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> Monsters, Just started reading my GenCon copy
bighara
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 09:54 AM
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Very nice set. Still working through the details.

The creatures list seems a bit thin, IMO. I understand not having every single ME creature, but no barrow wights? Also, maybe I'm missing it, but I would have thought more "normal" creatures might have made it into the mix (Eagles, etc.).

Like I say, I haven't finished the books yet, so maybe I missed something.
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timb
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 10:10 AM
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I would guess no barrow wights because the set isn't located in the Barrow Downs tbh. But badgers, the immortal enemies of all decent folk (and especially Tom Bombadil), seem to be absent. I cried when I realised... wink.gif Even the badgers in LOTR Online are dangerous when you start up!

It would be nice to get some sort of Bestiary for TOR in the near future which includes normal animals, humanoids and monsters! And since Bestiaries are medieval and I believe referenced in Tolkien's stuff, it would be cool to see it called TOR Bestiary!


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bighara
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 11:28 AM
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re: wights, I figured if you were pulling hobbits all the way from the Shire, you could have wights, too. Nothing says they are only at the Downs. wink.gif
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Garbar
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE (bighara @ Aug 12 2011, 01:54 PM)
but no barrow wights?

Probably a good thing there are no barrow wights!

One of them took out four hobbits and the quest would have ended there were it not for Tom Bombadil!

Let's leave the barrow wights where they are until Errantries of the King, where I'm sure they will crop up!
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Arandil
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 02:14 PM
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I think the key to a variety of adversaries in TOR is not to have a long list of varied monolithic types, with fixed stats and abilities, but rather to make each adversary unique within the types that are provided. Cookie cutter monsters aren't really the spirit of ME. The really impressive ones (the Balrog, Watcher in the Water, etc.) are, in essence, unique. The Monster Manual approach to ME monsters isn't really fitting.

Fell Spirits (lesser Maiar and Elven Spirits bound into physical form, or not) are really the best origin for other ME monsters outside the standard lists. Vampires, Wargs, Wights, Wraiths and such are all variations of Fell Spirits.

I cannot recommend enough Chapter 1 of the Necromancy supplement by Eric Duborg found here:

LotR RPG Archive - Gallery 4

Much of the document imports MERP derived material into CODA, but the explanation in Chapter 1 (including highly applicable quotes from Tolkien) is a fantastic resource and applies to any ME game, IMO. Although the supplement lists some monsters in it, with CODA stats and all, the best way to regard these is as examples, IMHO, not fixed, static cookie-cutter 'classes'. As long as the fundamental underlying basis is understood, unique variations can be brought into the game.

Don't forget that one of the keys to good monsters is to give them real motivations and unique personalities. Consider what made Grendel, for example, such a compelling monster in Beowulf, and contrast her with her monstrous son. These are the sort of monsters that fit in ME.

FWIW
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Arandil
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 02:37 PM
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I'm posting the most pertinent references here as a resource for discussion. I pulled these from Eric's document:

QUOTE
“The fëa [spirit, in this context Elven one] is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused. Among those who refused the summons (or rather invitation) of the Valar to Aman in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waiting is, the Eldar say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the fëa unbodied would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge - unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion. In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter summons of Morgoth.”

But it would seem that in these after-days more and more of the Elves, be they of the Eldalië in origin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons of Mandos, and wander houseless in the world, unwilling to leave it and unable to inhabit it, haunting trees or springs or hidden places that once they knew. Not all of these are kindly or unstained by the Shadow. Indeed the refusal of the summons [of Mandos] is in itself a sign of taint. “It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.“

“Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it he not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.”

- Morgoth's Ring: Of re-birth and other dooms of those that go to Mandos


QUOTE
[The Elves certainly held and taught that fëar or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body)], even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed] if they do not sink below a certain level. Since no fëa can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is not clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen [after the destruction of the One Ring] below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a ‘wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may bewholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain forever in impotent desire or memory of desire.

- Morgoth's Ring: Myths transformed


QUOTE
In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).

- Morgoth's Ring: Myths transformed


QUOTE
“But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope.”

The Silmarillion: The History of the Silmarils, Chapter One “Of the Begining of Days”


QUOTE
“The dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.”

- The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
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Arandil
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 03:30 PM
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So, if you want really fitting and colourful monsters for ME, take some inspiration from the old European myths, legends and fairy tales and leverage Tolkien's explanations above. In a sense, all ME monsters, from orcs to trolls to dragons, are a variation of the same idea: Morgoth twisted the spirits and bodies of Maiar and Elves and beasts to create his army of monsters.

Ungoliant was a powerful spirit (one who rivalled Valar, even Morgoth was afraid of her), who birthed a brood of lesser offspring, including Shelob (who in turn birthed a brood of lesser offspring in Mirkwood).

Barrow wights are essentially just corrupted and entrapped Elven spirits bound into the barrows of men.

The enchanted streams of Mirkwood are most likely enchanted by bound disembodied fell spirits; they're effectively haunted streams.

Balrogs are powerful Maiar (only 'lesser' in comparison to Sauron) trapped within the forms they chose to bind themselves into.

The origins of dragons are not explicitly described by Tolkien, but they're closest to permanently embodied Maiar in capabilities.

Orcs are essentially derived from tortured and twisted Elves (or Men, as Tolkien later considered) or even Maiar (!). Perhaps some orc chieftains of the North are remnants or descendents of (really) lesser Maiar bound into orc 'form'. These orcs would be terrible indeed, and may even command some sorcery.

The Watcher in the Water is either one heck of a twisted and corrupted mundane beast (a kraken?), or an embodied spirit that has become utterly beastlike and thoroughly entrapped within its form.

The 'fell beasts' that the Nazgul rode are either remnants of Morgoth's workings or the best attempts of Sauron to mimic his master. In a sense, they might be considered akin to the Watcher of the Water, in terms of how they may have originated or been created (i.e. twisted, corrupted and empowered 'natural' beasts, or permanently embodied and entrapped spirits).

These ideas are all essentially conjecture, but the point is that if you start with the premises Tolkien describes, you can come up with a number of variations. What about lesser Maiar embodied, like those Maiar orcs Tolkien presumed, into terrible hag-like forms, haunting evil swamps and forests? What about lesser Maiar embodied into giant, troll like forms (the 'Stone Giants' of the Misty's?).

Essential ideas to keep in mind:

The longer a spirit (corrupted Elven spirit or Maiar) is embodied in a form, the less capable they are of leaving it, or changing it.

The more will and power such a being expends in a given form, over the long term, the more they dimminish in personal power.

The more powerful a monster is, the more likely it is to be unique or limited in 'type'.
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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 12 2011, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (bighara @ Aug 12 2011, 03:28 PM)
re: wights, I figured if you were pulling hobbits all the way from the Shire, you could have wights, too. Nothing says they are only at the Downs. wink.gif

Barrow wights are definitely set 2 which covers Eriador and the early Lord of the Rings.


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eldath
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 08:42 AM
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The one main thing I found (apart from my parties lack of accuracy with Bows) was that I had forgotten the fact of the orcs weapons being listed at the start of the orc section, so when I threw 4 orcs at them as an encounter I ended up using the stats for a normal sword.

It is not so bad in the adventure which comes in the loremasters book as both the stone troll and the marsh dwellers had their weapons and attack forms listed on the same page.

Perhaps monster cards or similar might be useful so if you throw a combat encounter in you have everything you need in front of you. Especially with a new or relatively new group.

E
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Osric
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 08:43 PM
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QUOTE (timb @ Aug 12 2011, 02:10 PM)
... It would be nice to get some sort of Bestiary for TOR in the near future which includes normal animals, humanoids and monsters!

The Adversaries/Bestiary section IS thin. I can recognize the intention to have the Player-Heroes concentrate on properly evil foes, but I'd like to have more of the denizens of Middle-earth statted up.
I'd like stats for common folk -- for when the PCs have to defend them against the depredations of monsters -- and standard 'bandits' and Bill Ferny-type scumbags, and Easterling raiders and stuff like that...

QUOTE (Arandil @ Aug 12 2011, 06:14 PM)
I think the key to a variety of adversaries in TOR is not to have a long list of varied monolithic types, with fixed stats and abilities, but rather to make each adversary unique within the types that are provided. Cookie cutter monsters aren't really the spirit of ME. The really impressive ones (the Balrog, Watcher in the Water, etc.) are, in essence, unique. The Monster Manual approach to ME monsters isn't really fitting.

That's a really good observation, Arandil!
But I'd still assume you need a base line of the general types to work from, however much you encourage Loremasters to customize the specific adversaries they pit against their PCs.

QUOTE (Arandil @ Aug 12 2011, 06:14 PM)
Fell Spirits (lesser Maiar and Elven Spirits bound into physical form, or not) are really the best origin for other ME monsters outside the standard lists. Vampires, Wargs, Wights, Wraiths and such are all variations of Fell Spirits.

I cannot recommend enough Chapter 1 of the Necromancy supplement by Eric Duborg...

I should note for the record that Eric posted and introduced the Necromancy supplement, but Jose Enrique Vacas is the author. (And hey, I'd forgotten that I scored a 'Thanks' credit on that one! smile.gif )

And this isn't a Bestiary point, but eldath mentioned the orcs' weapons in their own separate section...
We need an expanded Armoury as well as a Bestiary!
Whilst I approve of the motive for not presenting the full standard range of medieval fantasy-weapons like maces and crossbows (which don't explicitly appear anywhere in JRRT's work), the weapons list really needed to include at least clubs and staffs and improvised weapons -- and probably a number of other things that haven't yet leapt out at me as obviously as those.

Cheers,
--Os.


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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE (Osric @ Aug 17 2011, 12:43 AM)
I'd like stats for common folk -- for when the PCs have to defend them against the depredations of monsters -- and standard 'bandits' and Bill Ferny-type scumbags, and Easterling raiders and stuff like that...

Usual human like adversaries are very easy to stat up in TOR. I agree it would be nice to have them statted in full but it really isn't worth the page count unless the adversary is a monster with unusual abilities:

1. Choose Attribute level: p26 of LM
2. Choose 6 Skill Group levels: p26 of LM
3. Make 1 Skill Group Favoured and 1 Favoured Weapon Skill (optional)
4. Add 1 Trait (optional)
5. Note Endurance: p27 of LM


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Venger
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 10:16 PM
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I wish humbly to say a thing or two about Barrow Wights,

QUOTE
Barrow wights are essentially just corrupted and entrapped Elven spirits bound into the barrows of men.


Actually, in keeping with Professor Tolkien's vision of Barrow Wights, they are spirits that were summoned by Melkor from an outer world, utterly alien and devoid of life as we know it.

It is surmised that Melkor opened this gate at Angband in the depths of the dungeons of Utumno in the first age and the Nazgul and Barrow Wights and other such spirits were summoned from it.

When Angband was leveled and a better part of Western Middle Earth sank into the Belariand Sea the gate was destroyed and the spirits that came through it are forever trapped in Middle Earth and can never return to their home world and they cannot die.

So a Barrow Wight can never be destroyed, only banished away to a different part of Middle Earth to exist in futile powerlessness until they can attach themselves to a new corpse and regain their powers.

It is surmised that they can also possess the living but the power drain is too much on them so they prefer corpses (since corpses don't resist possession?).

It is surmised that these spirits were sent by Melkor to possess the corpses of Kings and destroy the Hopes of men who were promised by the Valar "the Gift of Death" and whose spirits were given a home in the House of Mandos.

Imagine how the people's hopes would wither if they began to believe the Valar had lied if the spirits of men did not go to the house of Mandos but could rise from death to plague and haunt them bringing horror to the dark places of Middle Earth which were not so fearful before.

-----------------------------------------
I should add that these things I write about were gleaned and extrapolated from the writings of Tolkien by scholars in his lore who are way more well versed than I.

I have been privileged over the years to be a part of a group of Tolkien lore luminaries and have learned much Tolkien lore from them.

These fellows are old school MERPers. Each year they hold a TolkienMoot in Seattle and do nothing all weekend long but game and discuss gaming topics and lore of Middle Earth and they have much to share and I have benefited from their knowledge that I have used to enhanced my own games immensely.

I have no doubt that TOR will be on the table at next year's TolkienMoot.

One such fellow is a poster on this board, a fine fellow called Osric who is knowledgeable in such lore, and has written many articles for OtherMindsMagazine, a free publication for and about gaming in Middle Earth.

Another poster here is Hawke, founding member of MERP.com and many other groups and lists than I can remember to recount here. These people live and breathe Middle Earth and it is no surprise they are here in this Forum.

For a great write up about Barrow Wights gleaned from Professor Tolkien's writings read this article;

Visit the link below and go to the DOWNLOADS tab and then get Other Minds Issue #1, and read "Of Barrow Wights" by Neville Percy

http://www.othermindsmagazine.com/


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Arandil
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 10:40 PM
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QUOTE
The Adversaries/Bestiary section IS thin.  I can recognize the intention to have the Player-Heroes concentrate on properly evil foes, but I'd like to have more of the denizens of Middle-earth statted up. 
I'd like stats for common folk -- for when the PCs have to defend them against the depredations of monsters -- and standard 'bandits' and Bill Ferny-type scumbags, and Easterling raiders and stuff like that...


Sure, that would be handy for LMs, and would certainly be worth a page or two in the LB, from our point of view, but that might not do the topic justice.

How about we all step up and start a commoner NPC thread? I'll open it up.

QUOTE
That's a really good observation, Arandil! 
But I'd still assume you need a base line of the general types to work from, however much you encourage Loremasters to customize the specific adversaries they pit against their PCs.


I can see the use of templates, and even more so, a text of guidelines and examples. It's currently possible to go shopping from the list of hate 'powers' in the LB, I guess, but without a sense of the underlying premise of power in ME, that might just be incoherent and chaotic.

Maybe we'll have to turn this thread here into a discussion of guidelines and suggestions, ourselves? tongue.gif

QUOTE
I should note for the record that Eric posted and introduced the Necromancy supplement, but Jose Enrique Vacas is the author.  (And hey, I'd forgotten that I scored a 'Thanks' credit on that one! smile.gif )


Oh, good to know! I missed that. And kudos, I still have your "Lore & Reverence to replace Clerisy" merp.com post saved on disk, from way back, errrr, jeez at least a decade?

QUOTE
And this isn't a Bestiary point, but eldath mentioned the orcs' weapons in their own separate section...
We need an expanded Armoury as well as a Bestiary!
Whilst I approve of the motive for not presenting the full standard range of medieval fantasy-weapons like maces and crossbows (which don't explicitly appear anywhere in JRRT's work), the weapons list really needed to include at least clubs and staffs and improvised weapons -- and probably a number of other things that haven't yet leapt out at me as obviously as those.

Cheers,
--Os.


I agree, this stuff would be handy. The good news is that a custom list isn't very hard to come up with, there's few parameters involved, at least.
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Arandil
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE (Venger @ Aug 16 2011, 06:16 PM)
I wish humbly to say a thing or two about Barrow Wights,

QUOTE
Barrow wights are essentially just corrupted and entrapped Elven spirits bound into the barrows of men.


Actually, in keeping with Professor Tolkien's vision of Barrow Wights, they are spirits that were summoned by Melkor from an outer world, utterly alien and devoid of life as we know it.

It is surmised that Melkor opened this gate at Angband in the depths of the dungeons of Utumno in the first age and the Nazgul and Barrow Wights and other such spirits were summoned from it.

When Angband was leveled and a better part of Western Middle Earth sank into the Belariand Sea the gate was destroyed and the spirits that came through it are forever trapped in Middle Earth and can never return to their home world and they cannot die.

So a Barrow Wight can never be destroyed, only banished away to a different part of Middle Earth to exist in futile powerlessness until they can attach themselves to a new corpse and regain their powers.

It is surmised that they can also possess the living but the power drain is too much on them so they prefer corpses (since corpses don't resist possession?).

It is surmised that these spirits were sent by Melkor to possess the corpses of Kings and destroy the Hopes of men who were promised by the Valar "the Gift of Death" and whose spirits were given a home in the House of Mandos.

Imagine how the people's hopes would wither if they began to believe the Valar had lied if the spirits of men did not go to the house of Mandos but could rise from death to plague and haunt them bringing horror to the dark places of Middle Earth which were not so fearful before.

-----------------------------------------
I should add that these things I write about were gleaned and extrapolated from the writings of Tolkien by scholars in his lore who are way more well versed than I.

I have been privileged over the years to be a part of a group of Tolkien lore luminaries and have learned much Tolkien lore from them.

These fellows are old school MERPers. Each year they hold a TolkienMoot in Seattle and do nothing all weekend long but game and discuss gaming topics and lore of Middle Earth and they have much to share and I have benefited from their knowledge that I have used to enhanced my own games immensely.

I have no doubt that TOR will be on the table at next year's TolkienMoot.

One such fellow is a poster on this board, a fine fellow called Osric who is knowledgeable in such lore, and has written many articles for OtherMindsMagazine, a free publication for and about gaming in Middle Earth.

Another poster here is Hawke, founding member of MERP.com and many other groups and lists than I can remember to recount here. These people live and breathe Middle Earth and it is no surprise they are here in this Forum.

For a great write up about Barrow Wights gleaned from Professor Tolkien's writings read this article;

Visit the link below and go to the DOWNLOADS tab and then get Other Minds Issue #1, and read "Of Barrow Wights" by Neville Percy

http://www.othermindsmagazine.com/

This is all interesting conjecture, but from which of Professor Tolkien's writings was it gleaned that Barrow Wrights and Nazgul were summoned by Melkor from the outer dark? I've never encountered anything the Prof wrote that said so. Do you have sources? For one thing, the Nazgul were created by Sauron in the Third Age, long after Melkor was cast out. I presume that you've never read the relevant writings in the volume Morgoth's Ring, then?


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Venger
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 10:53 PM
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I have only read the books, Hobbit, Lord of the Rings series and including Silmarillion and Lost Tales but none of the other source Tolkien materials.

I apologize if I am mistaken and have drawn these conclusions from a number of sources not necessarily by Tolkien himself.

I do not profess to be a scholar of Tolkien either, just a gamer who loves Middle Earth and all it's lore.

I have included "it is surmised" as these ideas being references extrapolated from bits and pieces I have read. I personally did not make any of this up and I feel my sources are reliable.

On any detail I posted here, I will gladly stand corrected if proven to the contrary


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Arandil
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 11:18 PM
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No need to apologize! This is a discussion board after all. But, I would encourage you to list your sources, and examine more. The claim of some kind of magic spirit gate in Angband is a new one to me. That sounds like D&D, which is fine, but it's not Middle Earth.

Feel free to put forth any conjecture you have, but show us where you got it from. wink.gif
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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE (Arandil @ Aug 17 2011, 03:18 AM)
That sounds like D&D, which is fine, but it's not Middle Earth.

rolleyes.gif

Wow, you are not pulling any punches are you. wink.gif


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Venger
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 11:36 PM
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Very good!

As for the spirit gate, well I haven't played D&D in so many years that I don't know the rules for 3.5, but a concept stuck in my mind, and may have been surmised to be some sort of portal or "way" into Middle Earth.

The idea is that these things came from some other place and were not present at the creation of the world in the Song of Illivatar from what I have gathered. This seems to infer there was some way in.

Most of these concepts come from reading fanzine publications dedicated to Tolkien's writings.
I will read over a couple I have in mind to see if I might have misread or somehow extrapolated the extrapolations!

After all I do have a very active imagination.

You yourself seem to be well versed in Tolkien lore to bring this to my attention. I will read your articles with interest.

Thanks!


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bbarlow
Posted: Aug 16 2011, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE (Venger @ Aug 17 2011, 02:16 AM)
Actually, in keeping with Professor Tolkien's vision of Barrow Wights, they are spirits that were summoned by Melkor from an outer world, utterly alien and devoid of life as we know it.

According to the Encyclopedia of Arda, this is patently incorrect. From the Encyclopedia:
QUOTE
Barrow Wight - Evil Spirits out of Angmar - Evil spirits sent to dwell in the Barrow-downs by the Witch-king of Angmar during his wars with the remnant of Arnor, and who remained there long after the realm of Angmar itself had vanished from the world.

Further, searching on Angmar reveals the following. Paragraph 5, last sentence:
QUOTE
It was during this time that evil spirits came out of Angmar into the western lands, and the burial mounds on the Barrow-downs became a place of horror and dread.

Again, though, just according to the Encyclopedia of Arda...

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Arandil
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 12:15 AM
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QUOTE (Skywalker @ Aug 16 2011, 07:36 PM)
QUOTE (Arandil @ Aug 17 2011, 03:18 AM)
That sounds like D&D, which is fine, but it's not Middle Earth.

rolleyes.gif

Wow, you are not pulling any punches are you. wink.gif

Someone please call me out if I sound like a railing curmudgeon ... sad.gif

I have no intention, nor ability, to be a Tolkien cop, mercy!

And D&D is OK, or w/e; I do have a soft spot for the original red and blue boxes myself, got me started and all. So, no offense beyond a bit of ribbing. Hearty ribbing. I might have liked it too.
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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 12:33 AM
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QUOTE (Arandil @ Aug 17 2011, 04:15 AM)
QUOTE (Skywalker @ Aug 16 2011, 07:36 PM)
QUOTE (Arandil @ Aug 17 2011, 03:18 AM)
That sounds like D&D, which is fine, but it's not Middle Earth.

rolleyes.gif

Wow, you are not pulling any punches are you. wink.gif

Someone please call me out if I sound like a railing curmudgeon ... sad.gif

I have no intention, nor ability, to be a Tolkien cop, mercy!

And D&D is OK, or w/e; I do have a soft spot for the original red and blue boxes myself, got me started and all. So, no offense beyond a bit of ribbing. Hearty ribbing. I might have liked it too.

Its cool. You made it clear you meant well. It was just combining the "its not ME" with "its like D&D" was like a binary explosive biggrin.gif


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Venger
  Posted: Aug 17 2011, 12:43 AM
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Here we go, I have found a couple of the references I have read and extrapolated from.

I re-emphasize... these are extrapolations of writings from the writer of a fantasy world and extrapolations of writings by his fans.

I am not trying to make anyone believe as I do, These concepts work for me and my gaming group and we have adopted them.

If you wish to debate Tolkien canon, then I urge you to take it up with someone more scholarly than I and had I known my posting would have raised such a debate I would have refrained.

These are from the Other Minds Magazine Issue #1 "Of Barrow Wights"
QUOTE

[i]Suggestions as to the nature of the Wightspirits include fallen maiar, corrupted ëalar or nature spirits, ‘Houseless’ Elves, or the souls of sorcerers or morgűl-stricken Men.

Though the wights were described as being sent from Angmar and Rhudaur, their primary existence seems to be in an ‘other world’ as hinted at by Tolkien’s use of metaphors of extreme distance.

This suggests them to be more alien than the souls of formerly incarnate Elves or
Men.

The same metaphors of remoteness are used of the speech of the Barrow-wight (discussed below), and correspond exactly to the metaphors used to describe Frodo’s voice whilst wearing the Ring.

The Wight-spirit is therefore clearly a being of the same “wraithworld” as the Nazgűl

Bombadil’s song sounds like an exorcism, but there is no suggestion of banishing the
Wight-spirit from the ‘Seen’ world of the here and now.

The song is one of driving away to other parts of Middle-earth, whereas the rightful place for an Elven or Mannish spirit to be sent would be the Halls of Mandos.

The offending spirit is also not destroyed but reduced to the same sort of futile impotence, as Tolkien described for Sauron after the destruction of the Ring


Here is a Tolkien Quote-

QUOTE
At that time many strange spirits fare into the world, for there were pleasant places dark and quiet for them to dwell in.
Some came from Mandos, aged spirits that journeyed from Ilúvatar with him
who are older than the world and very gloomy and secret, and some from the fortresses of the North where Melko then dwelt in the deep dungeons of Utumna.

Full of evil and unwholsome were they; luring and restlessness and horror they
brought, turning the dark into an ill and fearful thing, which it was not before.
[b]HoMe 1: The Chaining of Melko[b/]


-----------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE
Full of evil and unwholsome were they; luring and restlessness and horror they brought, turning the dark into an ill and fearful thing, which it was not before.


The "not before", meaning to me that they came out of Angband/Utumno but were not born of Illuvatar.

It is my understanding that Melkor didn't create anything, just perverted things. If he didn't create them they came from elsewhere.

QUOTE
The song is one of driving away to other parts of Middle-earth, whereas the rightful place for an Elven or Mannish spirit to be sent would be the Halls of Mandos.


This last quote, which is admittedly an extrapolation, specifically suggests to me and makes sense (as far as fantasy things go) that these wraith-spirits are from some other world.

Then I extrapolated that If they are from some other world, they got in some kind of way. I called it a gate. Maybe it was a wormhole, who knows right?

Which by the way, another time, not tonight, I will try to find the other extrapolations to the "way" having been destroyed with the destruction of Angband so that these spirits cannot be permanently banished. It sounded good to me...

Where do these things come from and how did they get into Middle Earth? It really doesn't matter.

Tolkien scholars debate these details and I am not even one of them.

So strike my original wordings suggesting a gate as that of a tired mind after a long day, just eager to share what he loves and enjoys.

And I want to add, I take no offense. And your questioning of my posts are justified

No Harm No Foul smile.gif


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Arandil
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 12:46 AM
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tongue.gif You should see what happens when I post about crossing Coyboy Beebop with Harn ...

jk
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Skywalker
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 12:55 AM
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QUOTE (Arandil @ Aug 17 2011, 04:46 AM)
tongue.gif You should see what happens when I post about crossing Coyboy Beebop with Harn ...

jk

Mind esplode!


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Arandil
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QUOTE (Venger @ Aug 16 2011, 08:43 PM)

Here we go, I have found a couple of the references I have read and extrapolated from.

I re-emphasize... these are extrapolations of writings from the writer of a fantasy world and extrapolations of writings by his fans.

I am not trying to make anyone believe as I do, These concepts work for me and my gaming group and we have adopted them.


Well, in that case, we'll just simply have to dip you in Nutella and toss you to the bears, sorry.

QUOTE
If you wish to debate Tolkien canon, then I urge you to take it up with someone more scholarly than I and had I known my posting would have raised such a debate I would have refrained.


Debate? Oh come now, my good fellow, that was merely a cogitation, barely the whiff of a tiff! And please don't hold back, there's no need to take me more seriously than I do. Imagine that I'm wearing a tutu and Mickey Mouse hat, that always works for me.

QUOTE

[i]Suggestions as to the nature of the Wightspirits include fallen maiar, corrupted ëalar or nature spirits, ‘Houseless’ Elves, or the souls of sorcerers or morgűl-stricken Men.

Though the wights were described as being sent from Angmar and Rhudaur, their primary existence seems to be in an ‘other world’ as hinted at by Tolkien’s use of metaphors of extreme distance.

This suggests them to be more alien than the souls of formerly incarnate Elves or
Men.


Inferring that Tolkien's metaphors of extreme distance somehow imply that the Barrow Wights were from an "other world" is a stretch. There's no reason that this interpretation is any more likely than an interpretation where Tolkien was simply using a writing device to suggest creepiness from a character's limited point of view.

This "other world" is actually the spirit "world" within Middle Earth itself, the same spirit world that Glorfindel shone brightly in at the Ford of Bruinen when Frodo was so far gone over to the spirit world himself that he was seeing the spirit world more than the physical world.

I won't quote any further from the essays in Morgoth's Ring because I pasted practically all of the relevant bits further back in this same thread. Simply pop back and give them a (another?) read, if you want to know what my sources are.

QUOTE
The same metaphors of remoteness are used of the speech of the Barrow-wight (discussed below), and correspond exactly to the metaphors used to describe Frodo’s voice whilst wearing the Ring.

The Wight-spirit is therefore clearly a being of the same “wraithworld” as the Nazgűl


And if the Wraiths are Men whose bodies have been shifted into the intangible spirit world as a way to circumvent their fate to die of old age, then of course the Wights (being spirits themselves) are of the same world. This 'wraithworld' isn't another world apart from the spirit world of ME, as Frodo could see Glorfindel's shining form as strongly as he could see the Wraiths.

This stuff is the personal interpretation and conjecture of the article's author, which is fine, but it's far from being the only or necessarily the most likely interpretation, considering everything that Tolkien wrote.

Tolkien also wrote that Men's spirits were both weaker in power and harder to bind than Elven spirits. Elven spirits could use magic and posses bodies, even going so far as to eject someone's spirit from their own body! (again, see the essays in Morgoth's Ring, I posted much of it earlier in this thread).

QUOTE
Bombadil’s song sounds like an exorcism, but there is no suggestion of banishing the Wight-spirit from the ‘Seen’ world of the here and now.

The song is one of driving away to other parts of Middle-earth, whereas the rightful place for an Elven or Mannish spirit to be sent would be the Halls of Mandos.

The offending spirit is also not destroyed but reduced to the same sort of futile impotence, as Tolkien described for Sauron after the destruction of the Ring


Tolkien indicates in Morgoth's Ring that Elven spirits can choose to refuse the summons of Mandos, but could be bound by Necromancy. He also states that Necromancy is the art of forcing spirits to one's will and is thereby an inherently corrupt practice. I don't believe that Bombadil would go so far as to force a spirit to any particular place, that isn't his right, but it would seem acceptable that he would undo the corrupt binding that held a spirit in the barrow, leaving it to its own meager devices after that.

Such corrupted spirits, once released, would be pretty unlikely to go back to Mandos on their own, and it would be corrupt of Bombadil (or anyone) to force them to, even Mandos/Namo himself does not do that! The only place they can go is somewhere else in Middle Earth, unless summoned by Sauron or the Witch-King again. As Tolkien also stated in Morgoth's Ring, the longer a fell spirit is housed within a form, the weaker they become once unhoused, and so Bombadil wasn't himself reducing the spirit's power, that would happen as a by-product of being ejected from the form it had been housed in for so long.

If you think it's fun to use the interpretation from the OH article, go for it! It's your Middle Earth in your game. But that interpretation relies upon too much conjecture to be authoritative, and doesn't seem to fully or correctly incorporate Tolkien's thoughts in Morgoth's Ring (which may or may not have even been published at the time that the article was written, I don't recall offhand).

And get off my lawn!
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Arandil
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 01:36 AM
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BTW, I'm just going to pretend that you didn't actually say "wormhole" in a Middle Earth discussion. ph34r.gif
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Venger
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 08:54 AM
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QUOTE
That sounds like D&D, which is fine, but it's not Middle Earth.


QUOTE
Well, in that case, we'll just simply have to dip you in Nutella and toss you to the bears, sorry


QUOTE
Debate? Oh come now, my good fellow, that was merely a cogitation, barely the whiff of a tiff! And please don't hold back, there's no need to take me more seriously than I do. Imagine that I'm wearing a tutu and Mickey Mouse hat, that always works for me.


QUOTE
BTW, I'm just going to pretend that you didn't actually say "wormhole" in a Middle Earth


QUOTE
And get off my lawn!


Arandil I ackowledge that for all you may know concerning the topic, were it not for rudeness and arrogance one might think you were a person of substance. Humility is a virtue obviously not held in high esteem.

Pardon me for venturing out on "your" lawn




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GhostWolf69
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 08:58 AM
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Was I the only one reading heartfelt irony and giggles into Arandil's post?
I think (thought) there was a lot of humour in there and smiled while reading.

/wolf


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eldath
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 09:00 AM
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No, you weren't wolf.

E
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Venger
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 09:05 AM
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I truly meant no contraversy when I posted friends.

I offered a different point of view about something we hold dear.

I would say these postings agreed more than disagreed and furthermore much good information was brought forth.


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Posted: Aug 17 2011, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE (eldath @ Aug 17 2011, 01:00 PM)
No, you weren't wolf.

E

Good. Just checking. Since English is not my first language, sometimes I have to double check so I don't miss something obvious. Like say... thinking someone is making an honest attempt at a joke when he's actually just being a prick.

... but I guess it can sometimes be both.

/wolf


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Venger
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE
Good. Just checking. Since English is not my first language, sometimes I have to double check so I don't miss something obvious. Like say... thinking someone is making an honest attempt at a joke when he's actually just being a prick.

... but I guess it can sometimes be both.



I don't know anyone on this forum yet.
If Aradil's comments (other than the excellent presentations on Middle Earth) were jokes meant to be-humor, or be-little, I couldn't really tell without knowing more of the person behind the comments.




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Posted: Aug 17 2011, 10:13 AM
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QUOTE (Venger @ Aug 17 2011, 02:01 PM)
If Aradil's comments (other than the excellent presentations on Middle Earth) were jokes meant to be-humor, or be-little, I couldn't really tell without knowing more of the person behind the comments.

Understandable.

I just tend to read things with a positive eye and try to think the best of people. Even ones I don't know I try to give the benefit of the doubt since I like to believe there is hope for human kind.

But I could of course be wrong and I understand your sentiment.

/wolf


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Venger
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 10:16 AM
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So, back to the subject of Barrow Wights....

I have not completly gone through all of TOR in the few days I have had it.

If you had to make up a Barrow Wight for an ongoing campaign you might try to convert to TOR, given the rules, excepting any house rules, what might one look like in TOR terms?



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Posted: Aug 17 2011, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE
Understandable.

I just tend to read things with a positive eye and try to think the best of people. Even ones I don't know I try to give the benefit of the doubt since I like to believe there is hope for human kind.

But I could of course be wrong and I understand your sentiment.

/wolf


I agree Wolf.
I pass it on as we having a real fiery passion for this stuff. It's all good.

Arandil I might have misunderstood your intention. I enjoyed the information it brought us.
Thanks


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Posted: Aug 17 2011, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE (Venger @ Aug 17 2011, 06:20 AM)
QUOTE
Understandable.

I just tend to read things with a positive eye and try to think the best of people. Even ones I don't know I try to give the benefit of the doubt since I like to believe there is hope for human kind.

But I could of course be wrong and I understand your sentiment.

/wolf


I agree Wolf.
I pass it on as we having a real fiery passion for this stuff. It's all good.

Arandil I might have misunderstood your intention. I enjoyed the information it brought us.
Thanks

Venger! Mellon! Please don't be offended! I was hoping that the tutu and Mickey Mouse hat gave me away, I was not at all giving you a hard time, Wolf has it right. Please enjoy the discussion, it was meant to be enjoyable!
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Posted: Aug 17 2011, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE
Venger! Mellon! Please don't be offended! I was hoping that the tutu and Mickey Mouse hat gave me away, I was not at all giving you a hard time, Wolf has it right. Please enjoy the discussion, it was meant to be enjoyable!


Very good, all is well, I'm not offended, just had my feathers ruffled a bit because I misunderstood

I recant my previous statement about arrogance/rudeness and look forward to more good discussions


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Posted: Aug 17 2011, 04:52 PM
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Okay...soo...back to monsters.

Anyone actually working on statting any other types out?


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Arandil
Posted: Aug 18 2011, 05:24 AM
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QUOTE (Venger @ Aug 17 2011, 06:16 AM)
So, back to the subject of Barrow Wights....

I have not completly gone through all of TOR in the few days I have had it.

If you had to make up a Barrow Wight for an ongoing campaign you might try to convert to TOR, given the rules, excepting any house rules, what might one look like in TOR terms?

Good question!

I'm going to give a long and probably meandering answer. Here's how I'd go about it, but I'm not recommending it to anyone.

First, I'll hit the source, scoping for clues. Then I'll lay out assumptions, referring to associated text from the Professor (like essays, etc.). Then I'll scope TOR for stuff I can use. Then I'll attempt to stat a barrow wight. All throughout, I'll ramble on and on about sundry, most likely.

Scoping text for clues:
In 'Fog on the Barrow Downs', the hobbits picnic at a standing stone on the edge of the barrow downs. They fall asleep, though they didn't mean to. Now, they'd been walking all day and had a nice picnic in the sun. So, they could have just naturally fallen asleep, but what a coincidence. When they awoke and came to, the hobbits, and their ponies, were notably disquieted. Tolkien wrote "They felt as if a trap was closing about them,..." Perhaps there was enchantment involved, either in the place, or a spell of the wights cast upon them as they rested. Nothing conclusive, but I'll keep it on the side to consider.

The area about the barrows was cloaked with fog and very cold. Now, since this was autumn, again, this could be entirely natural. However, it could also be another subtle hint that there's something enchanted about the place, or perhaps the wights can influence their environment in subtle ways. Again, nothing conclusive, keep on the side to consider.

As they try to make their way out of the downs, there's an interesting bit w/Frodo:
QUOTE
The dark patches grew darker, but they shrank; and suddenly he saw, towering ominous before him and leaning slightly towards one another like the pillars of a headless door, two huge standing stones. He could not remember having seen any sign of these in the valley, when he looked out from the hill in the morning. He had passed between them almost before he was aware;and even as he did so darkness seemed to fall round him. His pony reared and snorted, and he fell off.

Yet another suggestion of some subtle enchantment in the area. Again, nothing conclusive, very subtle. But by this point in the chapter, there's obviously something subtle and sinister going on in the area. Nothing totally unnatural, but seemingly natural phenomena pushed to an extraordinary extent. Again, nothing conclusive here, but there's a nice stack of stuff about the eerie and possibly supernatural environment of the barrow downs off to the side now.

It's also at this point that Frodo realizes that he somehow got separated from the others, even though all of the hobbits (and their ponies!) had attempted to stay close together. In fact, he was so far separated from his companions that, when he ran off calling out for them, he heard only the faintest suggestion of answering cries. That's kind of odd. He climbs a steep slope chasing the cries of his lost companions, and ends up at the top of a barrow hill. There, the wind picks up and packs an icy chill, and then Frodo meets a barrow wight.
QUOTE
'His knees gave, and he fell on the ground. Nothing happened, and there was no sound. Trembling he looked up, in time to see a tall dark figure like a shadow against the stars. It leaned over him. He thought there were two eyes, very cold though lit with a pale light that seemed to come from some remote distance. Then a grip stronger and colder than iron seized him. The icy touch froze his bones, and he remembered no more.

OK! So now we get some useful description of a wight. They have a strong grip, that's for certain. Now, did Frodo simply faint when he was grabbed? Or was that something that the wight did to him with his touch, wittingly or unwittingly? Frodo wakes up in the barrow:
QUOTE
A Barrow-wight had taken him, and he was probably already under the dreadful spells of the Barrow-wights about which whispered tales spoke.

Dreadful spells! That sounds like fun. Another item for the inventory. And possibly something we could use to explain the odd events that transpired, along with Frodo's 'fainting' at the touch of the wight.

As Frodo is lying on a cold flat stone in the barrow, he notes a growing pale greenish light, seeming to emanate from himself and the floor around him. Strange. Beside him were the other three hobbits, in a deep sleep. I'm just going to come right out and say that this seems to be an enchanted sleep. They didn't wake up until Tom Bombadil later sang a song (spell) to awaken them. If Frodo had fallen under the same sort of spell when the wight first seized him, perhaps it was only the One Ring that Frodo bore which gave him the ability to wake up a bit early on his own. Pure conjecture, but not outside the scope of Gandalf's hints about the Ring increasing the inherent power(s) of its bearer.

The Barrow-wight begins to sing in the darkness:
QUOTE
Suddenly a song began: a cold murmur, rising and falling. The voice seemed far away and immeasurably dreary, sometimes high in the air and thin, sometimes like a low moan from the ground. OUt of the formless stream of sad but horrible sounds, strings of words would now and again shape themselves: grim, hard, cold words, heartless and miserable. The night was railing against the morning of which it was bereaved, and the cold was cursing the warmth for which it hungered. Frodo was chilled to the marrow. After a while the song became clearer, and with dread in his heart he perceived that it had changed into an incantation:

As the wight was chanting, it was also moving its hand toward the hilt of a sword laying over the necks of the three hobbits laid out on the floor beside Frodo. All of the hobbits were dressed up in robes and wearing circlets, their hands upon their breats, everything seemd very ritualized. Whatever this incantation was, it wasn't something that directly affected Frodo. Rather, this incantation seemed to be a curse upon the hobbits, that they should lie in the barrow until the world ends. Of course, the wight could have just been referring its intentions of killing them and leaving them dead in the barrow, but it could have done that with the sword, easily enough, without all of the ritual. Perhaps it was a Necromatic ritual of some kind, to curse the spirits of the hobbits and trap them in the barrow? That's not utterly contrary to Tolkien's own descriptions of Necromancy, but I'll still leave it as conjecture for now.

Whatever the ritual might have signified, Frodo wasn't apparently inhibited by anything other than his own fear, which he acted in spite of by taking up a short sword and hacking the wight's hand off. He later thought he saw the severed hand wriggling about 'like a wounded spider'. Creepy. Noted.

After saving the hobbits, gathering up their lost ponies and sharing a lovely little meal, Tom Bombadil laid out the treasures from the barrow:
QUOTE
'free to all finders, birds, beasts, Elves or Men, and all kindly creatures'; for so the spell of the mound should be broken and scattered and no Wight ever come back to it.

So, another(?) Wight could have come and haunted the barrow if Tom hadn't broken the barrow's spell. Interesting. This implies that the wights are bound to the barrows themselves, to the place.

Well, that's a start now certainly. I'll take a break from my musing and come back to it, probably tomorrow, after I scour some other texts.

Cheers
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Venger
Posted: Aug 18 2011, 12:13 PM
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Very interesting and well dissected. By the way I love conjecture, extrapolation, surmising and all that stuff is goooood... weave on friend

The professor left us plenty of room for it.. Other minds, other hands.. thats us!

QUOTE
I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths - which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. ... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."


By the way, It's the "large and cosmogonic" idea that prompted my "wormhole" comment LOL

I am just thinking (in text) out loud here,

So we are looking at some possibilities but few hard and true references by Tolkien to magical or supernatural effects that could be translated into gaming terms and hard numbers, or some of them are so subtle as to be questioned whether Frodo actually perceived them.

You have a lot of ground covered with several (canon text inferred but not quantized) possible supernatural effects in play, excellent work

(i'm extrapolating again- sincerely beg your pardon it gets me into trouble sometimes ;-) )

Effects might be; fog, cold, altered perspectives, unseen mazes, sleep, fear, a luring enchantment, light, (a pale greenish light, creepy visual effect, but why? the wight might need light to see by?)

A tall order smaking of great power. I think Barrow Wights are underrated in most gaming systems. This one needs to be played as if it were a dragon IMHO, the LM will just have to keep a "Tom Bombadil" in his back pocket just in case things go arwy...

Can we assume the wight's purpose is to expend all this power with some sort of ritual as the climax of all this expenditure of power? A sacrifice to a higher power? Or something more "personal" to the wight?
Does it need to feed? or perhaps sustain the power investment in the Barrow?

But why bother with four measly hobbits and a couple of packies? Seems like slim pickings, but I am guessing the Barrow Downs might be a fairly avoided place, and a poor Barrow Wight must take what it can get tongue.gif (what do they eat when they can't get hobbit? lol)

Or maybe hobbits are made of stronger stuff than assumed.

As for the Barrow itself, I'm assuming that the wight's power is invested and arises from the Barrow, surmising from Tom Bombadil's actions, items needed to be disbursed widely afield to prevent it, or another one from assuming the investment

This extrapolates (possibly) that the Barrow itself is the key to the wight's power. So could a richer or poorer Barrow directly affect the wight's total power capabilities?
(in gaming terms, more powerful wight = bigger rewards)

I really like your idea that The One Ring mitigated Frodo's circumstances, otherwise his saga might have eneded up being a short story!

Well done, I look forward to reading what comes next


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You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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