I know these materials are no longer in print - but does anyone know of a place that sells PDFs of these - like RPGshop or something???


The only available copies are expensive collectors prices on EBAY etc.

Robert

I don't believe there are legal PDF copies extent, sadly.

That's true, unfortunately. When MERP's license was not renewed, the rights to continue to publish or print existing material (including via pdf) were also lost. A similar thing happened with Traveller licenses a year or two ago, and will be happening, I think, to RuneQuest with Mongoose.

It's one of the major downsides to pdf publishing; existing copies of the books can be sold by a former licensee after the end of their run (they can't make more), but not electronic copies.

http://fanmodules.free.fr/

and

http://www.kingtape.se/realmsofarda/index....title=Main_Page

have a lot of fan interpretations and overviews of the MERP version of M-e. They would still be useful to TOR games, though mainly for ideas. There are errors/difficulties in the MERP canon - at first because the game emulated D&D in some ways, and later because they published stuff before the HoMe was put out by Christopher Tolkien, which corrected a lot of misapprehensions by fans.

IIRC, technically it was not "not renewed", but a running license was forcibly removed. That's an entirely different story though, and now only of academic interest. It highlights the licenser's (then Tolkien Enterprises, now re-named to Middle-earth Enterprises) approach to the Middle-earth gaming license though.

Best
Tolwen

So for someone like myself that didn't get into MERP when it was around in the mid 80s (I was into AD&D back then), what releases (if any) would you consider "essential" to get ahold of for use w/ TOR (that you've personally seen/read/own)?

I have the old Mines of Moria - the maps are way cool - not very good info with them though.

Just wondering if there's anything that gives a lot of good adventure ideas and good setting fluff to stage them in the Wilderland area specifically???


Robert

I have all the MERP products. I was writing my first freelance book for them when they folded.

The best MERP books are the ones produced late in the line history, after Chris Seeman became an editor for them. They are much better researched and strive to at least explain deviations from Tolkien.

Lake-town is an obvious choice for TOR, and it's very good.

Southern Gondor (2 books: The People and The Land) is amazingly good, as is its companion, The Kin-strife (a complete campaign, set in the 15th c. of the TA).

Hands of the Healer is a very good overview of healing and herbs in M-e which admittedly does range outside the NW but is very evocative.

The Northern Waste is a good setting book for the far north of M-e. I played in a campaign set there.

Palantir Quest is a complete campaign set in the 4th Age (early on). It's well written and interesting and involved a lot of journeying so the TOR emphasis on wandering works well.

After these, we have The Shire, and Arnor the People and Arnor the Land, all nt quite as good, but perhaps even more useful that the above for an Eriador campaign. The Shire is particularly helpful since it has a large section dedicated to the LotR period (the default period in MERP is 1640 TA).

There are numerous Rhovanion based adventures and books but they have issues with canon. If you are looking for interesting adventure ideas, this may not be important.

The LotR Adventure Game, which had an incomplete campaign - and is a simplified version of MERP could be mined for the modules, which are among the best written for a pre-TOR game. They are set in the late Third Age, as well, which makes them easier to use. The adventures took the characters from Bree to the Trollshaws to Rivendell and across the Misty Mountains, but the adventures for Mirkwood were not published.

PS.

The Minas Tirith book, most recent edition, is also very good, and might make for an urban alternative to Wilderland.

For a non-Late-TA campaign, there might be other interesting publications (adventures and settings) as well. Since their focus and informational value is tied to these other times (and regions), they are less useful for the standard TOR timeframe.

Here it is best to specify your area and/or time of interest and then we can tell you whether MERP had anything here and what its value was.

The Grey Mountains might be another idea for ideas and information in the TOR region. The primary time is TA 1640 (again) though and it is among the most expensive pieces on ebay & Co.

Best
Tolwen

To Sir KiCley

I have most of the MERP modules, and I agree with another reply that the later modules were better written in terms of trying to be more closer to Tolkien 'feel'. However, I will also say that in my over 20 years of roleplaying with various games and products, no one comes close to ICE when it comes to maps - put simply, ICE made the best maps ever in my opinion, and most of these were for Middle-Earth. This is especially important for a GM trying to describe 'where' and 'how' the PC's arrive at an important - in my experience this is often neglected by various game companies. A further boon was that the ICE's area maps usually already had the villages etc. marked on them - the GM just had to provide details, names etc!

Robin S.

I cant recommend enough the Atlas of Middle Earth, Tolkien Bestiary (David Day), and of course Silmarillion to really ad that depth of history feel. There is no end of lore and ideas that a GM can draw upon from what I consider to be the 3 primary staple reference books for Middle Earth. Also IIRC there are some good adventures in some of the shorter MERP modules such as Hillmen of the Trollshaws. Some of those can be picked up fairly cheap on ebay.

I also recommend some of the adventure sourcebooks for Pendragon RPG. There are alot of adventure hooks that have a very good Middle Earthy mood to them that could be easily converted.

@Tolwen - I was intent on finding material applicable to the assumed time/place of The One Ring (that is circa 2946 Wilderland)

Thank you all for the info.

My problem is that I simply don't know which ones are which; specifically speaking - I wouldn't know which ones are relavent (titles etc) or which ones were later.

In trying to go to the ICE website, there's no details on the MERP products as I assumed this is due to being no longer in print. etc. So I am finding it difficult to find references to which ones I should look for - then I can try to find them on Amazon or Ebay etc.

Indeed. I mentioned before that I have the Moria mines - the maps were phenomenal, and my aunt (who is the one who introduced me to Middle Earth and RPGs in the first place back in 1982) had some old MERP stuff and I remember how phenomenal the maps were!

Merry Christmas all,
Robert

Temporally speaking, MERP had almost nothing for the default TOR period, and IIRC, nothing at all for the region and time of TOR.
Spatially, there was some material for Rhovanion, and some for the larger region of TOR. Here you have to do some own work to adapt the usual TA 1640 setting to the Hobbit period. Often it is not that difficult, since even if MERP was officially TA 1640-based, they had a lot of anachronisms (or generically useful) things to ease the recognition for LotR-readers. In a sense they both wanted to keep and eat the cake (having another time with more freedom, and yet retain the easily recognizable and familiar events, places and people from the 'Hobbit' and 'LotR'-era).

For the region of (northern) Rhovanion, these are the publications that are IMO relevant:

• Lake-town: As already said, the best for the region. Highly recommended.
• Mirkwood: Together with its two previous incarnations (Mirkwood - The Wilds of Rhovanion; Northern Mirkwood and Southern Mirkwood) might sound good, but its designs are essentially early-80s-era (even the 2nd ed. version was not significantly improved) and thus only partly "tolkienish". There are a number of nice ideas though, but you should have not too high expectations as to the quality of its content.
• River Running: A series of adventures along the Celduin. A very DnD'ish type of adventures, not very tolkienish at all.
• The Grey Mountains: Covering the mountains of the same name. A quite good description of these very northern latitudes with good and useful information.
• Mount Gundabad: Already a bit far off the core region, but nonetheless useful. Some designs not very true to later posthumous publications (e.g. HoMe), but that was partially amended in Other Hands and Other Minds. Some designs need a bit of re-working though (e.g. the main entrance being a maze...), but overall quite decent.
• Dol Guldur: A really great setting for the second-greatest fortress of evil in the Third Age. Its design will probably differ a lot from the future TOR one. The artwork seen so far suggests a "normal" evil fortress atop a hilltop, whereas MERP had made it into an extinct volcano - with all its consequences. Thus the two designs are probably totally incompatible. Since Tolkien gave us no details on the nature of the "Naked Hill", there will probably no "correct" answer in the way of interpretation (unless I have missed a piece in the HoMe etc.).
• Brigands of Mirkwood: A nice series of three short adventures in a Northman town near the East Bight. probably problematic for the late Third Age due to the demographic changes in the region (unless you re-locate the place to a fitting in northern Rhovanion). In itself, it is a great string of local adventures, with only a a bit of change necessary (the evil overlord is yet another "immortal" but not undead mage/wizard). This latter is only a small mistake easily fixed.
• Goblin-gate and Eagle's Eyrie: Useful for settings in the Vales of Anduin region. Even though it was one of the early and small regional modules, it has some good data that can even be ported quite easily to the TOR-era setting.
• Darker than Darkness; Over the Misty Mountains Cold; Dawn comes early: Though technically not part of MERP, this - unfinished - series of adventures for the Lord of the Rings Adventure Game is a good inspiration for a series of adventures that cover a journey from the Bree area to Mirkwood in the late Third Age (e.g. The Hoobit and The Lord of the Rings era).

IIRC, that was it for ICE's coverage of the wider region of northern Rhovanion. If you have further questions, do not hesitate to ask

In addition, both Other Hands and Other Minds magazines had some useful stuff and info that might be of interest to you. Check out the link in my signature for a palce to download them as PDFs. Contact me if there might be problems with that

Best
Tolwen

Don't forget Goblin Gate & Eagle's Eyrie, as well as The Necromancer's Lieutenant. Happy Xmas...
Although these are more for Mirkwood/Anduin Vale......

Goblin-gate I had, though I missed Necromancer's Lieutnant (thanks for that). That was extremely combat-heavy, focussing around various fights with an orcish tribe on several occasions (e.g. being ambushed by orcs, later ambushing them in turn etc.) for different individual goals and finally an orcish attack on Northern Mirkwood. It is pretty straightforward, with no emphasis on character development, but military action over an extended area (something like travelling - in a sense). One might call it a more refined and detailed variety of Hack and Slay

Best
Tolwen

I forgot another one as well:

Denizens of the Dark Wood: It's a fairly normal adventure series (three adventures of increasing difficulty). The first two are the "rescue the princess" style (though it is not necessarily a princess that's in distress) and a third about - simply - rooting out a lair full of orcs (the hack'n slay part) and looting the treasure that is bound for Dol Guldur. Again, fairly simple and not overly imaginative, but they could form a basis for further development.
They are nominally set in the Long Lake region, so might be something to think about.

Oh yes - and of course there is a title of the sub-series Fortresses of Middle-earth called Halls of the Elven-king. Not an adventure per se, I deem it very good nonetheless, as it gives a - IMO - good representation of the halls of Thranduil (only too abridged of course...). In addition, it provides some "flesh on the bones" concerning the Wood-elves' organization, history etc., even if it has to be fixed a bit here and there.
IMO overall this latter is highly recommendable as well.

Best
Tolwen

Thanks to you all and especially Tolwen for taking the time to write such a detailed overview. I much appreciate it.

Funny that the Mirkwood supplement is not well regarded as it was the one I would most have wanted to take a looksee at. I read the description on some website I found and it seemed to detail exactly the areas that I was looking to put some adventures in for my players.



I'll check some of these out. Again thanks!


Robert

You're right, it is a pity that the shortcomings of the first Mirkwood modules from 1983/84(!) were not really adressed and mostly retained in the 1995 version. The same holds true for the Angmar module, which saw three incarnations as well, with similar problems

In Other Hands, Issue 10/11, you find a review of Lake-town, while Issue 12 has a very detailed review of the 2nd ed. Mirkwood and of Dol Guldur as well. They can be found under the already mentioned link. If there are any problems, please contact me, and I'll assisst you in getting access to them
These reviews (and others, scattered over several Issues of OH; see the TOC that is supplied with the Issues) should be able to lead you to an informed decision concerning which of the old modules you deem worth purchasing.

Best
Tolwen

P.S.: SirKicley; you're welcome. I have been fixed on ME-RPGing for 25 years and seen a lot things happen, and even more to fold or never happen. It's good to see "late-comers" share an interest in past games as well. It's the setting that is the very core of gaming in Middle-earth, and that binds us all together

MERP's "Halls of the Elven King" is on topic for TOR and is good as well.

It is a shame that Mirkwood was not substantially revised for its most recent edition. But it was criticism of its shortcomings that prompted the better editorial work on the later Realm books - Southern Gondor in particular.

Though Brigands of Mirkwood has some issues (a powerful spellcaster), it would be easier to use than some of its counterparts, since it's primarily a setting (a town of ruffians in the East Bight).

Dol Guldur is far too deadly to use for a TOR-style game.

Riders of Rohan actually has some info on the Northmen of Rhovanion.

I used to own the Merp Moria supplement many years ago(about 20 ) but it is lost to the mists of time. I currently possess the Decipher box set which seems to do 'exactly what it says on the tin'. Do any of you guys currently own both for comparison purposes and which do you think is the better product?

Yes, I have it all (MERP and the Decipher game [LotRRPG]). IMO it cannot be answered easily. The MERP incarnation has strengths in the overall layout of the city (in the Decipher game, Moria is built largely randomly in the "building Moria" section). Here the MERP approach was more comprehensive in mapping out at least the major areas of the entire city. For my taste, the floorplan quality in MERP's Moria was better, looking more professional. The LotRRPG had a much better Tolkien research and fidelity (Chris Seeman was one of the authors), especially in the booklet about the Dwarves of Middle-earth - which concerns Moria only partly of course. If I had to choose, I'd say that the LotRRPG Moria offers more and better research and background info on the topics covered, while it was a bit lacking in the concrete "worldbuilding" approach. Therefore I see it in the lead, but not by a very wide margin.

IMO a combination of both publications' strengths gives the maximum benefit for a setting here. If possible, I advise to get them both. If you can get only one, go for the LotRRPG version. If you're looking for the MERP incarnation, make sure that you get the 2nd ed. version (Stock #2011) instead of the 1st ed. version (Stock #2900). The latter is mostly of interest for collectors, since the 2nd ed. has everything from this one, plus additional material.

Best
Tolwen

EDIT: The LotRRPG design for the place was (as usual) the one (or almost so) from the PJ movie and not original. For some this might be an issue.

Thanks Tolwen. Having had another quick browse over the Decipher box, I have to say that it is really very good.
You mention that you have all the Decipher stuff as well as the Merp stuff. There were rumours of an Isengard PDF and a magic PDF that circulated back in the day. Can you shed any light on whether they ever actually existed?

Yep. Both of them existed (for a short time) as PDF's. Again, the design of the book draws heavily on the movies, so that might be an issue for those looking for more original artwork and designs. In Isengard there was a tendency begun to partially move away from movie stills and introduce original work. The same holds true for Paths of the Wise (the magic supplement). Both are among the best LotRRPG products IMO.

The content of the LotRRPG Isengard compares very favourably to ICE's Isengard and Northern Gondor, but the comparison is a bit unfair. The ICE book is from 1983 - the beginning days of MERP - and covers a wide area of which Isengard is only a small part. In addition it never got an update in MERP's later days - though that was planned for the Northern Gondor module IIRC. The Decipher book covers only Isengard and can therefore go into much greater depth. Still, the floorplan quality of Isengard and Northern Gondor is - IMO - competitive even nowadays if you give it a small bonus for its age

Best
Tolwen

Tolwen,

I also want to thank you for your reviews of the MERP & LOTR materials. You've helped us a great deal with your descriptions, & I'm going to brush-off a few & have a look at converting them to TOR (Phew ).

BTW, I agree with your take on the two iterations of Moria - I love what Decipher & Chris Seeman did with the exception of the floorplans, at which I'm a bit disappointed. I enjoy MERP's greater development in that regard, though they both have the strengths & weaknesses you discuss. The Decipher book on Dwarves is a blast & opens up endless vistas for LMs - I highly recommend it for anyone working on Dwarves in Middle-earth, whatever the system you play.

Ditto for Decipher's Isengard - I'm not too keen about their interpretation of Orthanc & the vale, but actually like some of the villains they've given Saruman.

At any rate, I can't wait to see what Francesco & Jon do with Moria, not to mention Eriador & the surrounding realms. Whoa...

I have been running a campaign, using what I call my Middle-earth d20 rules, called "Following the Fellowship." Each PC in the campaign has their own reason for following the Fellowship of the Ring (two have unrequited love for Aragorn, a Dwarf is jealous over his cousin being chosen as a member of the great quest when he was not, and an Elf that is bored with life and seeks excitement and a way to help). They begin a pursuit approximately one week behind the Fellowship. They ultimately gain access to Moria through a Dwarven watchpoint that was discovered by Dunlendings and utilized to pilfer objects from the ancient realm.

Anyway, I have used a combination of 1st edition MERP: Moria (never was able to acquire the 2nd edition), Decipher's Moria box set, and Lord of the Rings Online's maps for Moria (downloaded from http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Maps#Moria ). I really like the traps in MERP's version ... the rolling pin stones in the corridor are particularly nasty (and I couldn't see a way for anyone to survive 'em if they were caught in it), but gave a real sense of danger AND accomplishment when they were disarmed! The Dwarf write-up, clan-wise, in Decipher's box are VERY good, too. Until LotRO, I'd've given the edge to the maps in MERP, but since then, I've used the LotRO map layouts for descriptive sake with random features, hazards, encounters, etc. taken from MERP (although, I DO now use some of the critters from LotRO, too ... "There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.").

So, rather than answering your question properly, I say use both AND add another source to your list, as well.

If people are looking for MERP Material many of the file sharing sites have files uploaded.

As I re-read this thread and begin to apply what I've learned about the various products and begin my research it becomes apparent that I didn't truly make my intentions clear enough:

I typically have no problems developing a plot/storyline/hook for adventures etc; so "modules" (as defined by a pre-published adventure) aren't nearly as important to me to obtain as books/material that discuss in detail a region/area with which I can draw upon to create my own ideas and stories.

Previous works that detail Mirkwood, or the lands of the Beornings - that tells of hamlets, or topographical detail, popular NPCs, lifestyle, traditions, folklore, hierarchy, general attitudes/beliefs/gossip/rumors/biases, etc: essentially the setting and stage needed for inspiration. As I sit to plan my now semi-weekly game of TOR, I realize this is the kind of detailed knowledge I lack.

I dont actually need entire module adventures; though I will say that some of those I read for Decipher on Jrtalking's site have been pretty well written.


Robert

haha and sadly I haven't an once of a clue on how to use them. Frankly this entire culture of bit torrent users etc is a mystery to me.

The closest I ever came to any of that was Napster years ago and stopped when the lawsuits began (thanks again Lars Ulrich!)

Robert

If anyone is interested: On the german eBay there are both ICE's Moria (2nd ed.) as well as Decipher's Moria for sale.

If you are interested and from a region where the sellers won't ship, contact me and we can arrange a proxy solution.

Best
Tolwen