I found this out on the web and thought I'd share:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Map%20of%20Moria.jpg

I've cleaned the jpg file up a bit as there was text relating to the films and book (in addition to the whitened bits of the map that shows the route that the Fellowship took), but I thought it would make a nice prop. Here's what I did with it:



... I printed it out in quarters on A4 sheets then stuck each part together, coloured in the whitened route to 'hide' it, and then 'aged' the edges of it. Pretty happy with the results!

Rich, you're the man! This is awesome!

Many thanks indeed or sharing.

As always, it's a pleasure.

Great find (and edits) Rich! Looks great - do you know to what it originally belongs? Perhaps LotR Online? AFAIK it is no official material from any Middle-earth RPG published so far.

It combines both scale and layout and you have to be aware that the chambers are not to scale but to show their relative position rather than their true sizes. IMO an excellent approach to deal with the problem of mapping the extensive city layout on a limited space (and include the Fellowship's route; the white path)

Cheers
Tolwen

It isn't LotR Online, I believe its a Daniel Reeve map:

http://www.wetacollectors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34648

http://cartographer.throne-worlds.com/?cat=3

... Not read the links, by the way.

That's I first thought as well due to the style, though I couldn't find it in my "Moria" box (from LotRRPG where Daniel made the maps for). Thus my question. Nor is it in any other of the LotRRPG supplements. But perhaps he made it after LotRRPG folded or for an unpublished supplement in that line.

Cheers
Tolwen

Yeah, possibly. Like you, I couldn't find it referenced in any published material but I do like it. I'm not normally a fan of Daniel Reeve's work, purely because his scales on his maps are often wrong - eg, the Shire distances in places are just not correct, but as pieces of 'art' they are nice so they do make great gaming props.

Not wanting to steal Rich's thunder in any way but a quick Google search led me to this link which seems fairly informative regarding the map's production.

Hope it's helpful.

You mean the same as one of the links I posted above?

Thanks for it - both Rich and Fictionaut. So it is indeed a LotR Online map (even if a hardcopy bonus). Good to see it

Cheers
Tolwen

Doh! No danger of any thunder being stolen there then!

I must have rolled an Eye of Mordor on my Awareness test!

I'll try and be more observant in future.

Slinks sheepishly away.

This map is brilliant! Now I need to find a way to lure my players into Moria so I can use it...

Rich.... have you ever considered applying for the white counsel? Dude, you are a wizard! I was planning on having an adventure that would lead my players into Moria not in their current adventure but the one after.... so your timing is quite impeccable since I was just today thinking of sitting down and starting to flesh out my ideas into details.... this is pretty cool...

I'll be the first to admit that it's a bit overwhelming to look at in that it has so many overlapping rooms since there are multiple levels and it's only on one plate plus there is little indication of relative altitude.. I guess you just figure that out as you go... but considering the complexity of the subject this map I feel offers a perfect balance between getting as much in as possible and being readable!

I'm pretty sure I'm going to print this out and use it as a prop somehow. I wasn't planning on the players having a map to Moria but I can invent something because I really like the idea of pulling this thing out!

So one problem I'm having is with the scale. The scale section in the bottom center has a segment cut into 10 sub-segments and says "a scale of 20 leagues" I'm guessing that has to be referring to the larger segment which indicates 20 leagues and that the sub sections represent 2 leagues right?

Unfortunately this still seems to big too fit with the large Wilderland map which may not be surprising since they are from 2 different games, which may have put the large middle earth map onto different scales. In TOR each hex = 10 miles, and if we look at the distance from the east to west side of the range near Moria we might end up with about 6 or 7 hexes, which is about 60 or 70 miles. This map on the other hand (just eyeballing it) looks to me to be about 5 times the 20 league measure, about 100 leagues! It seems 100 leagues is about 345 miles, so the scales are off from each other by a factor of about 5. That is this map seems to make Moria 5 times longer across than the misty mountains are wide at this section. I'm not sure which one more accurately reflects what the professor had in mind for the distances involved (I was unable to get an easy answer right now) I'm planning on sticking with the scales suggested on the TOR map for the purpose of consistency.

So my solution is to tell my players that the 20 league segment is 10 miles = and the sub sections would be 1 mile, and the whole distance would be about 5 hexes allowing that to go from one side of Moria to the other you'd have to go a little ways into the mountains.

As Rich already noted, Daniel's maps may have problems with scale

In the LotR, Gandalf estimates the straight line from West- to East-gate at less than 40 miles (ca. 13 leagues). Judging from this, the scale on Daniel's map is indeed way off and the TOR one closer to the mark though perhaps not as accurate, but that could be attributed to the in-world cartographer's inaccuracy. A small margin of error is always OK.

Cheers
Tolwen

Reeve and his scales! Aaargh!

Okay, how many leagues (or miles) do we think the total bar at the bottom should be? I'll do an edit/update if we can get to a workable consensus...

5 miles perhaps? So each sub-bar is 1/2 mile?

I just did a quick calculation. Taking Gandalf's statement and the distance between the two gates on the map as the frame, each of the ten segments equates to almost exactly 1.8 miles. IMO 2 miles for each of the ten segments as an approximation - given the overall abstract nature of the map - is OK.

Cheers
Tolwen

Shall I update it to state 20 miles then? Does that seem tolerable enough?

hold on, if I understand Tolwen correctly and the total distance straight is 40 miles, and if my eye balling that the segment is about 1/5 of the total distance then the segment should be closer to 8 miles (40 divided by 5 = 8 ). This makes the previous estimates of 10 miles or 5 miles more accurate than 20. That is... unless I misunderstood the comment about the total distance being 40 miles!

Well Tolwen stated this:

So, 2 (miles) x 10 (segments) = 20 miles.

... It's why I asked as I thought, like you, that the scale should be 5 miles in total - based on earlier posts.

Thanks for that link Rich, very much indeed!

I'd go with scale = 10 miles (10 segments of 1 mile each)

I agree that the scale looks about 1/5 of the total distance (as the crow flies) between the two gates.

If the scale is a measure of 10 miles, that would bring the distance between the two gates to 50 miles, which ball in-between Gandalf's statement (40 miles) and ToR's hex map (6 hex).

If it were really a dwarf map it would have East at the top.

Unfortunately I got numerator and denominator mixed up (quite obvious if you look at the presumed 20 mile scale bar and the 40 miles from gate to gate...). One of the ten segments equates to 0.55 miles (not 1.8). Thus the whole scale bar is 5.5 miles.

Cheers
Tolwen

Tolwen, it totally okay, you're the genius everyone goes to for obscure lore, if you didn't make an error once in a while some of us might believe you were more than human and forsake our religions and worship you :-)

Okay, I've gone with 10 miles in total so that each of the smaller segments is 1 mile. That feels like we're hedging our bets sufficiently and going for a scale that is approximately okay. 5 miles just felt a little too small.

I've updated the file accordingly.

Hahaha... That made me chuckle, thanks.

I guess the Fellowship won't like you - now that they have to walk twice the distance as told by Gandalf to reach the East-gate

Cheers
Tolwen

Would people prefer 5, then?

... I'm starting to get annoyed so make your ****ing minds up!

Personally - yes. IMHO one should stay wherever possible with the info we have from Tolkien. It is not often that we get such precise information. We have to guess and estimate enough on other points

It's not my map though

Cheers
Tolwen

Good point - 5 alive it is, then!

File updated.

If people have a problem with that, then tough - I recommend printing out the map, rolling it up very tightly and sticking it up <snip>!

:-) Point taken! You made me laugh with that last comment!

You've done amazing work Rich!

Gosh, ta very much!

We got there in the end - it was worth it though and I hope people find it useful. It really is a nice map and with the scale corrected and certain elements removed (which is really all I did) it will make a nice prop to impress players with!

Wow! Did I tell you guys how much I love good maps, I am like a hobbit when it comes to maps!

Thanks a bunch for this one.


/Khamul

Thanks for sharing! Nice map!

Just wanted to point out that while this map was designed for LotRO, it is not currently accurate for game play. Perhaps it was accurate upon the initial release of the Mines of Moria expansion, but things have since changed.

For instance, on the far right, the area shown around the Eastern Rift... Gandalf and the Balrog caused Durin's Bridge to be shattered. So players, to get through the area, have to take an alternate route. A wide, open-sided hallway goes around the Rift, heading northward, then eastward along the top of the rift, and southward once more, to allow passage out through the East Gate.

Of course, ultimately it doesn't matter. The map is a great piece of art.

There are any number of incredible vistas through out Moria. And, as with any 3D game, no 2D map can reveal the complexity of intertwined passages.



On a completely unrelated note, did anyone try pointing out to the Dwarfs that all those stairs are absolutely hell for bulk transport? I mean, it's hard lugging hand-trucks of metallic ores up and down flights of stairs to bring it to smelting and forging areas. Once you're done crafting goods, you've got to move it all again to get the armor, swords, pots & pans or whatever, out the appropriate Gate. Did anybody think to advocate the use of ramps?

hummm.. good point, time to call the construction teams back and start all over! That's a story I've heard before here in Montreal, I guess Moria isn't so different!

Seriously though the map changed at the time of the lord of the rings, but that is well after our tales in wilderland are being told so.... I think we are good!

Assuming we're playing the default TOR setting, it's a few years before Durin's Bridge gets shattered. Just saying

Ramps are for weedy races like Elves

[Edit: Looks like Cynan beat me to my first point]

LOL. My point was more about the map not matching the MMORPG. Had nothing to do with TOR... except for all those stairs.

Heh heh, I think the point people are making is that given the context of this site and the thread, I doubt anyone's particularly bothered about the MMORPG! ... The discussion's been about its use as a prop for TOR RPG and also sorting out the scale for that purpose as well.

Great stuff! Thanks for providing the link.