For those of you who are interested, here is a very preliminary idea for the Men of Dol Amroth. It's just a word document with everything bar a 'what the king says' section and fluff text.

I'm still a bit unsure about the cultural blessing, but it was the only thing my friend and I could come up with to reflect the nature of Amroth's reaction to being dragged out to sea. Feedback would be VERY much appreciated.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6z0y14hqj53r8w/D...h%20Prelim.docx

PS: this and my rohirrim culture are now in my signature I believe

Umm.... anybody got anything to say?

I like what you have done for the Knights of Dol Amroth, but I have to say that I really liked what you did for the Men of Rohan (my personal fav), I can't wait to see the offical rules for them in the future.

All-in-all very cool stuff, and well presented.

Yay. It's always nice to know I did good
Have you happened to use them?

Sorry, no. I am not the one running TOR in my group, and don't think our LM really wants "Unofficial" game material in his game.

Shame that. Perhaps you could find a kindly person on the forums to LM for you and a few interested others over the interwebz? That's assuming you aren't the only person who likes my work

Hi Beleg I thought I'd offer a bit of feadback.

I'm not sure about the Heart Driven cultural blessing, it seems a little weak. I like the name though. I'll have a think.

Good work on the backgrounds but I think it is very Knight/Warrior centric. I think you should wrap up the Elevated Champion, the Tarnished Honour, The Sworn Sword and the Knight in training into one or two options.

What to replace them with I'm not entirely sure.

Maybe you should expand it to include Belfalas as well as Dol Amroth

Here are a few ideas:

Loremaster
Seer
Coastal Warden (scout/ranger type)
Some kind of spy type guy who keeps tabs on the Corsairs of Umbar (can't think of a name at the moment)
Some guy with a hint of Elven Blood in him. Scion of Edhellond could work as a name.

Anyway it's food for though.

Too weak? Huh. And here I was thinking people would think it too strong

I agree that there's a lot of warrior type background thingies. I suppose my friends and I were thinking just about Dol Amroth and the only stuff we know for certain about it is that it has knights and boats. Oh, and some bloke drowned himself

I'll have a think about it

Cheers

Poosticks (or anyone else for that matter) have you got a better idea for the cultural blessing yet? Also, why do you find it too weak?

I haven't thought of a better idea yet.

The reason I think it is weak is because it's too situational and also too variable. What I mean is it is as situational as the Beorning ability (the one I consider the weakest blessing) and is variable because it depends on who the player choses as his fellowship focus.

For example who should he choose as his fellowship focus out of.

Boffo the cautious hobbit who slinks around at the edge of battles with his trusty bow.
Garlin the dwarf who wades into combat and relies on his impenetrable coat of mail.
Grim the Beorning who cares little for defense and only wears a simple leather shirt
Or Brand the Barding, master swordsmen and expert with his tower shield.

I hope you see what I'm getting at.

Beleg,

Greetings and well met! I thought to offer some thoughts from a Tolkien perspective and not necessarily from the mechanics inherent in your Men of Dol Amroth cultural write up per se.

Tolkien never indicated the knights of Dol Amroth fought with a lance. In fact, the lance and the type of horseback warfare it engendered never entered Dunedain warcraft with the little we know of it from Tolkien's writings. A wonderful footnote by Tolkien exists in The Unfinished Tales, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, Note number seven. This footnote mentions that among other things that the Dunedain stature and strength led them to bear heavy burdens of arms and armour in war prohibiting the use of horses as a tactic. Now, a lot of people contend with this reference and argue that in The RotK we hear of the knights charging the enemy ranks multiple times. But, the scene is never described quite like the charge of the Rohirrim as an advance of heavy cavalry with spears lowered. Again, Tolkien never describes the use of a lance, and for good reason given his issues with post Norman-conquest Arthurian romance! Also, the rationale I heard spoken of once, and it made some sense to me was that the lance's weight was to great combined with the other necessary wargear to turn Dunedain warriors into heavy cavalry. That is, if the Dunedain were of true descent from Numenor with their stature and strength to which the Men of Dol Amroth are most assuredly.

Just one thought among others I'm sure; and, as I said in another forum topic, a thought not meant to be anything definitive just an observation from the sources.

Best regards,
E

This might be one...

When I think of Cultural Blessings I ask myself what is the founding myth for that culture? What do they, the people of Dol Amroth in this case draw from and pass down generationally?

In this case, I would quote the passage from The RotK as the knights of Dol Amroth ride into Mina's Tirith. The strength of their Numenorean heritage has lasted three thousand years, and shows itself as they ride into the City of Anarion! Not only does it manifest in the line of its lords, but in the ranks of its soldiers. More than any other Third Age culture that descends from Numenor or its Exiles, I think the Men of Dol Amroth possess a special and unique blessing under the One Alone, their continuation as a people of the bloodline of Numenor.

CULTURAL BLESSING:

"Tall as Lords"

Strike a chord with what your envisioning?

Regards,
E

I honestly did not notice that. I guess in my head I just saw 'knight' and thought 'lance'.
I agree with you Poosticks that it is a situational blessing, and I am rather uncomfortable with it. Eluadin, have you any idea where one would go with a "Tall as Lords" idea? All I can think of is something along the lines of giving them an outstanding presence. Then again, I clearly don't know Tolkien as well as I thought

My thoughts turn to the impact made by the Men of Dol Amroth to the narrative in The RotK. Their presence influenced those around them quite powerfully, even to the point I think of altering the narrative. Something we might attribute precisely to their seeming, as if lords had walked from legend into real life. Something to do with the Personality skill group...

I would probably have it interact with...ah, but wait? The Dunedain exist on the other end of the spectrum from that of the Hobbits. This juxtaposition occurs when pondering those specifically Mannish cultures that are archetypal aspects of humanity. Both could be considered "branches" of the specifically Mannish family tree as Tolkien uses that word in his letters. Both Hobbits and the Dunedain represent what is potentially best in humanity as it manifests in Man...

I would give it an impact similar to the Cultural Blessing of The Hobbits. Something as significant as Hope...

What about Wisdom and Valour...?

When a player-hero with the "Tall as Lords" Cultural Blessing is in a Fellowship: each Dunedain of Dol Amroth character increases for every member of the Fellowship either Wisdom or Valour temporarily by one point when these are used for Tests. This as long as the character remains in the Fellowship.

This is my initial thought...

Someone tweak it and let's see where it goes!

Regards,
E

Not a bad idea, but the Abuse Police would just like to cite the possibility of A Party of Knights of Dol Amroth (numbering 5 characters total) now has a Wisdom/Valour of at least 6. The initial value of two plus four more (one for every other Knight in the party - excluding the character we're talking about). We'll ignore the rules that say the characters should gain additional Rewards & Virtues as this is a temporary increase. But just imagine the effect on Social Encounters.

I would go with the same idea, but limit the effect to being a max of +1 regardless of the number of Knights in the party.

(Actually, as a stray comment, the possibility of a +1 to Social Encounters ability might be interesting, but not sure its applicable to Dol Amroth. It might be good for the Hobbits of Anduin, assuming they're also a gregarious, homely and chatty group.)

Hmm, it's an interesting idea. But as Garn said, might get a bit OTT when you have more than one Dol Amrothian character in a party. Perhaps merely they gain a bonus to rolls during encounters or somesuch equivalent?

What either you or Garn bring to light, I would not argue against. It makes sense. But, the Dunedain, with the blood of Numenor strong in their veins, such as the Men of Dol Amroth, and Faramir, the Rangers of the North, not to mention the Elves of Rivendell, should be no small thing to introduce into the setting at the end of the Third Age. This is where MERP and Decipher's LotR failed in my opinion. Not all races and cultures have an equal impact when introduced into the story. Extrapolate that into game mechanics, its near impossible to normalize or equalize all heroic cultures that could be introduced from the sources, and believably balance their cultural attributes so that a player-hero form every heroic culture starts with the same "beginner" potency.

So, when we talk about a Cultural Blessing for the Men of Dol Amroth (or any other potent culture like Rivendell's Elves or the Rangers of the North), do we gage the appropriate starting attributes (e.g., Cultural Blessing) according to what has been published with Wilderland's heroic cultures? This attempt as an excercise to essentially balance everything so their isn't an over-the-top impact on the game. Or, does the correct level of power in a heroic culture's starting attributes come from The LotR? And, in that, the appropriate starting attributes (e.g., Cultural Blessing) might feel over-the-top when compared to those of Mirkwood's Elves or the Woodmen, etc.

Also, I would add, we should keep in my the basic asymmetrical nature of the system. An asymmetric that is necessary if you intend to capture Middle-eart through more than correct nomenclature.

Unfortunately, this meandering thought will not help much towards designing a Cultural Blessing for your new culture I fear.

Unless...

Talking (or writing) through this leads me to personally feel that any attempt to craft a ~Dunedain~ Cultural Blessing, and have that blessing be comparable in its potency to that of Wilderland's heroic cultures, it just doesn't make sense. By the time the official setting material is released in game time, i.e., as the timeline of the Third Age moves inexorably to the War of the Ring, we could be in the second or third generation of Wilderland player-heroes (not counting Elves or Dwarves). That could be two or three cycles of Heroic Heritage (LB, 120) for a Woodmen, Beorning or Barding. Additionally, for an Elf or Dwarf that might be a couple hundred experience points following the guidelines established under Heroic Heritage.

Hmm, I would create a ~Dunedain~ Cultural Blessing (and, in general, the starting attributes for the culture) assuming the same level of potency as having two or three generations of Heroic Heritage built into a starting character. And, the Cultural Blessing should be evidence of this "built-in" Heroic Heritage by being more potent than that of Wilderland's. Just an opinion though...

Does that make sense...?

Unhurriedly,
E

To TOR's Designers,

Hopefully, this is at least one voice that is offering an affirmation of and a continuing Hope to see the original intention manifest: That the release of new setting material with their heroic cultures continues to follow the Tale of Years as it moves TOR closer to and into the War of the Ring. And, in so doing, if I can speculate, provide a means for introducing more potent cultures, and do so without bleeding these cultures of their potency and mythic importance to equalize gameplay.

With unabashed admiration at such a daring proposal,
E

Well, the only other thing I can think of is perhaps adding to Battle:

So, if Aragorn was created with Battle 3, he would become Battle 3 +1 auto success with a single Knight within the party. Aragorn doesn't have to roll for the +1 - he gets that as a success no matter what happens. Aragorn does have to roll his normal Battle 3 per normal instructions (RAW).

I can't think of a good name for it at the moment though. Stalwart Ally? Battle Prowess? Inspire Greatness? Tactical Advisor? (Yeah, I'm all over the place with this.)

Also the timing needs to be considered. I'm going to suggest weekly, so that it doesn't undermine combat by being spammed too often. But note that I have not limited the number of Battle dice that can be added at any one time. So a character could be taken to skill max by this ability.


BTW, on the previous suggestion, with a large enough group of Knights, it is conceivable that a party could win-over Saruman or other BBEGs (dragons? Balrogs? The Mouth of Sauron?) during a social encounter. Perhaps even Sauron himself. Thus my suggestion to limit the ability.

I understand what you mean Eluadin, and I agree. But as you say, it's still a tough nut to crack.
Garn, I'm pretty sure the point of a Cultural Blessing is that it doesn't have to be invoked, and it's supposed to be stronger than virtues/rewards. I seem to recall Francesco saying something along those lines :/
Other than that I like the idea

Beleg

With Om14 fast approaching and the (hopefully) final unveiling of my Riders of Rhovanion and mounted combat pieces, I have been looking at the Dunedain a a Heroic Culture.

I have been trying to stay out of this thread, but what the heck.......


This is the overarching Dunedain Cultural Blessing that I am working with(it's still a work in progress). I haven't quite got the blurb right for it yet, either.

Dunedain Cultural Blessing: Faithful

These long-lived descendants of the folk of ancient Numenor are known as the 'Faithful' because they were not taken in by the guile of Sauron. They are renowned for being tall in stature, noble of countenance and quick of mind.

When choosing the Favoured Stats for a Dunedain character, the player may assign a (further) single point to the stat of his/her choice. The player may also choose two (further) common skills or a single(Further) Weapon Skill to record as Favoured.

Additionally, the Dunedain are more resistant than common men to the corrupting influence of the Shadow. When making a Wisdom Check to avoid corruption, the character may roll the Feat Die twice and discard the lesser result.


Thoughts guys?

Ack! Could you tell I've been up all night, again? What with the semi-coherent ramblings and all? Apologies, but maybe it will spark something.

At the moment I am working with the following four backgrounds.

Ranger of the North (and possibly of Ithilien. Are there enough differences to merit a separate background or are any differences the province of roleplaying?)
Gondorian Scholar
Gondorian Nobleman
Knight of Dol Amroth

Any thoughts on another two?

Ps

Sorry for any derailment Beleg. Feel free to tinker with anything I suggest for your own Heroic Culture. There are a couple of things in your document that I am thinking about stealing. Unashamedly.

Be my guest Halbarad. I 'stole' your Riders of Rhovanion backgrounds and tinkered a bit for my Rohirrim. May I enquire as to which aspects you wish to steal? Also, I like your idea for the blessing, but I'm slightly unclear on the first part. Do you mean the player gets an extra favoured skill? Or that they get an extra rank in one of their favoured skills?

Cheers

I hear you Eluadin. There are 'potent' cultural origins that by their very nature are more 'blessed'.
How do we introduce 'potent' Heroes into our games - keeping their distinctive flavour without ruining game-balance, & challenging player unity?
Imagine bringing a Noldor Hero into a party of Woodsmen, for example!
Unless you have a group who are ALL talented role-players creating a great tale despite glaring imbalances in character-power, then introducing a 'potent' Hero into the party may create a real dilemma.

On initial pondering I reckon a 'potent' Cultural Blessing should attract a balancing negative .... call it a Cultural Doom if you will?

Exploring this further - in the case of eg: Noldor, Peredhel (Half-Elves), or Heroes of distinct Numenorean-blood .... Dooms (appropriate to their backgrounds) should impact such Heroes enough to prompt most players to seriously weigh-up whether to play them.

Possible Cultural Dooms:
- a Hero of pure Numenorean-blood might have Pride of Ar-Pharazon
- a Noldor Hero has Feanor's Fire
( a bit extreme? - they're just to illustrate)

The LM would invoke these at appropriate moments in play to challenge the Hero (& player!).

Another possible aspect of Dooms could be that they inhibit 'potent' Heroes gaining experience in some way.
Spinning one example a bit further - maybe Pride of Ar-Pharazon makes the gaining of Wisdom more expensive??

Perhaps 'potent' Heroes do not experience Heroic Heritage as most Player-Heroes generally do, and/or their Heroic Deaths - though tragic & inspiring in the narrative sense - do not benefit that Player's next Hero...??

All of this is totally off the cuff now - so it is probably full of flawed logic.
When/IF I get the time I'll take a stab at fleshing things out a bit better.
If any Clever-Clogs out there wants to play with this ... go for it please! I'd be keen to see creative minds further develop the concept.

Poor Garn ... lack o'ZZZZs? Or migraine in the memBrane?

Howzabout "Bolster Ally"?

Oh sorry - just read Garn's "up all night" comment ... my own brain be a-compromised!

A quick thought mixing with all the rest...change Cultural Doom to Heroic Doom! Imagine if Francesco provides an altered Heroic Heritage mechanic for these "potent" cultures, and that includes building on Wyrm's suggestion a Heroic Doom.

These cultures are Fated to play a greater role in Middle-earth's grand drama, a doom they bear as assuredly as they bear their bloodline and Heroic Heritage?

Creating one of these characters involves starting off with a Cultural Blessing (unique in its potency), beginning experience garnered from a Heroic Heritage (steered towards Wisdom or Valour cultivation), and a Heroic Doom that mechanically balances the game dynamics.

Narratively, that is, to insure we're not paying lip service to game mechanics and play balance, those cultures that bear the mark of the Light of the West transmitted through the glory of the Noldorin and Sindarin lords of the First Age,

"But in the dawn of years Elves and Men were allies and held themselves akin, and there were some among Men that learned the Wisdom of the Eldar, and became great and valiant among the captains of the Noldor. And in the glory and beauty of the Elves, and in their fate, full share had the offspring of elf and mortal, Earendil and Elwing, and Elrond [and Elros] their children."

For the Dunedain are the offspring fated, in glory and wisdom, to partake of in full measure the fate of the Eldar. That is, to shape events and work hand-in-hand to the completion of the Vision of the One Alone that is the purpose of the Children of Iluvatar.

Halbarad,
A somewhat wild series of suggestions, still blaming the sleep:

• Anfalas Herdsman
• Dust Rat: Burglar variant: spies on Umbar/Harad - cannot recall what town is in the hills near the border. Probably MERP though.
• Erech Exorcist: More medieval version of Ghostbusters than a priest.
• Ithilhien Preservationist: hybridization specialist, renewing Ithilhien for extinct species but also promoting the return of animals and propagating plants whose habitat has been decimated by the war.
• Minas Tirith Trader
• Minas Tirith Proselytizer: high persuade & inspire sent into Umbar to make them return to Gondorian control
• Pelennor Farmer: animal handling & herbs?
• Pelargir Sailor/Seahand: a common sailor, dock worker, stevedore, etc
• Pelargir Privateer: anti-pirate
• Pelargir Explorer: aka, Afrikan explorers
• Belfalas Whaler:
• Wose Shaman: Crafters of Pukel men - north of White Mountains
• Wose (Daen Coentis) Animist: more totemic than Wose - south of White Mountains

Ok, out of your area of interest but as they popped into my head:

• Haradric Conservationist: Farmer/gardener specializing in desert plants and survival
• Tharbadian Montebank: pickpocket

Sorry, that's all I got at the moment. No idea if any of them are appropriate to their named area, they're probably not canon, etc. Just wild speculation. But from the list I think you can see why I suggested long ago to Beleg to handle each city/region separately.

Quite a selection there Garn....

I suppose that I should specify that I am thinking in terms of Heroic Archetypes from across the Dunedain gamut.

I am thinking of one simply being 'Man of the West'. This being to represent a kind of 'everyman' Dunedain character(if such a thing exists ).

So there's five.

I am starting now to see a small problem with my approach. I am going to need a heck of a lot of virtues and rewards. Some of them are going to be background rather than culture specific.

Beleg

Heart Driven is a lovely idea, but too weak for a Cultural Blessing.it is, more or less, perfect for a cultural virtue though. It's a definate.

I like the idea of the Swan Coat as well and Francesco once put an idea into my head about greaves and vambraces being a cultural reward for Knights of Dol Amroth.

I'm also going to slightly rejig some of your virtues.

Sorry Beleg, I just realised that I hadn't answered your question.

Regarding the additional point. It is added to any single favoured stat, not favoured skill.
It is meant to reflect an increased stat difference between the High men and the Middle men without being too overpowered.

So, Halmacil of Belfalas has a basic Stats Array of

Body - 5. Heart - 5. Wits - 4

He chooses Favoured Stats of

Body - 6. Heart - 7. Wits - 7

He may then increase any of these Favoured Stats by a further point to reflect his Cultural Blessing.

He chooses Body to round out his Favoured Stats to 7,7,7.

Ah, I see what you mean. I like it. And I also like the vambraces and greaves thing. I feel like I could throw buffs at these guys until the cows come home tbh

I've been pondering the lance issue since it was brought up, and I can't think of anything to replace it with. Does anyone have a better idea? Eluadin I'm looking at you here

Something to keep in Mind: Aragorn and most of the Dunedain I suspect entered the books at a higher experience point level. (Many of them 70+ years old).

The elves at rivendell are thousands of years old.

The only feasable campaign for a PC Noldor would be set in the first age.

"The elves at rivendell are thousands of years old."

I have always wondered about this in most fantasy games and LoTRs in specific. Most elves in the stories are thousands of years old, even young elves would be hundreds of years old. However, Elven characters are always created with the same points that every other race is.

Mechanics-wise this is IMHO a certain factitiousness in games to achieve balanced characters that work well in groups without dominating characters (ability-wise).

From the perspective of the world, all characters are assumed to be of beginner's type. Thus a 19-year old Dúnadan or 40-year Elf starting with comparable skill levels is OK. If they'd start at higher ages, i.e. after a longer period of socialization and "apprenticeship" within their cultures (perhaps 25-35 years for a Dúnadan and 60-100 years for Elves), it would be realistic for them to have noticeably higher abilities in their skills. The same would probably go for Dwarves.

Cheers
Tolwen

"Thus a 19-year old Dúnadan or 40-year Elf starting with comparable skill levels is OK.."

Yeah, it is one of the things I let slide in gaming. But, to play Devil's Advocate, the above really dosen't add up to me. The Elf has 20 further years probably actively defending Mirkwood. I think that adds up to a little more experinece then your average starting PC.

As you say it probably does have everything to do with creating "balanced" PCs.

I suppose that if you were to run a campaingn full of purely elves/dunedain/dwarves etc, you probably could allow them to start at a higher level skill wise, without any of the players getting miffed that they weren't as effective as their friend.

I've made an alteration to my proposed Dunedain Cultural Blessing.

The extra favoured Stat point is to reflect the difference between High Men and Middle Men without being too overpowering.

The extra favoured skills are to represent that Dunedain adventurers are generally older and with greater life experience.

It's on the previous page, if anyone has any comments.

Elves don't reach physical maturity until age 50. So even though they may be mentally mature, they have not yet come into their full maturity in body.

A 40 year old elf probably would not have that experience yet. I would guess that an Elf of 40 would be like a 15/16 year old human. Perhaps still in apprenticeship.


BTW mechanical came balance was something I do not care for in LOTR games. Merp had it. Decipher did not. TOR seems to, unless an Elf or a Dwarf will eventually live long enough to gain enough AP/EP to be out of range of most Humans.