirrim and Norse-Anglo Saxon amity)."

I agree! BTW, I also enjoy reading about Durin's Folk & it's one of my fav appendices.

You have some great ideas about the locales of the Dwarven houses. This is just a game & doesn't have to be exact, however, I just want to add that the prof once wrote a fan & told her that Hobbiton lay at about the lat & long of Oxford, England.

Your point about the Danelaw may thus place the Aglarond a bit further north than he envisioned, though of course, it's your call in your game

I'm flattered that you liked it

I'd be careful with simple analogies though. It's true that Tolkien used real-world models and inspirations (as we and game designers do), though he always avoided a simple equalization (e.g. Rohirrim aren't Anglo-Saxons). This is what we should do as well. But you already mentioned it that it should not be stretched too far.

For the in-world connections, the Norse-association (through names) is not original to the Dwarves (another thing to consider!). These Norse names are loanwords from the Second Age mannish culture that lived near the durinic Dwarves. As is customary for Dwarves (here: Durin's Folk), they adopted these given - outer - names and continued to use them throughout the Second and Third Ages.

So, taking the point literally, we can't deduct from the Norse names to a "Norse" dwarven (durinic) culture/association, since these names are from a Second Age mannish Northmen culture
We can only draw a safe conclusion that this ancient mannish culture could have had Norse elements...

And concerning the article: Please note that OM5 had some fixes in it, so don't miss these (it's not much compared to the original piece).

Cheers
Tolwen

@Mim - Agreed, Appendix A, "Durin's Folk," is awesome - I could read tomes of that stuff.

WRT Aglarond, definitely understand about the "real" placement (as well as Tolwen's later comments regarding analogies), but it was interesting to me how it all sort of snapped into focus after reading the OM article. Clearly, Tolkien may never have had any of that in mind, however, I find it an intriguing thought exercise to consider in the sphere of world building.

@Tolwen - building on my point above, I will admit that I'm bringing my own slant to the placement of the Dwarven 7 Houses since I'm tinkering with a TOR system hack and toying with an alt-historical setting. Your article gave me ample food for thought with regard to the shape and placement of Dwarven kingdoms.

I certainly do realize that it would be a mistake to draw simple analogies (Dwarves = Norsemen, Rohirrim = Anglo-Saxons) since I know Tolkien specifically warned against such a reading. In addition, it's clear Dwarves have a strong Jewish theme, and I haven't failed to notice the absence of all sea-faring cultural elements. For that matter, I think it would be fair to say that most cultures of the North share trappings of Norse culture, among others (Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, etc.).

WRT the Norse Dwarven naming conventions, ha, I have read that, and it never fails to amuse. I've never understood Tolkien's perceived need to actually ground Middle-Earth in real world history and his argument for those types of abstractions seems, to me, to be going out of his way to explain things that just don't necessarily need it. I mean, I don't really need an explanation as to why many names from the "Dvergatal" show up in the family histories of the Longbeards. I actually find it an innovative use of the familiar to deftly craft a "new fairy story."

Honestly, my real wish is that he had devoted more time to fleshing out more of the history of the Dwarves, their culture and language, than trying to answer these sorts of perceived immersive questions. But, then again, I do realize what the Professor's day-job was!

If the article gave you inspiration and you actually use some of it for your own Middle-earth, then it has fully achieved its purpose. It was designed as a base to show a likely presentation of the matter based on the maximum Tolkien (and not RPG canon) research available. After that, it's everyone's own how to use and adapt it.

Cheers
Tolwen