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Osric |
Posted: Aug 18 2011, 05:49 PM
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Apologies to caul, but as the author of the original Other Minds article, I can clear up a couple of things here! This is late coming because my broadband died the first time I composed it. But I've edited the quotes down and been as brief myself as I could. ![]()
This is the interpretation I intended. The reference to an "other world" (borrowing Tolkien's own usage) was not to any place outside of Arda, but to the "Unseen" spirit world or "wraith-world" that exists in the same space and time as the "Seen" in which the normal denizens of Middle-earth operate. There remains an issue that Tolkien referred to "other worlds", plural, but then only ever presented us with one such other world: the "wraith-world". The other "other worlds" are therefore one of Tolkien's famous 'lacunae', which are inviting territory for fan-fiction authors, game designers and GMs/LMs alike. But in this case Tolkien gives us absolutely no starting point from which to extrapolate, so any attempt to do so would have to be pure invention, and IMHO that's almost always a step too far.
Again, I originally cited the Bombadil's song as evidence that everything was happening within Middle-earth, albeit in the "wraith-world". The "metaphors of extreme distance" were something that just struck me when I was reading and re-reading the passage to compose my article. Tolkien did seem to be very consistent in his uses of them, which means we should definitely be able to infer something from that usage, including possibly if they're used in other contexts. But the emphasis should be on the fact that they're metaphors, i.e. that it isn't really distance but something outside the vocabulary of the normal languages of Men. (The Quenya of those High Elves who live at once in both the Seen and the Unseen worlds presumably does have the vocabulary for it.) I love to engage in the 'game' of inference and interpolation, to figure out what we (LMs) can about Tolkien's sub-creation -- to 'catch up' with him on aspects of his mastery he never made fully explicit, or possibly even to figure out things beyond what he himself consciously put his finger on. The more lore we can get on his monsters, the more interesting things we can do with them for our players. TOR, in the Slayer calling's specialist Trait of 'Enemy Lore', directly encourages player knowledge of monsters, and the more tangible facts we have to share with them to spotlight this, the better. But for Barrow-wights and other monsters which present horror-genre elements for the game, the PCs should never be allowed to feel that they know all there is to know about them. They must never become overfamiliar or predictable, 'cookie-cutter' monsters like Arandil described. If an LM thinks there's a danger of this happening then he needs to throw in something unpredicted. IMHO the need to prevent a sense of overfamiliarity in such a group, outweighs even the need to remain within canon. Cheers, --Os. -------------------- The Treasure of the House of Dathrin - Actual Play of original material in HârnMaster, 2008
The Rescue of Framleiđandi – Actual Play of The Marsh Bell as adapted for use in this campaign. A Murder of Gorcrows - Actual Play of original material. (last entry 20 Feb 2013) www.othermindsmagazine.com – a free international journal for scholarly and gaming interests in JRR Tolkien's Middle-earth |
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 19 2011, 05:15 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 42 Member No.: 1739 Joined: 3-August 11 ![]() |
Hazzah!
HAHA! Ok, now I forgive you. ![]()
Thank you! Oh, no worries, I'll just put the tutu and Mickey Mouse hat back on, that's when you know you're in trouble. But you're contributing good stuff to the discussion, no one should have any reason to complain!
Yeah, I don't know about the green light. OK, so, from an author's standpoint, he wanted the character to see what was going on, so he put in some creepy light. But he still had to choose something that made sense to him, and somehow this green light makes sense. Since the light did not emite just from Frodo, but from the floor around him, I would rule out that the Ring somehow did this. That's not supported anywhere else in the story anyway. As the light seems to coincide with the wight beginning his ritual, it seems reasonable that there's a connection there. That's as good an explanation as any we're going to get or invent, I suppose. I agree that the apparent enchantment of the environment of Barrow Downs is something significant. It's notable that the Witch-king sent spirits to haunt the place, specifically. Given what Tolkien has written about fell spirits in ME, I think that it's possible to consider the entire place haunted, not just the barrows themselves. But since Tolkien seemed to specifically mention 'the deserted mounds' as the place the spirits were sent to haunt, then it may be more likely that, over time, the Wights extended their will over the entire downs. Which makes me consider something else that I hadn't really thought of before. How did the Wights know that the hobbits were around in the first place? Did they hear them having their picnic on the border of the downs? Were they peeking out of little peep holes? I think that's unlikely. Given that they're essentially unhoused spirits bound into the barrows via Necromancy, it seems more likely they their perceptions are not bound by physical restraints. Like the Ringwraiths, perhaps they could sense the spirits of the hobbits without any regard for the physical barriers of stone and earth that comprised the barrows.
Yes! Apparently, Tolkien even likened the Ringwraiths to the Barrow-Wights in his mind, initially, considering them alike, which in a sense, they were.
Good question. Without an obivious answer, I think that it could be played both ways, and within the context of playing an rpg, might even be best to leave it ambiguous on purpose, as it's all the same to the characters in the end. Other possibilities might include that the Wight was seeking to enslave the spirits of the hobbits to his own thrall as he was enthralled by the Witch-King.
A very interesting thought. There's certainly a connection. From Tolkien's description of fell spirits and Necromancy, such spirits can possess a living body, certainly, but also haunt a place. The longer a spirit dwells in something, and the more will it expends to its desires and purposes there, the more fixed a spirit is to their 'house' and the weaker they are once they lose it. So, for the Wights, this would be a double-edged sword. Over time, they would garner more power over the Barrow Downs, but would also become more tied to the place, and more powerless if unhoused from it. Perhaps by scattering the contents of a barrow, it becomes more difficult for a Wight to re-house itself there, as there is no longer any 'there' there, so to speak. The scattered contents of a barrow become part of their new disparate places. This is just theory mind you, and some significant extrapolation on my part. I'm not sure that their power would necessarily stem from more valuable wealth, in and of itself, but Tolkien did hint that gold, as a substance, was more tainted by Morgoth's will than other matter, and this may be related to their attachment to it.
Right on! I didn't get back at this until late, and 'm still re-reading some material, but I'll continue the exploration soon. Cheers! |
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 19 2011, 06:38 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 42 Member No.: 1739 Joined: 3-August 11 ![]() |
Aha! Then I think we're entirely in accord here. Yes, Tolkien intended 'gaps' for the reader to fill in; a necessary part of the fairy tale experience that he envisioned readers to willingly partake and engage in. I also agree that we do have to be careful not to assume too much of our own interpretation as objective or concrete fact in his fiction, but I think having our own personal 'facts' is part of what he was going for, in the way that you're implying.
Yes, that's all clear now. I think that you can look at what he wrote from the perspective of 'writing device', in the sense that he's trying to convey a sense of something in words that isn't readily described. But he also made very concious choices on how to convey the information, and so there must be clues about the setting in how he chose to imply it. In the case of the 'distance' metaphor here, yes, I believe that he's attempting to convey that these are essentially evil spirits, not really 'there' the same way that hobbits and ponies are, but also that their minds and thoughts are far removed from mortal persons. I think he's trying to convey the sense of more than one specific notion at the same time, as it were. And it was great atmosphere too!
Well put! I couldn't agree with you more. For all that Middle Earth seems so fully detailed, he really left a lot for us to wonder about. And our unconcious is always involved in what we do, especially in art, I think.
Agree! By definition, I think, any ME rpg is necessarily outside canon simply by virtue of bringing the player characters into the setting. I think there's plenty of room for our own elaborations, Tolkien left a lot of room for that, but he also gave us an extraordinary body of knowledge about the setting which can be leveraged to make our elaborations fit the place. I'd actually advocate keeping any essentially supernatural adversary in ME unique, in extents of motive, personality and specific capabilities. Barrow-Wights, for example, aren't really a 'breed' of some kind, unlike wolves or orcs, at least not in the same sense. They're fell spirits who happen to haunt those particular barrows. Presumably, they'd take on some aspects of the place they haunt, and they'd have some aspects in common with each other, and other fell spirits so bound, elsewhere. All well and good, but I suppose that still leaves us with the issue of statting them out somehow in TOR terms. I'm wondering if there's a practical way to describe them in TOR game terms while explicitly leaving some room for personalization and elaboration in the 'mold', so to speak. Cheers! |
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 19 2011, 09:14 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
I read Lord of the Rings for the first time in 1975.
The first reading painted a picture for me and I understood what I did of it, and admittedly at the time, that wasn't very much. But it broadened my imagination by leaps and bounds. I was into High Adventure and consumed many artist's works. I had no clue what an RPG game was but one thing was clear, I loved adventure. Then every several years I would read Tolkien again, and new parts would be added to the painting, new colors and landscapes I had not noticed before. And with each subsequent reading more unfolded. It like as my mind evolved, my understanding, or rather my scope of reasoning did as well and more of the story was uncovered in the words that had always been there. It was when I read The Silmarillion in 1987 that the depth of Middle Earth began to be realized and by then my AD&D campaigns were already infused with Tolkien lore. It was about that time I found ICE MERP and from that point, I realize now that I became more than just a fan of Tolkien. My friends I am sure dreaded me going on and on about Middle Earth lol but I eventually dragged them kicking and screaming into it It has been ten years or better since my last serious re-read and that's due to some changes in my life have kept me off balance. But I have been picking up tidbits here and there, mostly from the MERP.com group, and doing research for my campaigns and here today new enlightenment continues in these discussions. I had no clue until getting involved with MERP.com just how extensive Tolkien's writings were, and frankly I still do not since I have not read all of his dissertations. So to read all of this is really fascinating for me. And I am due for another re-read of Lord of the Rings... oh imagine the new vistas in those old words awaiting me now!! This is a thread about monsters for a game. Our discussion here on Barrow Wights on a topic that covers one chapter in an amazing saga. I see I am not the only one with a passion for this stuff, And I'm glad to be able to partake of it, and thank you fellows for sharing your lore and passing it on to fellows like me who had had only glimpses into a wider world -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 19 2011, 10:00 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
I absolutely agree on this point. There is only one Barrow Wight I have ever read of in all the tales of Professor Tolkien, though I have not been privy to all his works. Much weight must be given to it. It would be troubling to see this new game system, one which is supposed to take us beyond the realm of mere stat crunching to have one of the more horrifying of the professor's creations rendered down to mere stats... however being a game we do need stats. And by the same token I understand about keeping such a creature unspecific in some areas to maintain the air of mystery. I am putting forth a bunch of what-if in this post so bear with me, I'm just throwing out thoughts and ideas. I do not yet fully understand about monsters since I have not even cracked the LMB yet. So I do not know if stats on them are similar to a Hero or not. But I envision such a creature might have characteristics of an NPC. What if we were to start with Traits common to such spirits, with max Shadow and no Hope with that somehow adding to the strengths of such a fiend? Something more than a bag of points to whittle down in melee. It begs the question whether melee would even come into play at all, it might take wits and heart and song to defeat a Wight period. What if the Hero's were to manage to raise the Hopes of such a forlorn thing, would it dispel the creature? I would not think melee would be the answer in this case. After all Frodo chopped off one's hand to whatever unknown effect on the Barrow Wight and you know the rest of the story. IMHO To make the scenario convincing for the players the LM would take on the persona of the Wight, and partake in the "Plight of the Wight" That sounds twisted I know. But its the only way I personally can role play something like this. I have to BE it to play it, like an actor who takes on a role, I imagine that's how I would approach it. Or does this game keep the LM out of the role play mode and in story-telling mode? Should the LM merely set the stage? Or does he/she become an active part of the tale? If so I would need to know traits, could it be an NPC instead of just another monster?, with motivations and perhaps even doubts and fears of their own. A Barrow Wight might avoid an encounter against powerful enemies especially if they have senses beyond the physical. What a pain in the arsh that would be to a company of heroes trying to unhouse a stubborn Wight that was wreaking havok in the Barrows near some town. ( I can't imagine being able to provide enough hoover power, no not even a Dyson would suck any of my players into going out to the barrow downs to provoke a Barrow Wight so I would need some plot device like this to make it work LOL) What does a Hero do in such a situation when a barrow Wight won't stand up and fight like a man? How long might you guess a Barrow Wight could lay there unmoving like a corpse? I think they would be pretty good at that! What does a Hero do? Hack all the interred corpses to pieces and scatter them about for the crows to pick at? Do you plunder the sacred burial mounds of the rightful possessions of the dead just because you "think" it's the right thing to do to win because they might have heard it in some old wives tale? This ain't yer daddy's D&D we are talking about, imagine the Hope and Shadow toll it would take to accomplish this. Surely with any form of intelligence a Barrow Wight would know the anguish of being detached from whatever it is that they want or need and would take whatever measure they needed to in order to maintain their investment, plus it is a common thread in Tolkien's writings, even Sauron had his fears, and for good reason. Who knows how many long years, indeed even centuries, it had occupied that Barrow. Imagine that Barrow Wight's surprise when Tom Bombadil came along just about the time it was about to score some booty (I will leave that alone now). LM's need to know traits and these things not for the benefit of revealing these things to the players, but for use in setting the stage and plotting the story around this Wight so the LM can tell the chilling tale, and involve and find ways to invest the players in the situation. So I wonder if this might mean coming up with new traits, traits suitable to those who walk in Shadow? -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 21 2011, 05:49 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 42 Member No.: 1739 Joined: 3-August 11 ![]() |
Wow, Venger, good stuff! My Internet was down yesterday, and I'm off to bed now, but I definitely want to respond to your thoughtful post tomorrow. Cheers
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 21 2011, 12:20 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
I look forward to your thoughts Arandil
-------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 21 2011, 12:42 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
Sooooo... since we are on the topic of monsters here I go surmising and extrapolating again... and this one is just for fun!
I have had some naughty thoughts regarding Barrow Wights of late, perhaps I have been a GM too long! I read somewhere, not sure where or who wrote it, but they suggested A Barrow Wight can posses "the living" In my previous post I mentioned crows picking at hewn up pieces of corpses. What if the Barrow Wight ended up possessing the crows?!? Would give a whole new meaning to "A Murder of Crows" now wouldn't it! muuhaaahh btw- Crebain come to mind... but I know little of them actually except what I read in LOTR where Saruman used them as spies. -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 22 2011, 09:26 PM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 42 Member No.: 1739 Joined: 3-August 11 ![]() |
Oh, by unique I meant "individual variation". I'm confident that a number of fell spirits haunt the Barrow Downs, but my point was that while they may all have a similar foundation, they shouldn't be identical in every respect. Of course, when you go to stat up Barrow Wights, there's the issue of how to convey this.
That's a lot like the adversaries work, but instead of Hope and Shadow Points, adversaries simply have a single stat, Hate, that works - mechanically - a lot like Hope does. Adversaries spend Hate points to invoke their special abilities, etc. I agree that we should start with common traits for fell spirits like the Barrow-Wights. As Barrow-Wights are a subset, in effect, of the 'genus' of fell spirits, there's actually two tiers of common traits to consider. This is where I'm currently putting the most thought.
I believe that it's too late for that! Overcoming centuries of existing as a hateful spirit under the thrall of the Shadow is probably no simple task. I would think that Bombadil would not mind if a Wight, once freed of their haunt, would retire to Mandos to face its fate there, but he didn't seem to even include that possibility. It may be too late for such creatures, but perhaps someone with a gift of song and Art approaching that of Finrod might do it. I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of redemption for a Wight, but it would be a very, very uphill battle, I think.
The Wight that assailed Frodo was certainly tangible enough, but I see your point. Sure, you can hack up the body they posses, but this may only limit them (and perhaps only temporarily, until they possess a new body from the barrows). I like what you're saying about Heart (and I'd also say, Hope, Valour and Wisdom). Hmmm, there's probably room to consider what weight these PC attributes bear against the Wights' special abilities. *happily noted*
This is role play! Do your thing, man. If it creeps out your players (but not so much that they don't come back!) then I'd say, play it up. And when they get to Rivendell or Bree or whatever, after their travails, I'd say play up the good folk there too.
I'd say yes, you could play it like that, but a Wight would appear to be a very limited NPC. Their world view seems very limited. All they've been doing for the past few hundreds of years (and for all we know, maybe even hundreds of years before they were even bound into the barrows) is haunting the same place, with nothing other than a spirit's perceptions of the world around it (think of the 'wraith world' from the films, that was aptly played by Jackson and Co.) Such a persona would have little memory of what it was like to be alive, really, and would probably be effectively rather insane.
I think they'd probably retreat into the spirit world/'wraithworld' as far as they could if anyone like a Glorfindel came around. Short of some folk of that stature, I doubt they have much to fear of anyone.
If a Wight isn't fighting a PC straight up, then that Wight is probably weaving some nasty spells of despair and misdirection, along with his fellow Wights, if need be! I think that any PC short of the very Wise would be at risk of falling under wicked sorcery if they tarried in the Barrow-Downs too long; at night that is. The day seems to be the safest time to travel the downs, but I wouldn't exactly consider that 'safe', really.
From the text we have, yeah, pretty much. Some high rank (and very old) Elves may be able to work the same sort of counter spells that Bombadil did, or their own equivalents. I think that banishing the spirits from the downs entirely would be a feat for someone like a Finrod or Luthien; someone more powerful than the Witch-King at least!
Agree! I was thinking the same thing.
Yes, I think that new special abilities/traits are in the offing here, certainly. There appear to be a handful of ideas in the LG that might fit, or at least serve as templates. Good to have the conversation here! I'm still researching and working on ideas, I'll certainly post what I come up with here, before too long. Cheers |
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 23 2011, 02:53 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
I could add no more without creating distraction.
It will be interesting to read the results of this discussion. Namarie!! -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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JamesRBrown |
Posted: Aug 24 2011, 03:43 AM
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![]() Group: TOR index group Posts: 616 Member No.: 1729 Joined: 31-July 11 ![]() |
I got Dropbox up and running and I thought I would share the file I created of all the monsters listed in the Loremaster's Book.
I found that copying and pasting from the PDF of the Loremaster's Book does not produce great quality. So, I am offering two links to my document. The first one is a PDF version that you can cut and paste from: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39184129/TOR%20Shared/Shadow.pdf And the second one is an .odt file made in OpenOffice that you can edit (but you will need to make sure you have the Ardagh and Alois fonts installed). You should be able to open it in Microsoft Word too, but I cannot guarantee it will look right: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39184129/TOR%20Shared/Shadow.odt I use the document during games to easily reference and keep track of stats. I also made it so that when I write my adventures I can easily copy the monster stats without having to re-type everything from scratch. Enjoy. -------------------- Please visit my blog, Advancement Points: The One Ring Files, for my TOR Resources
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 24 2011, 08:50 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
Thanks JamesRBrown
-------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Garbar |
Posted: Aug 26 2011, 02:48 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 407 Member No.: 1772 Joined: 8-August 11 ![]() |
There have been so many variations of Orc in the countless fantasy games and fiction that I've played and read over the years, that I can't remember if orcs can see in total darkness.
Do orcs need light to see? Or do they have some sort of darkvision? I don't think dwarves can see in total darkness. Can they? |
Venger |
Posted: Aug 26 2011, 03:22 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
Hello,
That question has brought about quite a bit of debate in other forums. If you follow Tolkien, and Tolkien Scholars correct me if I am wrong, Elves were the only race privileged to have extraordinary vision, with the ability to see at night under the stars as good as that of a man during the day. But not darkvision. I do not think Tolkien made any references to Orcs having exceptional vision, nor dwarves for that matter that I am aware of. There are others on this forum who can further "illuminate", forgive the pun I couldn't help it!! Can it also be surmised that since Orcs were derived from Elves corrupted by Morgoth, perhaps they had similar vision to ?Elves? Surmising dwarves constructed shafts from their subterranean chambers up to the outside to catch sunlight during the day would lead me to think they needed illumination. Constructing those would have been costly and time consuming so the effort must have been a necessity. This is purely extrapolation but there has been some debate that a race born to and subject to nearly constant darkness might have evolved some characteristics that allow them to find their way around dark places better, with keener hearing or the ability to sense their surroundings in very dim lighting but there are no support writings by Tolkien to this effect that I am aware of. Bilbo had to grope around in the dark in Gollum's grotto and that's how he discovered the One Ring and could only see by the light of Sting. This implies Gollum had no or very little illumination, yet he got around his grotto fairly easily. Gollum was a hobbit, corrupted by the ring. Maybe the long years in the darkness Gollum had adapted to the low light conditions. I am not so sure the Ring imbued Gollum with vision because Bilbo could have taken advantage of that. On the flip side of the coin, Some races of Orcs may have, and certainly some Trolls were adversely affected by sunlight. Sauruman's Uruk-Hai could travel about by day with no ill effect leaving one to surmise that it may have been possible that lesser races of Orcs and Goblins may have been affected by sunlight in some way. But I don't know of what adverse affects that might have been. But stay tuned, for others here have in-depth knowledge they could share with you. -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Garbar |
Posted: Aug 26 2011, 03:55 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 407 Member No.: 1772 Joined: 8-August 11 ![]() |
You are right about elves having exceptional vision, as they can see great distances with clarity, by day or by the light of stars, but no dark vision.
And now that you mention it, I recall the mention of light shafts in Moria, implying that dwarves do indeed need light. As for orcs hating sunlight, that is established in the TOR rules in the adversary section. Just opened up the Hobbit to Over Hill And Under Hill, "It was the deep, deep, dark, such as only goblins that have taken to living in the heart of the mountains can see through." Yet on the same page, there is the description of the great goblins cavern, which has a fire and torches, which I doubt are for the benefit of the dwarves. Obviously, the existence of darkvision is significant, as an ability to see in total darkness would give orcs and goblins a major advantage in addition to their doubled attribute bonus as a result of Denizen of the Dark. So I think I will assume they navigate in the dark by touch and memory, rather than give them the benefit of being able to see in the dark. |
Venger |
Posted: Aug 26 2011, 04:02 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
An interesting topic. I'm glad you brought it up. If my group gets around to playing TOR I will need this information. I haven't made it to the Loremaster's Book yet btw. And I had forgotten that;
Sort of implies Goblins have something akin to darkvision? By the way, I am avoiding going into the Loremasters book purposely until I have completely digested the Adventurer's book, are Goblins a separate race from Orc? -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Garbar |
Posted: Aug 26 2011, 05:06 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 407 Member No.: 1772 Joined: 8-August 11 ![]() |
That's not a simple answer from what I was reading. Seems to me they are kind of like cousins, but could be different names for the same species, I'll leave the details to someone with more knowledge on the subject... |
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timb |
Posted: Aug 26 2011, 07:28 PM
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Not sure if it was in the first History of Middle Earth but as far as I know Tolkien's goblin/orc are the same, just different cultures in various areas. He uses the word goblin in the Hobbit but orc in the rest of his stories, for the greater part. The word "orc" comes from Anglo-Saxon -
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CRKrueger |
Posted: Aug 26 2011, 07:37 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 35 Member No.: 1737 Joined: 2-August 11 ![]() |
All orcs descend in some way from the original orcs corrupted from Elves. During the time of TOR, there are three major "breeds" of orc.
Mordor Orcs are those created and bred by Sauron. You have the Snaga and the Uruk as basic types, the slaves (trackers, hunter and thieves) and warriors respectively. Isengard Orcs are those created and bred by Saruman. These are the famous Uruk-Hai that stand tall and straight and can withstand the sunlight. These are created by interbreeding Orcs with Men. Saruman also created "goblin-men" or "half-orcs". Moria Orcs or Misty Mountain Orcs are not directly bred by a Maiar, these days but somehow by their own devices, possibly through magic remaining from when the Witch King ruled Angmar. These are the orcs more commonly known as "goblins"*. They infest the mountains from Mount Gram to Moria to Mount Gundabad. As evidenced by the Great Goblin, Bolg, Azog, etc, these orcs can grow very large and powerful as they age. Of all the Third Age orcs, these are probably closest to the original orcs. Where do orcs come from is one of the more difficult questions a LM can try to answer as obviously there aren't enough elves, dwarves, men or hobbits alive to make all these orcs. *The actual distinction between orc and goblin is just that Tolkien used goblins more in the Hobbit and orcs in the other books. However, since the Hobbit deals with the Misty Mountain breed and the other books primarily with other breeds, I've taken to calling the MM orcs "goblins". The lore supports it, but Tolkien himself made no such distinction officially. |
Venger |
Posted: Aug 26 2011, 08:14 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
Good answers. I'm glad to hear that they are not treated like a separate species like other game systems do.
Though that might be a moot point to some -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Arandil |
Posted: Aug 26 2011, 09:55 PM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 42 Member No.: 1739 Joined: 3-August 11 ![]() |
Orcs were first devised by Morgoth in the first age. In his older imaginings, Tolkien presumed that they were bred from captured Elves, but late in his life he considered changing his mind to orcs being bred from Men. He leaves the precise method that Morgoth used undetailed.
I won't speculate on specifics of origin, as they're rather distasteful to imagine, but certainly orcs are able to breed on their own. However, there's a bit more:
So, the least of the corrupted Maiar in the service of Morgoth may have become orcs; probably even the 'greatest' of the orcs. The 'Great Orc' breed in the TOR LG appear to be this sort of orc. They may even have helped bring about the 'race' of orcs in the first place (that's as far as I'll speculate). After more than two ages being bound to this form, they're almost certainly unable to re-embody without the aid of Necromacy, although they may be able to haunt a place as some largely intangible menace. With regard to the other various breeds of orc, what are referred to as 'goblins' of the Misty Mountains appear to be remnents of the original 'wild' orcs bred by Morgoth. Sauron was apparently quite unhappy with this lot, and so spent many centuries 'improving' them in Mordor, ending up with a rather numerous and varied assortment of orcs and uruks by the end of the Third Age. Really, I would take all of the stat blocks in the TOR LB as merely examples, and I don't personally agree with all of them (although I believe the classifications are quite decent). |
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Venger |
Posted: Aug 26 2011, 10:06 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 ![]() |
This is something to chew on. I had never considered this concept -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Arandil |
Posted: Sep 18 2011, 09:54 PM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 42 Member No.: 1739 Joined: 3-August 11 ![]() |
Haven't really been at this in a while, been quite distracted.
I began with statting out Wights using as much from the game books as published as possible. As Barrow Wights are just one instance of Fell Spirits bound by Necromancy, they would have some aspects in common with other Fell Spirits and I've been pondering how to do this faithfully within the framework of TOR. It's goals like this that makes me love FATE Aspects vs. strict quantified stats ... ![]() I wouldn't give Barrow Wights all the same exact stats, so I'm suggesting a range for some of these. ATTRIBUTE LEVEL: 6 - 8 Assumption: They're old spirits but have been bound to the barrows for a long time, they may have faded a bit, and would vary in strength from each other. Caveat: some special abilities might boost these levels too far, and they should probably be lower levels to begin with in such cases. ENDURANCE 30 - 60 HATE 5 - 10 PARRY 4 - 6 ARMOUR 2d SKILLS Personality 2 Movement 3 Perception 3 Survival 2 Custom 2 Vocation 3 WEAPON SKILLS (Swords) (Spears) Dagger SPECIAL ABILITIES I reviewed the special abilities outlined in the LG. Some of them fit well enough, but they're rule definition seems much narrower than their descriptions could support. Special abilities seem to only have one single mechanical effect, but I can see (as with FATE Aspects) more than one way to imagine a given description expressing in the story. Not going to do anything about this right now, too early to tinker. So, for the sake of the exercise, here's some thoughts on the listed special abilities that seem to be more or less applicable to wights. I wouldn't necessarily use all of them together. Dreadful Spells This ability definitely fits the Wights, but the specific effects I'm still tinkering with. The adversaries in the LG seem to only have one 'spell'/effect described for this ability, which seems arbitrarily restrictive. My inclination is to leave this ability only broadly defined, and open to extrapolation. One enchantment the Wights seem to have produced in the story is an enchanted sleep. There's the hobbits falling asleep when they camped to rest and eat outside the barrows. There's Frodo falling unconcious when seized by a Wight. And there's the slumber of the hobbits laying in the barrow as a Wight was chanting some ritual. I'm sure the Wights are capable of other magic too. That ritual had the sound of something Necromatic, something that might bind or curse the hobbits' spirits. Denizen of the Dark Potential. Although the attribute level above may need to be reduce to avoid a Wight becoming too super human. Hate Sunlight True, though the listed description may not go far enough. I'd suspect that Wights would not venture physically into sunlight at all, if they could help it, and might be much reduced if they did. Hatred (the Living) This fits, but might be too broad, or at least it probably shouldn't be stacked with too many other ability-augmenting SPs. Strike Fear This fits, although Thing of Terror is probably more appropriate. Thing of Terror I might raise the TN here to 15 or even 16. There's some aspects of Wights/Fell Spirits that I do not see covered in the LG list of special abilities. For one thing, their senses are not physical, but spiritual, rather like the Nazgul. It also seems reasonable that the Wights were aware of the hobbits passing through their territory, even when they were (presumably) 'physically' within their barrows. There's also the possibility that some spirits were essentially bound to the place itself, sort of haunting it, and others were bound to the bodies in the barrows. I'm tinkering with a 'Fell Spirit' special ability that describes spiritual senses, and possibly some other features unique to them. Not sure how to represent it mechanically. Still WIP, I'll post more after some time. Thoughts welcome. |
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