There have been a few attempts here to create a "new" magic system for TOR, many based in whole or part upon Decipher's LoTR game. What I wanted for my campaign was to port some specific spells and (from Paths of the Wise) herbs across without having my players feel like I'd just rewritten the core rules (i.e. I wanted to slot these new spells and herbs into the existing rules, or at the least mimic the existing rules).

Here is my first draft. While I can't post all the spells and herbs from Decipher's products, those who are interested can find all the spells from the LoTR Core Book here as a useful set of spell cards.

Interesting :-)
Have you already assigned one of the 8 "lore spell groups" to the various spells?

Only for the spells (Beast-lore and Leechcraft) I need right now. Assigning spells to groups is very subjective especially with regards to overlap (e.g. some of the Beast-lore spells probably also belong under Eleven-lore) ... and I'm not sure I want to port all spells across anyway as I want the spells to have a more subtle and indirect feel to them (e.g. the idea of a non-Istari hero casting Flame of Anor in TOR doesn't seem right to me).

You summed up perfectly why I have little interest in seeing many PCs slinging around "magic" in TOR. The Wizards are unique beings in Tolkien's world, and, really, even Gandalf doesn't do a whole lot of "spellcasting," certainly not in the DnD style. He's not magic missiling his way through every encounter. As you said, in TOR, magic must be subtle.

Awwwww! How else am I supposed to import a few worms from Dune to deal with all those nasty spiders over there in that Mirkwood Forest?

Despite the tongue in cheek humor above, I do like a more magically advanced environment. Magic in Middle-earth is difficult because it is a High Magic setting, but limits access to such magic and imposes serious penalties for its use. These mechanics are not conducive to magic using characters.

The Decipher forums had many interesting debates and discussions concerning magic and magic users in Middle Earth. Arguments both for and against non-Istari wizards and the like. I think that most magic in Middle Earth is a lot more like the magic of folklore and mythology than the magic of RPGs. Examples of magic include. The moon letters on Thror's map, the spells hiding the door on the Lonely Mountain and the Gates of Moria, and the "spells of. Concealment" that the Dwarves placed over the Troll's treasure in the Hobbit.

Also enchanted blades and such. And the Palntiri

Most of the rest of he magic we see is performed by Ring wearers having one of the. great Rings of Power, so we do not know if it is their magic alone, or part of the power of the Rings.

Ashley,

This is just what I was trying to do! - see the link in my signature to Part One of my attempt (also a first draft), although I basically am converting each spell as I go (which is why it is taking a long time to complete Part Two, although it will be ready soon). I will go away and read yours and give you back some feedback, although I should warn you that myself (and others) have no problem with Flame of Anor being used by a non-Istari (to use an example) - the underlying rule I give to my players is:

does it make sense for this to happen? does it 'feel' right?

I guess this example shows that my view of what magic can be done in Middle-earth differs from yours etc.

I would still like your feedback, though on 'my version' - perhaps we can 'combine our efforts'?

Robin S.

There's no right or wrong. Use what works for your gaming group and if you're having fun that's all that matters. Some folks will not play a game set in ME that has fireball (or equivalent) as a spell, others will not play in ME unless it does have fireballs.
This distinction, high-magic or low-magic, will drive the design of any magic system add-on.

I think we have different design goals in mind, but that doesn't prevent borrowing of ideas. Diversity is a good thing.
As an example, I've been having a rethink about "spells" in TOR after reading Throrsgold's write-up of Elladan and Elrohir - one of their traits was:

which got me thinking (again) about representing spells as special abilities much like those of adversaries (which are comprehensive yet only take up three pages) ... perhaps powered by Hope or Wisdom points instead of Hate points. Anyway, I'm aiming for a magic system that is as simple and objective (in the sense that the cost and effect are well-defined) as special abilities and the combat system in general.

TOR's official magic system, whenever it gets one, will need to be capable of scaling upward in a fun and balanced manner. It should be designed as a low magic system that can be ratcheted up to a medium and high magic system with few changes in impact. This way players can have as much or as little magic as they want without having to redesign the system.

I recognize that what I'm asking for is impossible, but at least the TOR designers have a clear place from which to start!


Special Abilities, to me, represent innate things that a creature can perform due to their nature / DNA . While they might need training to perfect, the initial ability exists as a function of what they are, not what they have learned.

Spells are a form of learned technique - knowledge and movement - that may be studied by anyone, or limited to someone who has magical aptitude, but otherwise provides no inherent benefit to manipulating magical forces. These magicians have to study in order to be able to cast spells.

It has one. Total of 7 spells & several similar effects as well, so far. 3 for elves, 3 for dwarves, one for woodmen. You'll find it buried in the Virtues chapter.

Each is an enabling virtue, and a series of individual effects purchased with experience points, 1 of which is free with the virtue.

• Wood Elf Magic
  • Stinging Arrow (Auto w/Virtue)
  • Elf Lights (1 EP)
  • Enchanted Sleep (1 EP, Req.: Elf Lights)
• Broken Spells (Pick one for free)
  • Spells of Opening and Shutting (1 EP)
  • Spells of Prohibition and Exclusion (1 EP)
  • Spells of Secrecy (1 EP)
• Hound of Mirkwood
  • Take Blow for you (Free w/Virtue)
  • Support Awe (1 EP)
  • Support Awareness (1 EP)
  • Support Explore (1 EP)
  • Support Hunting (1 EP)
  • Harass Enemy (2 EP)
  • Protect (1 EP)
• Staunching Song (No subspells, but I could see it being expanded with more)

It's a system. And a flexible one at that. Create a particular list of spells, and a virtue to go with it...

As for the "mighty magics" of middle earth... There's an old essay, entitled "Gandalf was a Fifth Level Wizard"... In D&D terms, Gandalf never exhibits more spells than a 5th level D&D wizard might know. In 3E terms, he'd be a 5th level Sorcerer, instead, since he carries no books, but still, the point is the same: "Mighty Magic" on Middle Earth is all stuff that typical D&D spellcasters can do at low-mid levels. (Edit: that Essay is in Dragon issue #5, page 27, March 1977, for the curious)

Aramis,
I'm sure, as always, you are absolutely correct.

To further your point I'd also add the following 'magical' abilities, even if they're not 'spells' per se.

• Woeful Foresight
• Brothers to Bears
• Night-goer
• Ravens of the Mountain
• Elvish Dreams
• The Speakers
• Art of Disappearing
• Herbal Remedies

... which is starting to convince me that the designers got it right and that attempts at creating a 'magic-system' for TOR are probably 1) not needed, and 2) doomed to failure anyway.

What I can see working are things like JamesRBrown's virtue additions (see the Beorn's Enchantment topic and the proposed Animal Friend virtue) ... if they are tied back to a specific quote or scene from the books and can be scoped to avoid abuse.

I think there should only be more additional effects tied to virtues that can be bought with experience.
You can call those effects "spells" or whatever you want :-)

I'll second this.
A character can only have 5 virtues in his whole career: it's a shame, since they are very colorful. I would be an happy player/loremaster if more virtues were "expandable" through xp like Hound of Mirkwood or Wood-elf magic.

I agree, wholeheartedly.

But, I'll note that there is little reason one can't simply ignore the virtue 6 cap. Perhaps change the formula at that point, but the system shouldn't break at Wisdom 7 or even 8, save for fear tests.

And Wisdom-based encounters and certain virtues (e.g. Twice-baked Honey Cakes).

I'll let character grow Wisdom and Valor above 6, but ONLY for Virtues and Rewards (and maybe for and extra +1 per point above 6 to the total of Wisdom and Valor rolls).

Let's hope and wait upon expanded rules that take us above the current Wisdom and Valor scores!

Regards,
E

Ashley, my comments on your "Magic Expanded".pdf:

1. Use of Heart as a conversion from Bearing - I used 'Awe' as I felt that was closer to the concept of 'Bearing' in TOR, and this also makes Body a bit more important - Heart is already too powerful in the game for many reasons (see other threads on this)

2. Grouping spells as a branch of lore, under eight lore-based traits. I really like this concept of yours for much magic (eg. Leechcraft is an obvious trait for Healing & similar magic), however, I can also see some problems with this with some spells (OK who knows water magics, for example). My way around this was to declare that magic should be treated like cultural virtues for most races/cultures, then it is just a matter of declaring what virtues are requisites (such as Broken Spells etc.), whereas a 'spell' is something learned and used by actual practitioners of magic, that are called Dwimmercrafters (this was also to incorporate Robert Cooper's ideas too).

3. I concur that casting a 'spell' by gestures, incantations, runes or song is very tiring and that they cost Endurance to cast, but what is the 'Weariness TN' rolled against? In my rules I use 'Fatigue/Skill TN', where the TN is the same but Fatigue tests are treated as per in the normal rules (using Travel) and are rolled after the spell has been cast, whereas Skill TN is only if the PC decides to roll to cast the spell to try and get a Great or Extraordinary Success (I feel this is important that spells are treated as per Trait rules)

4. I am in favour of Sorcery spells costing Shadow rather than Endurance to cast, but in my view the Weariness TN should be scrapped or reduced since they are much less tiring to cast! (use Mordo not one's own energy)

5. Herb -lore rules are good, although what about Craft to prepare them rather than Lore? (perhaps give character the option for either)

Robin S.
Still working on my grimoire - sorry for the delay!!

I would not like to see an expansion that makes magic use more common in TOR. As has been said by another poster, most magic in LotR is wielded by beings who are themselves somewhat supernatural. Player characters who are Elves or Dwarves might have some culture-specific "spells" - such as the ability to create magical swords or carve magic runes - but humans in general should have no magical ability in my opinion. The whole idea of the rise of Men and of the Elves leaving Middle Earth to sail into the West to my mind is Tolkien's portrayal of magic in Middle Earth being on the way out - and Men being the chief cause.