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bighara |
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 09:54 AM
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Very nice set. Still working through the details.
The creatures list seems a bit thin, IMO. I understand not having every single ME creature, but no barrow wights? Also, maybe I'm missing it, but I would have thought more "normal" creatures might have made it into the mix (Eagles, etc.). Like I say, I haven't finished the books yet, so maybe I missed something. |
timb |
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 10:10 AM
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I would guess no barrow wights because the set isn't located in the Barrow Downs tbh. But badgers, the immortal enemies of all decent folk (and especially Tom Bombadil), seem to be absent. I cried when I realised...
![]() It would be nice to get some sort of Bestiary for TOR in the near future which includes normal animals, humanoids and monsters! And since Bestiaries are medieval and I believe referenced in Tolkien's stuff, it would be cool to see it called TOR Bestiary! -------------------- ![]() 222 off being the Devil member |
bighara |
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 11:28 AM
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re: wights, I figured if you were pulling hobbits all the way from the Shire, you could have wights, too. Nothing says they are only at the Downs.
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Garbar |
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 12:11 PM
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Probably a good thing there are no barrow wights! One of them took out four hobbits and the quest would have ended there were it not for Tom Bombadil! Let's leave the barrow wights where they are until Errantries of the King, where I'm sure they will crop up! |
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 02:14 PM
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I think the key to a variety of adversaries in TOR is not to have a long list of varied monolithic types, with fixed stats and abilities, but rather to make each adversary unique within the types that are provided. Cookie cutter monsters aren't really the spirit of ME. The really impressive ones (the Balrog, Watcher in the Water, etc.) are, in essence, unique. The Monster Manual approach to ME monsters isn't really fitting.
Fell Spirits (lesser Maiar and Elven Spirits bound into physical form, or not) are really the best origin for other ME monsters outside the standard lists. Vampires, Wargs, Wights, Wraiths and such are all variations of Fell Spirits. I cannot recommend enough Chapter 1 of the Necromancy supplement by Eric Duborg found here: LotR RPG Archive - Gallery 4 Much of the document imports MERP derived material into CODA, but the explanation in Chapter 1 (including highly applicable quotes from Tolkien) is a fantastic resource and applies to any ME game, IMO. Although the supplement lists some monsters in it, with CODA stats and all, the best way to regard these is as examples, IMHO, not fixed, static cookie-cutter 'classes'. As long as the fundamental underlying basis is understood, unique variations can be brought into the game. Don't forget that one of the keys to good monsters is to give them real motivations and unique personalities. Consider what made Grendel, for example, such a compelling monster in Beowulf, and contrast her with her monstrous son. These are the sort of monsters that fit in ME. FWIW |
Arandil |
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 02:37 PM
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I'm posting the most pertinent references here as a resource for discussion. I pulled these from Eric's document:
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 03:30 PM
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So, if you want really fitting and colourful monsters for ME, take some inspiration from the old European myths, legends and fairy tales and leverage Tolkien's explanations above. In a sense, all ME monsters, from orcs to trolls to dragons, are a variation of the same idea: Morgoth twisted the spirits and bodies of Maiar and Elves and beasts to create his army of monsters.
Ungoliant was a powerful spirit (one who rivalled Valar, even Morgoth was afraid of her), who birthed a brood of lesser offspring, including Shelob (who in turn birthed a brood of lesser offspring in Mirkwood). Barrow wights are essentially just corrupted and entrapped Elven spirits bound into the barrows of men. The enchanted streams of Mirkwood are most likely enchanted by bound disembodied fell spirits; they're effectively haunted streams. Balrogs are powerful Maiar (only 'lesser' in comparison to Sauron) trapped within the forms they chose to bind themselves into. The origins of dragons are not explicitly described by Tolkien, but they're closest to permanently embodied Maiar in capabilities. Orcs are essentially derived from tortured and twisted Elves (or Men, as Tolkien later considered) or even Maiar (!). Perhaps some orc chieftains of the North are remnants or descendents of (really) lesser Maiar bound into orc 'form'. These orcs would be terrible indeed, and may even command some sorcery. The Watcher in the Water is either one heck of a twisted and corrupted mundane beast (a kraken?), or an embodied spirit that has become utterly beastlike and thoroughly entrapped within its form. The 'fell beasts' that the Nazgul rode are either remnants of Morgoth's workings or the best attempts of Sauron to mimic his master. In a sense, they might be considered akin to the Watcher of the Water, in terms of how they may have originated or been created (i.e. twisted, corrupted and empowered 'natural' beasts, or permanently embodied and entrapped spirits). These ideas are all essentially conjecture, but the point is that if you start with the premises Tolkien describes, you can come up with a number of variations. What about lesser Maiar embodied, like those Maiar orcs Tolkien presumed, into terrible hag-like forms, haunting evil swamps and forests? What about lesser Maiar embodied into giant, troll like forms (the 'Stone Giants' of the Misty's?). Essential ideas to keep in mind: The longer a spirit (corrupted Elven spirit or Maiar) is embodied in a form, the less capable they are of leaving it, or changing it. The more will and power such a being expends in a given form, over the long term, the more they dimminish in personal power. The more powerful a monster is, the more likely it is to be unique or limited in 'type'. |
Skywalker |
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 06:32 PM
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Barrow wights are definitely set 2 which covers Eriador and the early Lord of the Rings. -------------------- “There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. ... You certainly usually find something if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after."
- Thorin Oakenshield |
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eldath |
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 08:42 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 109 Member No.: 1775 Joined: 8-August 11 ![]() |
The one main thing I found (apart from my parties lack of accuracy with Bows) was that I had forgotten the fact of the orcs weapons being listed at the start of the orc section, so when I threw 4 orcs at them as an encounter I ended up using the stats for a normal sword.
It is not so bad in the adventure which comes in the loremasters book as both the stone troll and the marsh dwellers had their weapons and attack forms listed on the same page. Perhaps monster cards or similar might be useful so if you throw a combat encounter in you have everything you need in front of you. Especially with a new or relatively new group. E |
Osric |
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 08:43 PM
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The Adversaries/Bestiary section IS thin. I can recognize the intention to have the Player-Heroes concentrate on properly evil foes, but I'd like to have more of the denizens of Middle-earth statted up. I'd like stats for common folk -- for when the PCs have to defend them against the depredations of monsters -- and standard 'bandits' and Bill Ferny-type scumbags, and Easterling raiders and stuff like that...
That's a really good observation, Arandil! But I'd still assume you need a base line of the general types to work from, however much you encourage Loremasters to customize the specific adversaries they pit against their PCs.
I should note for the record that Eric posted and introduced the Necromancy supplement, but Jose Enrique Vacas is the author. (And hey, I'd forgotten that I scored a 'Thanks' credit on that one! ![]() And this isn't a Bestiary point, but eldath mentioned the orcs' weapons in their own separate section... We need an expanded Armoury as well as a Bestiary! Whilst I approve of the motive for not presenting the full standard range of medieval fantasy-weapons like maces and crossbows (which don't explicitly appear anywhere in JRRT's work), the weapons list really needed to include at least clubs and staffs and improvised weapons -- and probably a number of other things that haven't yet leapt out at me as obviously as those. Cheers, --Os. -------------------- The Treasure of the House of Dathrin - Actual Play of original material in HârnMaster, 2008
The Rescue of Framleiđandi – Actual Play of The Marsh Bell as adapted for use in this campaign. A Murder of Gorcrows - Actual Play of original material. (last entry 20 Feb 2013) www.othermindsmagazine.com – a free international journal for scholarly and gaming interests in JRR Tolkien's Middle-earth |
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Skywalker |
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 08:56 PM
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Usual human like adversaries are very easy to stat up in TOR. I agree it would be nice to have them statted in full but it really isn't worth the page count unless the adversary is a monster with unusual abilities: 1. Choose Attribute level: p26 of LM 2. Choose 6 Skill Group levels: p26 of LM 3. Make 1 Skill Group Favoured and 1 Favoured Weapon Skill (optional) 4. Add 1 Trait (optional) 5. Note Endurance: p27 of LM -------------------- “There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. ... You certainly usually find something if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after."
- Thorin Oakenshield |
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 10:16 PM
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I wish humbly to say a thing or two about Barrow Wights,
Actually, in keeping with Professor Tolkien's vision of Barrow Wights, they are spirits that were summoned by Melkor from an outer world, utterly alien and devoid of life as we know it. It is surmised that Melkor opened this gate at Angband in the depths of the dungeons of Utumno in the first age and the Nazgul and Barrow Wights and other such spirits were summoned from it. When Angband was leveled and a better part of Western Middle Earth sank into the Belariand Sea the gate was destroyed and the spirits that came through it are forever trapped in Middle Earth and can never return to their home world and they cannot die. So a Barrow Wight can never be destroyed, only banished away to a different part of Middle Earth to exist in futile powerlessness until they can attach themselves to a new corpse and regain their powers. It is surmised that they can also possess the living but the power drain is too much on them so they prefer corpses (since corpses don't resist possession?). It is surmised that these spirits were sent by Melkor to possess the corpses of Kings and destroy the Hopes of men who were promised by the Valar "the Gift of Death" and whose spirits were given a home in the House of Mandos. Imagine how the people's hopes would wither if they began to believe the Valar had lied if the spirits of men did not go to the house of Mandos but could rise from death to plague and haunt them bringing horror to the dark places of Middle Earth which were not so fearful before. ----------------------------------------- I should add that these things I write about were gleaned and extrapolated from the writings of Tolkien by scholars in his lore who are way more well versed than I. I have been privileged over the years to be a part of a group of Tolkien lore luminaries and have learned much Tolkien lore from them. These fellows are old school MERPers. Each year they hold a TolkienMoot in Seattle and do nothing all weekend long but game and discuss gaming topics and lore of Middle Earth and they have much to share and I have benefited from their knowledge that I have used to enhanced my own games immensely. I have no doubt that TOR will be on the table at next year's TolkienMoot. One such fellow is a poster on this board, a fine fellow called Osric who is knowledgeable in such lore, and has written many articles for OtherMindsMagazine, a free publication for and about gaming in Middle Earth. Another poster here is Hawke, founding member of MERP.com and many other groups and lists than I can remember to recount here. These people live and breathe Middle Earth and it is no surprise they are here in this Forum. For a great write up about Barrow Wights gleaned from Professor Tolkien's writings read this article; Visit the link below and go to the DOWNLOADS tab and then get Other Minds Issue #1, and read "Of Barrow Wights" by Neville Percy http://www.othermindsmagazine.com/ -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 10:40 PM
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Sure, that would be handy for LMs, and would certainly be worth a page or two in the LB, from our point of view, but that might not do the topic justice. How about we all step up and start a commoner NPC thread? I'll open it up.
I can see the use of templates, and even more so, a text of guidelines and examples. It's currently possible to go shopping from the list of hate 'powers' in the LB, I guess, but without a sense of the underlying premise of power in ME, that might just be incoherent and chaotic. Maybe we'll have to turn this thread here into a discussion of guidelines and suggestions, ourselves? ![]()
Oh, good to know! I missed that. And kudos, I still have your "Lore & Reverence to replace Clerisy" merp.com post saved on disk, from way back, errrr, jeez at least a decade?
I agree, this stuff would be handy. The good news is that a custom list isn't very hard to come up with, there's few parameters involved, at least. |
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 10:46 PM
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This is all interesting conjecture, but from which of Professor Tolkien's writings was it gleaned that Barrow Wrights and Nazgul were summoned by Melkor from the outer dark? I've never encountered anything the Prof wrote that said so. Do you have sources? For one thing, the Nazgul were created by Sauron in the Third Age, long after Melkor was cast out. I presume that you've never read the relevant writings in the volume Morgoth's Ring, then? |
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 10:53 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
I have only read the books, Hobbit, Lord of the Rings series and including Silmarillion and Lost Tales but none of the other source Tolkien materials.
I apologize if I am mistaken and have drawn these conclusions from a number of sources not necessarily by Tolkien himself. I do not profess to be a scholar of Tolkien either, just a gamer who loves Middle Earth and all it's lore. I have included "it is surmised" as these ideas being references extrapolated from bits and pieces I have read. I personally did not make any of this up and I feel my sources are reliable. On any detail I posted here, I will gladly stand corrected if proven to the contrary -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 11:18 PM
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No need to apologize! This is a discussion board after all. But, I would encourage you to list your sources, and examine more. The claim of some kind of magic spirit gate in Angband is a new one to me. That sounds like D&D, which is fine, but it's not Middle Earth.
Feel free to put forth any conjecture you have, but show us where you got it from. ![]() |
Skywalker |
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 11:36 PM
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![]() Wow, you are not pulling any punches are you. ![]() -------------------- “There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. ... You certainly usually find something if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after."
- Thorin Oakenshield |
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 11:36 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
Very good!
As for the spirit gate, well I haven't played D&D in so many years that I don't know the rules for 3.5, but a concept stuck in my mind, and may have been surmised to be some sort of portal or "way" into Middle Earth. The idea is that these things came from some other place and were not present at the creation of the world in the Song of Illivatar from what I have gathered. This seems to infer there was some way in. Most of these concepts come from reading fanzine publications dedicated to Tolkien's writings. I will read over a couple I have in mind to see if I might have misread or somehow extrapolated the extrapolations! After all I do have a very active imagination. You yourself seem to be well versed in Tolkien lore to bring this to my attention. I will read your articles with interest. Thanks! -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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bbarlow |
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 11:56 PM
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Group: TOR index group Posts: 77 Member No.: 1629 Joined: 30-June 11 ![]() |
According to the Encyclopedia of Arda, this is patently incorrect. From the Encyclopedia:
Further, searching on Angmar reveals the following. Paragraph 5, last sentence:
Again, though, just according to the Encyclopedia of Arda... |
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 12:15 AM
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Someone please call me out if I sound like a railing curmudgeon ... ![]() I have no intention, nor ability, to be a Tolkien cop, mercy! And D&D is OK, or w/e; I do have a soft spot for the original red and blue boxes myself, got me started and all. So, no offense beyond a bit of ribbing. Hearty ribbing. I might have liked it too. |
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Skywalker |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 12:33 AM
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Its cool. You made it clear you meant well. It was just combining the "its not ME" with "its like D&D" was like a binary explosive ![]() -------------------- “There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. ... You certainly usually find something if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after."
- Thorin Oakenshield |
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Venger |
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
Here we go, I have found a couple of the references I have read and extrapolated from. I re-emphasize... these are extrapolations of writings from the writer of a fantasy world and extrapolations of writings by his fans. I am not trying to make anyone believe as I do, These concepts work for me and my gaming group and we have adopted them. If you wish to debate Tolkien canon, then I urge you to take it up with someone more scholarly than I and had I known my posting would have raised such a debate I would have refrained. These are from the Other Minds Magazine Issue #1 "Of Barrow Wights"
Here is a Tolkien Quote-
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The "not before", meaning to me that they came out of Angband/Utumno but were not born of Illuvatar. It is my understanding that Melkor didn't create anything, just perverted things. If he didn't create them they came from elsewhere.
This last quote, which is admittedly an extrapolation, specifically suggests to me and makes sense (as far as fantasy things go) that these wraith-spirits are from some other world. Then I extrapolated that If they are from some other world, they got in some kind of way. I called it a gate. Maybe it was a wormhole, who knows right? Which by the way, another time, not tonight, I will try to find the other extrapolations to the "way" having been destroyed with the destruction of Angband so that these spirits cannot be permanently banished. It sounded good to me... Where do these things come from and how did they get into Middle Earth? It really doesn't matter. Tolkien scholars debate these details and I am not even one of them. So strike my original wordings suggesting a gate as that of a tired mind after a long day, just eager to share what he loves and enjoys. And I want to add, I take no offense. And your questioning of my posts are justified No Harm No Foul ![]() -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 12:46 AM
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![]() jk |
Skywalker |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 12:55 AM
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Mind esplode! -------------------- “There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. ... You certainly usually find something if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after."
- Thorin Oakenshield |
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 01:29 AM
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Well, in that case, we'll just simply have to dip you in Nutella and toss you to the bears, sorry.
Debate? Oh come now, my good fellow, that was merely a cogitation, barely the whiff of a tiff! And please don't hold back, there's no need to take me more seriously than I do. Imagine that I'm wearing a tutu and Mickey Mouse hat, that always works for me.
Inferring that Tolkien's metaphors of extreme distance somehow imply that the Barrow Wights were from an "other world" is a stretch. There's no reason that this interpretation is any more likely than an interpretation where Tolkien was simply using a writing device to suggest creepiness from a character's limited point of view. This "other world" is actually the spirit "world" within Middle Earth itself, the same spirit world that Glorfindel shone brightly in at the Ford of Bruinen when Frodo was so far gone over to the spirit world himself that he was seeing the spirit world more than the physical world. I won't quote any further from the essays in Morgoth's Ring because I pasted practically all of the relevant bits further back in this same thread. Simply pop back and give them a (another?) read, if you want to know what my sources are.
And if the Wraiths are Men whose bodies have been shifted into the intangible spirit world as a way to circumvent their fate to die of old age, then of course the Wights (being spirits themselves) are of the same world. This 'wraithworld' isn't another world apart from the spirit world of ME, as Frodo could see Glorfindel's shining form as strongly as he could see the Wraiths. This stuff is the personal interpretation and conjecture of the article's author, which is fine, but it's far from being the only or necessarily the most likely interpretation, considering everything that Tolkien wrote. Tolkien also wrote that Men's spirits were both weaker in power and harder to bind than Elven spirits. Elven spirits could use magic and posses bodies, even going so far as to eject someone's spirit from their own body! (again, see the essays in Morgoth's Ring, I posted much of it earlier in this thread).
Tolkien indicates in Morgoth's Ring that Elven spirits can choose to refuse the summons of Mandos, but could be bound by Necromancy. He also states that Necromancy is the art of forcing spirits to one's will and is thereby an inherently corrupt practice. I don't believe that Bombadil would go so far as to force a spirit to any particular place, that isn't his right, but it would seem acceptable that he would undo the corrupt binding that held a spirit in the barrow, leaving it to its own meager devices after that. Such corrupted spirits, once released, would be pretty unlikely to go back to Mandos on their own, and it would be corrupt of Bombadil (or anyone) to force them to, even Mandos/Namo himself does not do that! The only place they can go is somewhere else in Middle Earth, unless summoned by Sauron or the Witch-King again. As Tolkien also stated in Morgoth's Ring, the longer a fell spirit is housed within a form, the weaker they become once unhoused, and so Bombadil wasn't himself reducing the spirit's power, that would happen as a by-product of being ejected from the form it had been housed in for so long. If you think it's fun to use the interpretation from the OH article, go for it! It's your Middle Earth in your game. But that interpretation relies upon too much conjecture to be authoritative, and doesn't seem to fully or correctly incorporate Tolkien's thoughts in Morgoth's Ring (which may or may not have even been published at the time that the article was written, I don't recall offhand). And get off my lawn! |
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 01:36 AM
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BTW, I'm just going to pretend that you didn't actually say "wormhole" in a Middle Earth discussion.
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 08:54 AM
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Arandil I ackowledge that for all you may know concerning the topic, were it not for rudeness and arrogance one might think you were a person of substance. Humility is a virtue obviously not held in high esteem. Pardon me for venturing out on "your" lawn -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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GhostWolf69 |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 08:58 AM
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Was I the only one reading heartfelt irony and giggles into Arandil's post?
I think (thought) there was a lot of humour in there and smiled while reading. /wolf -------------------- "Pain, as the billing vouchsafes, is painful..."
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eldath |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 09:00 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 109 Member No.: 1775 Joined: 8-August 11 ![]() |
No, you weren't wolf.
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 09:05 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
I truly meant no contraversy when I posted friends.
I offered a different point of view about something we hold dear. I would say these postings agreed more than disagreed and furthermore much good information was brought forth. -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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GhostWolf69 |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 09:13 AM
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Good. Just checking. Since English is not my first language, sometimes I have to double check so I don't miss something obvious. Like say... thinking someone is making an honest attempt at a joke when he's actually just being a prick. ... but I guess it can sometimes be both. /wolf -------------------- "Pain, as the billing vouchsafes, is painful..."
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 10:01 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
I don't know anyone on this forum yet. If Aradil's comments (other than the excellent presentations on Middle Earth) were jokes meant to be-humor, or be-little, I couldn't really tell without knowing more of the person behind the comments. -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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GhostWolf69 |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 10:13 AM
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Understandable. I just tend to read things with a positive eye and try to think the best of people. Even ones I don't know I try to give the benefit of the doubt since I like to believe there is hope for human kind. But I could of course be wrong and I understand your sentiment. /wolf -------------------- "Pain, as the billing vouchsafes, is painful..."
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 10:16 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
So, back to the subject of Barrow Wights....
I have not completly gone through all of TOR in the few days I have had it. If you had to make up a Barrow Wight for an ongoing campaign you might try to convert to TOR, given the rules, excepting any house rules, what might one look like in TOR terms? -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 10:20 AM
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I agree Wolf. I pass it on as we having a real fiery passion for this stuff. It's all good. Arandil I might have misunderstood your intention. I enjoyed the information it brought us. Thanks -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 02:44 PM
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Venger! Mellon! Please don't be offended! I was hoping that the tutu and Mickey Mouse hat gave me away, I was not at all giving you a hard time, Wolf has it right. Please enjoy the discussion, it was meant to be enjoyable! |
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 03:00 PM
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Very good, all is well, I'm not offended, just had my feathers ruffled a bit because I misunderstood I recant my previous statement about arrogance/rudeness and look forward to more good discussions -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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caul |
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 04:52 PM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 147 Member No.: 518 Joined: 1-January 09 ![]() |
Okay...soo...back to monsters.
Anyone actually working on statting any other types out? -------------------- "I never ask a man what his business is, for it never interests me. What I ask him about are his thoughts and dreams." H. P. Lovecraft
The Laundry Mission Generator Suite "Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens." Gimli, The Fellowship of the Ring TOR Character Builder Assistant | TOR Loremaster Tools |
Arandil |
Posted: Aug 18 2011, 05:24 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 42 Member No.: 1739 Joined: 3-August 11 ![]() |
Good question! I'm going to give a long and probably meandering answer. Here's how I'd go about it, but I'm not recommending it to anyone. First, I'll hit the source, scoping for clues. Then I'll lay out assumptions, referring to associated text from the Professor (like essays, etc.). Then I'll scope TOR for stuff I can use. Then I'll attempt to stat a barrow wight. All throughout, I'll ramble on and on about sundry, most likely. Scoping text for clues: In 'Fog on the Barrow Downs', the hobbits picnic at a standing stone on the edge of the barrow downs. They fall asleep, though they didn't mean to. Now, they'd been walking all day and had a nice picnic in the sun. So, they could have just naturally fallen asleep, but what a coincidence. When they awoke and came to, the hobbits, and their ponies, were notably disquieted. Tolkien wrote "They felt as if a trap was closing about them,..." Perhaps there was enchantment involved, either in the place, or a spell of the wights cast upon them as they rested. Nothing conclusive, but I'll keep it on the side to consider. The area about the barrows was cloaked with fog and very cold. Now, since this was autumn, again, this could be entirely natural. However, it could also be another subtle hint that there's something enchanted about the place, or perhaps the wights can influence their environment in subtle ways. Again, nothing conclusive, keep on the side to consider. As they try to make their way out of the downs, there's an interesting bit w/Frodo:
Yet another suggestion of some subtle enchantment in the area. Again, nothing conclusive, very subtle. But by this point in the chapter, there's obviously something subtle and sinister going on in the area. Nothing totally unnatural, but seemingly natural phenomena pushed to an extraordinary extent. Again, nothing conclusive here, but there's a nice stack of stuff about the eerie and possibly supernatural environment of the barrow downs off to the side now. It's also at this point that Frodo realizes that he somehow got separated from the others, even though all of the hobbits (and their ponies!) had attempted to stay close together. In fact, he was so far separated from his companions that, when he ran off calling out for them, he heard only the faintest suggestion of answering cries. That's kind of odd. He climbs a steep slope chasing the cries of his lost companions, and ends up at the top of a barrow hill. There, the wind picks up and packs an icy chill, and then Frodo meets a barrow wight.
OK! So now we get some useful description of a wight. They have a strong grip, that's for certain. Now, did Frodo simply faint when he was grabbed? Or was that something that the wight did to him with his touch, wittingly or unwittingly? Frodo wakes up in the barrow:
Dreadful spells! That sounds like fun. Another item for the inventory. And possibly something we could use to explain the odd events that transpired, along with Frodo's 'fainting' at the touch of the wight. As Frodo is lying on a cold flat stone in the barrow, he notes a growing pale greenish light, seeming to emanate from himself and the floor around him. Strange. Beside him were the other three hobbits, in a deep sleep. I'm just going to come right out and say that this seems to be an enchanted sleep. They didn't wake up until Tom Bombadil later sang a song (spell) to awaken them. If Frodo had fallen under the same sort of spell when the wight first seized him, perhaps it was only the One Ring that Frodo bore which gave him the ability to wake up a bit early on his own. Pure conjecture, but not outside the scope of Gandalf's hints about the Ring increasing the inherent power(s) of its bearer. The Barrow-wight begins to sing in the darkness:
As the wight was chanting, it was also moving its hand toward the hilt of a sword laying over the necks of the three hobbits laid out on the floor beside Frodo. All of the hobbits were dressed up in robes and wearing circlets, their hands upon their breats, everything seemd very ritualized. Whatever this incantation was, it wasn't something that directly affected Frodo. Rather, this incantation seemed to be a curse upon the hobbits, that they should lie in the barrow until the world ends. Of course, the wight could have just been referring its intentions of killing them and leaving them dead in the barrow, but it could have done that with the sword, easily enough, without all of the ritual. Perhaps it was a Necromatic ritual of some kind, to curse the spirits of the hobbits and trap them in the barrow? That's not utterly contrary to Tolkien's own descriptions of Necromancy, but I'll still leave it as conjecture for now. Whatever the ritual might have signified, Frodo wasn't apparently inhibited by anything other than his own fear, which he acted in spite of by taking up a short sword and hacking the wight's hand off. He later thought he saw the severed hand wriggling about 'like a wounded spider'. Creepy. Noted. After saving the hobbits, gathering up their lost ponies and sharing a lovely little meal, Tom Bombadil laid out the treasures from the barrow:
So, another(?) Wight could have come and haunted the barrow if Tom hadn't broken the barrow's spell. Interesting. This implies that the wights are bound to the barrows themselves, to the place. Well, that's a start now certainly. I'll take a break from my musing and come back to it, probably tomorrow, after I scour some other texts. Cheers |
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 18 2011, 12:13 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
Very interesting and well dissected. By the way I love conjecture, extrapolation, surmising and all that stuff is goooood... weave on friend The professor left us plenty of room for it.. Other minds, other hands.. thats us!
By the way, It's the "large and cosmogonic" idea that prompted my "wormhole" comment LOL I am just thinking (in text) out loud here, So we are looking at some possibilities but few hard and true references by Tolkien to magical or supernatural effects that could be translated into gaming terms and hard numbers, or some of them are so subtle as to be questioned whether Frodo actually perceived them. You have a lot of ground covered with several (canon text inferred but not quantized) possible supernatural effects in play, excellent work (i'm extrapolating again- sincerely beg your pardon it gets me into trouble sometimes ;-) ) Effects might be; fog, cold, altered perspectives, unseen mazes, sleep, fear, a luring enchantment, light, (a pale greenish light, creepy visual effect, but why? the wight might need light to see by?) A tall order smaking of great power. I think Barrow Wights are underrated in most gaming systems. This one needs to be played as if it were a dragon IMHO, the LM will just have to keep a "Tom Bombadil" in his back pocket just in case things go arwy... Can we assume the wight's purpose is to expend all this power with some sort of ritual as the climax of all this expenditure of power? A sacrifice to a higher power? Or something more "personal" to the wight? Does it need to feed? or perhaps sustain the power investment in the Barrow? But why bother with four measly hobbits and a couple of packies? Seems like slim pickings, but I am guessing the Barrow Downs might be a fairly avoided place, and a poor Barrow Wight must take what it can get ![]() Or maybe hobbits are made of stronger stuff than assumed. As for the Barrow itself, I'm assuming that the wight's power is invested and arises from the Barrow, surmising from Tom Bombadil's actions, items needed to be disbursed widely afield to prevent it, or another one from assuming the investment This extrapolates (possibly) that the Barrow itself is the key to the wight's power. So could a richer or poorer Barrow directly affect the wight's total power capabilities? (in gaming terms, more powerful wight = bigger rewards) I really like your idea that The One Ring mitigated Frodo's circumstances, otherwise his saga might have eneded up being a short story! Well done, I look forward to reading what comes next -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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