Has C7 said anything about if and when rules for magic use will be done for this game? On that topic has C7 given any indication of what the other two sets will provide in terms of rules?

To all appearances magic will not be covered in the same way as games like Dnd. Elves and Dwarves may both take cultural virtues which allow them to use some small amount of magic but, given the setting, I do not believe that wizards will be a playable calling.

E

This in my opinion is excellent. I loved the older MERPs and CODA games, but it always rubbed me wrong that you could play a wizard or magician of any kind. In the Third Age there were only five Wizards (we only know the names of three) and they were not human. All other magic was inherent into a folk, but was not learned. I think TOR represents this well.

I am not talking about hero wizards running around like D&D. I am thinking more about magic in general. The TOR book mentions something about great orc chieftains that use magic and many elves definitely used magic. It would be nice to have some rules about such uses.

Um...there are rules. The Elves of Mirkwood have their own magics, and the Enemy has the Deadly Spells power, which is enlessly adaptable...but if you want spell lists and such, I certainly hope we never see them...

I see some monster powers that could be described as magical and the shadow effects are magical in nature. I diddn't see anything in the elves section and I don't see this deadly spells power you mention (I did a keyword search of both pdf documents).

However, I am thinking more of general rules than specific "this is magical" type things.

Check out Wood-elf Magic (AB 130) and (I'm sorry for my mistake) Dreadful Spells (LM 66).

There is all the magic in these books that needs to be there IMHO, but whatever floats your boat.

Dwarves have spells as virtue (Adventurers Book p127)

Elves have spells as a virtue (Adventurers Book p130)

Dreadful Spells (Loremaster Book p66) are mentioned. Great Spiders have a spell (p77)

Middle Earth is a low magic setting, so magic should be low key.

Thanks for the references. I hadn't really looked at the virtues yet (and I did miss eldath's references to virtues -- my mistake). This is closer to what I was looking for and a good way to implement magic IMO.

I do find it interesting that simply asking about magic makes others automatically assume that I want D&D type magic in this game, which I don't.

This may have been your issue. To most Tolkien rpg fans, there should be no such thing as general magic, like lists of spells or effects, but rather specific instances of magic which brings more wonder and mystery to the world...

By sheer coincidence, Pendragon is the other game that is most notable for its position that there's lots of magic in the tales and adventures, but you kniggets aren't going to be doing it, so you don't need to worry your pretty helmeted heads about the details.

That approach is totally applicable to Middle-earth as well.

There's plenty of discussion 'out there' on what can and can't be done by the Wise and the Dark Powers so an LM wanting to have a plot in which the workings of 'magic' are important can certainly do so.
But I'm looking forward to more on how to do it the TOR way, in future publications.

Cheers,
--Os.

While that is true in the main, I think the 4th edition actually had rules for creating and playing wiz characters? I only have the 3rd edition, so I can't say how it works exactly, or whether the newest 5.0 and 5.1 include those rules.

But I agree with the sentiment that the players should not be the workers of magic, even if magic plays a major role in the game.

I would like to see some magic being wielded by the heroes. I do like doing it through virtues and I can see adding more magical virtues going forward.

Personally I want a ME RPG to be grounded firmly in Tolkien's work but not limited by it. I think the MERP game had too much magic for a 3rd age ME game (as would a D&D game). I don't know much about Decipher's game to make a determination about them but I believe they did allow PC magic users.

I was a little suprised as well to find magic as sparse as it is in the setting. Granted, after twenty years of MERP and CODA, I got a little used to seeing magic as something that was accessible to players.
Even one of my players commented on that fact. They loved the system, but were a little disappointed in the lack of even a "subtle" magic system.
That being said, we're working on a homebrew system that mirrors TORs mechanic and we'll see how it comes together.

To give an example, we've decided that since the Three Elven rings represented a specific element, Nenya (water), Narya (fire), and Yilya(air) , and that there were three attributes, Body, Heart, and Wits... we would start from there.

Body = Water
Heart = Fire
Wits = Air

Six "spells" per attribute, with six Groups that we're calling realms.
The three "Offensive" Spells will be grouped much like weapons skills.

We'll see how it goes. It might be just be an exercise in game design, but its still fun...

Actually we know all of their names: the two last wizards (the blue wizards) were called Alatar and Pallando.

Since they have traveled to the far east, little is known of them.

I think that those names were given to them by ICE in MERP, no? According to Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle Earth:

Actually those names are straight from the professor himself. He named the other two in his notes. I think they are named in "The History of Middle Earth" book series.

You learn something new every day

Right, I think Tolkein even said within the same breath (or paragraph since I think it was a letter he sent to a friend) that the Blue Wizards probably fell to corruption, but that it didn't really matter cuz they weren't part of his story.

This does bring me to the fact that nearly all of the non-Istari magic users we see in the third age are among the forces of Sauron, chiefly the Witch-king and the Mouth of Sauron. I think magic, even for the Istari, is a highly corruptible force. Not to mention the fact that magic was also almost indistinguishable from a random occurrence of natural events. I think the bottom line is: PCs don't get access to Magic, since it's mostly a narrative power (the storms of the Witch-King and Saruman, the unnaturally long life of the Mouth of Sauron, and the light, dawn, and fire summoned by Gandalf).

Alatar and Pallando are named in the essay 'The Istari' in Unfinished Tales.
Alatar is of the following of Oromë, whilst the affiliation of Pallando is less clear. Taken along by Alatar as his friend, he was given there as a follower of Oromë, but in drafts or something had been associated with Mandos and Nienna -- and JRRT never finalised anything for publication so it's all guesswork.

Then in Peoples of Middle-earth we get a different take, names that were more obviously titles (like Gandalf's many names in different lands?), and presumably don't totally contradict "Alatar" and "Pallando".

The debate about the existence of magicians other than the Istari -- or especially about mannish magicians -- has been had out at great length in many places... The evidence is inconclusive enough that everyone can find enough to justify the position they favour, without anyone being confirmed right or wrong.
But can anyone put their finger on an article or essay that pulls all arguments on both sides together into one place?

Personally I'm for it, for one PC per campaign, and with the knowledge that finding teachers, resources and materials etc. could be terminally difficult. (Ironically TOR's Fellowship Phases, access to the Wise in 'Sanctuaries' etc., would allow this more readily than other games that reckon to be grittier and yet more magic-rich at the same time.)

I do like like the dwarvish and elvish spells. But I have a sneaking suspicion that those long-lived guys are going to have to have more options developable if we're going to keep them engaged throughout their careers from here to the WR...

Cheers,
--Os.

I think the same, man.

Rules for epic level thousand years old elves, please!

How are we supposed to portray an elf like Celeborn with the current rules ???
(sorry if I'm being an ass)

Hmm, I suppose if you really want to portray an elf that sits in his home and wanders out once in a millennium to lay waste to a shadow stronghold before eventually receding into the west, I think I'd allow that in my game. You might be very bored at the table though, seeing as we're dealing with days and not millennia.

I guarantee not even a ring wraith would mess with you though, lest you summon your water horses against him for daring to cross your stream.

It wasn't Celeborn who did it, it was Elrond who raised the level of the Bruinen and Gandalf shaped the water horses

Oh, I know, I was wrapping up all those monolithic elves into one character...

Behold the abomination, Elglorfinborn!

I dunno about "offensive spells", seems a but dubious, but the rest is awesome especially the link between the Ring of Fire, Narya and heart.

It seems to me the recovery of Theoden from Wormtongue/Saruman was a greater bit of 'magic' than throwing a few flaming pine-cones. I could see the ring helping in that regard.

Its funny you mention the pine cones, but that is the only truly dramatic "offensive" spell we have written down as a possible choice so far. Lightning was a little too much, as we wanted to maintain a truly subtle feel. And throughout all the books, Gandalf only did it once...

Edit: Yes, Gandalf only threw the pine cones once as well, but that scene is one of the most memorable (for me anyway) in the Hobbit.

I've settled on the six "Realms" or groups. They are Inspiring, Comforting, Knowing, Manipulating, Altering, and Healing.

I'm still trying to get a feel for how subtle I want the spells (I want them all to evoke some memory from the books), but one spell I'm particularly fond of is:

Orome's Call (Air, Inspiring)
"When cast, all of your immediate surroundings (Trees, rocks, streams) echo in muffled memory the hunting call of Orome, the great hunter of the Valar. All creatures in service of the shadow cower in its memory."
This spell may only be cast outside.
Still working on the effect. My plan is that no spell will be "WINNING", simply something that can benefit others or hinder the Enemy.

Another example is the comforting spell group. Kindle Fire (Fire), Create Light (Air), and Purify (Water). Simple, yet they can be of great assistance in times of need.

Also at that point Gandalf was the White, and had taken over the mantle of the Head of the Istari. Unweaving Saruman's spell would have possibly been beyond his power when Saruman was the White and Gandalf the Grey, even with Narya. Hard to say, but the awakening of Theoden certainly seems to be the type of magic Gandalf most demonstrated, and Narya's power certainly was of that type as well.

I would argue that the subtle magic is everywhere in the game. One of my favorite bits of the rules is the Rewards section. You might argue that these items are magical or mundane and never really know the truth. That fits Tolkien to a "T". The items have different "qualities"; just like Anduril in LOTR you don't get a blatant description of the item as being magical/non-magical. Personally I don't want to know if something is magical. Conceiving of something as being magical in nature was really only something that hobbits did; ask a hobbit what the elves wear and they might say "magic cloaks", but an elf would just say "I'm wearing a cloak fashioned from the leaves of a willow tree by the Silverlode". 'Magic' as a concept apart from any other aspect of the world didn't make much sense to them.

You could also say that Virtues are a form of magic, as are some Traits. I wish Francesco had retained his Virtue of the Firstborn (or whatever it was called). It really nailed the subtle magic of ME.

Greetings

We know that Pippin and Merry's blades were 'magical' both from the aftermath of the fight with the Witch King and - which I'd missed until yesterday, a comment by Aragorn after Boromir is killed - "Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them [Merry and Pippin], but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about by spells for the bane of Mordor."

Regards

Edward