Hi guys. I intend to make a few more cultures on top of the Men of Rohan I've already made, and the first one I want to create is the Men of Dol Amroth. However, I have hit a snag and am unsure how to start. The existing cultures can all quite feasibly contribute adventurers from any walk of life, whereas the only people from Dol Amroth ever really mentioned by Tolkien (to my knowledge) are a few Princes and the Knights of the White Swan (I think that's their name). This has led me to become a bit confused about how to go about them, as while Dol Amroth is a large city, I don't really think anybody would leave it to go particularly far afield unless they were a knight, which would mean it would make more sense to create a 'mini-culture' if you will, of the Knights of the White Swan, rather than Men of Dol Amroth as a whole. I may just be being dense again, I know I've done it in the past regarding TOR and Tolkien, so I thought I'd ask you guys for some help. So... any ideas?
Thanks
Beleg

Maybe you are thinking about this the wrong way.

Wouldn't man of Gondor be the culture and Knight of Dol Amroth be a background choice?

What I mean is, you never thought about splitting the Men of Rohan into subcultures so why split the Men of Gondor into subcultures?

Although in counter argument to what I just said you could split Men of Gondor into Southern Dunedain and Gondorian (the folk of lesser blood), in which case Knight of Dol Amroth would be a background choice for Dunedain.

Or if you want to kepp with your idea maybe Men of Dol Amroth should be Men of Belfalas, as that gives you more scope to develop backgrounds.


Hope this helps in someway .

The reason I want to make Men of Dol Amroth over Men of Gondor is that I have no idea whether they will ever be implemented, whereas Men of Gondor undoubtedly will be. There's also the fact that, to be honest, Gondor as a whole bores me, whereas Dol Amroth intrigues me. Though I suppose you do have a point. I suppose I was thinking along the lines of the fact that most of the cultures only come from one or two places, even the Rohirrim, while Gondor is large and moderately well populated, all things considered.

Also, I think you mean Numenoreans? Dunedain were only the Rangers in what was Arnor. I think :S

No Dunedain are the descendants of Numenor both the northern men of Arnor and the southern men of Gondor.

Though the southern lot intermarried much more with middle men and diluted their bloodlines.

One point to make the man of Dol Amroth an own culture, could be that there are rumours they have elvish bloood in their veins. But i also think the better way is to make them to a background choice: probably a bit fairer then the other men of Gondor.

I knew Dunedain were descendants, but I thought only those in Arnor were named such. I thought the ones settled in Gondor by Isildur merely became the men of Gondor :/

The elven heritage is an interesting point, but then only the Princes had that trait (I think) which would make the background essentially noble blood, something that would get awfully close to cannon. In my opinion anyway. Another reason I would prefer to make them a culture is because they are just that, a culture. And the whole of Gondor is filled with different people. Gondor is probably about the same size as Rhovanion, and there are already 6 or 7 cultures there, all of which are focused around a few s. Even the Woodmen with their four main settlements are all in the south-west part of Rhovanion.
Just thought it might help to clarify my thinking... I think I clarified it anyway

Personally, I would say create the culture of Men of Dol Amroth, with Knights being a background. Perhaps add Noble Blood (cut-down Fairy Background and <something?> to represent the mixed Elvish heritage; but the name isn't accurate enough for my preferences).

From what I've seen of TOR so far, it appears that SG/C7 are focusing very tightly on specific cultural groups. If they attempted to create a Gondorian culture with generalities and broad statements (as would be required for an all-inclusive reference to Gondor), I think the difference in approach might become apparent and negatively impact the effort. Readers will feel dissatisfied as the culture appears lackluster and without sufficient depth upon which to generate a character persona.

Keep in mind that Gondor is a huge nation with multiple sub-cultures due to terrain differences, lifestyles, and assimilation of prior inhabitants. So the differences between the people of Minas Tirith vs Ithilien vs Dol Amroth vs Pelargir vs Erech, etc are going to become apparent. This revelation might not occur immediately, but as the selection of gaming resources expand and begin to overlap, the shortcomings will become more obvious.

One word of caution. When creating, or expanding a culture so substantially, additional writing effort is required. Besides just the cultural information needed to make a character, you might find you need to expand other areas. For instance, the Tale of Years (timeline) for local history, Traits, Skills (alter/expand, don't add), including various adventure ideas/hooks, an adventure or even a campaign story arc hook. Short stories would also be of great help.

This differs from the situation with the Men of Rohan because that is a fairly well established culture within Tolkien's works. Dol Amroth is another matter. You have to know the Amrothian (or whatever they're called) culture and lifestyle at least as well as they do themselves. Otherwise you cannot provide enough detail for players to own their characters (well, at least not without outside reference material).


As for the other issue...

It is all a matter of Definition vs Usage. Which is why I include so many definitions and clarifying statements within my comments. Particularly since every time one group of people split into two or more groups, Tolkien gives them a new name.

The term Dunadain does refer to the Numenorean Faithful who settled Arnor and Gondor. However, in common usage the term only applies to the remaining people of Arnor, not allied with the Enemy (ie, excluding evil Rhudaurans).

Edain, which technically refers to all men, suffers the same problem. It is used predominantly to mean the 3 Houses of Men which entered Beleriand and supported the Elves and Valar in the War of Wrath. It specifically excludes the two additional groups of Men (Easterlings) who feigned friendship with the Elves upon arrival but were in service to Morgoth and aided him during the War.

Wow. That's quite a reply
Thanks Garn, it's nice to know somebody agrees with me
Also, I hadn't thought about the cultural/historical aspect of the culture. I'd honestly forgotten how little is common knowledge about Dol Amroth, despite my own admitted ignorance on the subject. I do however completely agree with you that it would be essential in order to allow players to create characters, as so far all the cultures have been fairly well known, or at least easily accessible.
Thanks for clarifying the Dunedain issue too
Just thanks in general to be honest

Well, this issue is one that I think is important and my opinion must be called a biased one. Particularly in Middle-earth, a favorite setting for millions, where any expansion is obvious.

I guess the "dol Amroth" culture never got made? I ask because in my game there is a player that wants their character to be from there.... it would have been perfect had this been created. Beleg, if you have dumped the project, is there any chance I can get access to your work so far?

Don't forget to check this link:

http://www.dol-amroth.de/roleplay/index.htm

for a really good website on Dol Amroth

Robin S.

I use that website frequently in a campaign I run with two mates

Cynan, at present, the link in my signature is the extent of the Men of Dol Amroth. I never really got around to finishing them due to real life commitments, such as starting university. It's the same reason I haven't balanced out some issues with the Rohirrim I made.

In the campaign I run with my friends, one of them is a (wo)man of dol amroth, and the only difference between that character's information and the information in the document I've got online is that the blessing and one of the cultural weapon groups are different, and it seems to be working fine so far. I think personally I wasn't really sure how other people would see them, or even think they work well in an actual game setting. I'll willingly email you everything I've got in case there are some discrepancies if you like

I missed that on your signature!

This is good stuff. I see what you are saying about needing some polish but.... it's a much better starting point than where I was! This is going to be great help!

Glad you like it
If you've got any questions about any of it, just let me know, I'll be as helpful as I can

Well I am pretty happy with what I have now... There is no "What the price says" because I feel that teh prince would hardly have much to say about most of the northern cultures, has he even heard of Beorn for example? Certainly not hobbits....

I'm not sure if there are other players who would like access to it, however I don't feel that I can rightly offer it without Beleg's express permission since it so heavily borrows from his document. I hardly touched the 6 backgrounds he wrote in for example. Also many of the vitues and rewards are either his or heavily inspired by his.

Beleg: if you would offer your permission I would post what I have here as a work in progress and allow other users to coment on it.

Feel free. I used large amounts of Halbarad's work in my Rohirrim culture, I just asked and credited him at the end. So long as you don't claim it's all your work I have no problem with it

Well this is the first time I try drop box... so let's see if this works:
Men of dol Amroth

You know I completely forgot about that Blessing, I changed it in my personal copy but never re-uploaded it

Also, I should probably have pointed out, I changed the lance to a steel bow, since the various Tolkien Loremasters on here pointed out that while they are known as Swan Knights, there is no actual account of lancework, but then, lances are fun

I especially like the Wariness of Spirit Virtue. Sounds incredibly useful.
Also, did I forget a Virtue? I only have five and you have six :s
You also have far better names than I did.

Anyway, all in all, I'm impressed. I should probably actually read your full introduction to them though

The introduction is the part that might need the most fine tuning. While I was aware of some of Dol Amroth's history, a lot is paraphased from the results of a wikipedia page... so a critical pair of eyes could nto hurt, though everything on the page seemed good to me, I'm not the most knowledgeable. I'm sure i could reword a few things to sound a bit better....

Yah the extra virtue... I ended up with 5 at first... small changes mostly to what you had.... and then ran it all past the guy who is going to take over as LM this fall.... it's actually for his girlfreind's character.... anyway he didn'r like the blessing for a few small reasons so I turned it into a 6th virue (with some edits) and couldn't decide which one to drop, and then forgot about it.... I guess having a 6th virtue does not break the game.... it just means you can't collect them all with one character!

I liked the lance too... I was tempted to leave it in.... one powerfull hit-then it's lost/broken! but figured players would want a weapon that could be used with slightly more versitility, mounted or on foot. Anyway I figure a spear can be used mounted. Infact for most of the middle ages a lance was really just that, a spear used on horseback... it was only in the later middle ages that lances became something different and middle earth tends to have a leaning towards the early middle ages... espeailly when it comes to armourments.... but that doesn't mean that one can't give a big bonus when using a spear mounted. Anywya that comes down to house rules... so i opted to leave it out.

As to the different backgrounds gettign different weapons, I can see why you would do that... I wouldn't see a mariner armed as a knight, but I wanted to keep it simple.... I'm half tempted to replace the mariner build with one based around the Player who was a lady disguised as a man who became a squire, and when she got found out (before she was knighted) was sent on her way (since feats of arms seem as male dominated in gondor as they were in the middle ages).. and then using the idea of mariners for a seperate Pelagir or "Mariners of Gondor" culture.... tempted but not there...

I really was not sure what people would think of "wariness of spirit" I've noticed almsot every culture has one virtue that seems a little magical.... so I added that... I dunno if it was too much or too magical... but I figured of all the regions in Gondor they are one of the most numenorian and also the stories of elven blood....

The player could always make up a background and use an acceptable set of attributes. Personally I'm somewhat against backgrounds that are gender specific, but I see no other reason to not have one.

Also, in case you're interested, this is what I ended up changing the blessing to:
Noble-Blood: The heritage of Dol Amroth is strong, and the people of Dol Amroth probably have the highest concentration of blood from the Numenoreans settlers.

• When creating a Man of Dol Amroth, assign an extra point to one Attribute score, and make an extra Common or Weapon Skill favoured. In addition, during Corruption Tests, roll the Feat die twice and keep the best result

I just read the information. I think the flag is actually a swan on a blue field, rather than a swan ship. Also, Edhellond itself, so far as I know, was never stated as being situated at Dol Amroth, rather it is nearby. Equally, the tower at the farthest point of the peninsula was built by Galadriel for Edhellond, and the city itself only came into being after the passing of Prince Amroth, who was either Galadriel's son, or the son of a different king of Lorien. However, as a basis for players wishing to understand how their character should act, I think you did brilliantly

You are probably right on the backgrounds (not writing up a new one) players tend to rework them as they see fit anyway and hers could easily fit "squire" or "tarnished honor" is some way shape or form. I think I thought of it because I'd heard someone else (maybe you?) reference making the culture for a female player and I'm doing just that... so part of me wonders if making a swan knight character is possibly typically a girl thing :-) Quite the irony if it were...

anyway i made a few small changes on the text, mostly compositional... the history is a little more chronological and I did remove or edit references that you pointed out seemed to be slightly off.... I saw a few different versions of the heraldry, but decided it doesn't matter what the heraldry is, so I took the description right out.

Just reread it, the only issue I see is a spelling mistake in 'Belfalas'

It might be a 'girl' thing, I don't know, all my players are male
Tried getting my girlfriend interested once... that went.. not great

Anyway, glad I could be of some help

Concerning their banner, this may help (from the LOTR):

And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses; and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.

Note that Tolkien wrote the 'Ship AND the Silver Swan.'

My two pence is that he meant both, which is actually kinda cool.

He mentioned 'banners' (plural), however, which indicates probably others from his knights. You can have your player create a Swan-knight from his lesser house with a separate banner, so it gives you a work-around

I encountered that text in my later search (just before I omitted the heraldry from the document).I think that you are 100% right. However when i first read it, I was not sure that there was just one heraldry that they all bear which has both a ship and a swan. I thought maybe it could be that there were 2 banners, perhaps one for the prince and his house and another for the people in service to him. I thought it also possible that there were many heraldries all playing on the same colors and themes of swan and ship. Regardless I don't need to nail it down in my document, though putting that quote in somewhere is probably a good idea :-)

Oops. Forgot about this

As you say Cynan, it could be talking about multiple banners. There seem to be many occurences of Tolkien writing things in an ambiguous way :/

Personally I prefer the image of a swan only, but hey ho