I originally posted this here:

http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...33&t=2514&st=15

But felt guilty about the increasing thread derailment (it's not longer about undead/statting up barrow wights), so I deleted and moved here.

In that thread, I agree with Tolwen.

As a black numenorean of 100 or so, who has forgotten his name due to years of proximity to Sauron (others forget names in less time, dwarf king in Dol Guldur), he fits with Tolkien's other writing.

As someone prolonging mortal life, being clearly stated a living man, to 1000's of years he contradicts the absence of such magic otherwise in Middle Earth once one leaves "ring bearers with stretched years" behind. Tolkien links lifespan of humans and grace to some degree, evil gets shorter.

Also Numenor was avid to extend life and found no way to do so, certainly would not have shrunk back from blood magics etc. The Third Age is a diminished time in the arts from Numenor at its height so it would not be found in the Third Age.

I didn't see how the Mouth being a long lived living man or not was relevant to the undead thing in any event.

Some of this debate is acknowledged here

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Mouth_of_Sauron

(I have no part in authoring that but agree with it generally)

If one wants to come up with life extending necromancy etc., okay but to use the Other Minds system, I don't think that's Core (absolutely based on canon) or Optional (clear extension of canon, like writing up what rebuilt Dale looks like), but rather Houserule (your own additions). We will all likely have our own Houserules, including me, I admit, though I find "sticking to Core and Optional" an intellectual challenge I welcome).

Yeah, I agree.

One of the more frustrating aspects of MERP - derived no doubt from each writer's personal campaign where the villain was a major exception to the rule - was the number of nigh-immortal Numenoreans. And also the number of "lesser rings" and consequent "lesser ring-wraiths" - lesser rings are canon - the're in FotR - but there's no indication they prolong life.
The other part I had problems with was the use of Elven villains allied with Sauron or Saruman. In some ways, humans are more interesting as villains, because of their short lives and tendency to "burn brighter."

You mention the relevant texts precisely. We encounter the Mouth in TA 3019; 68 years after he entered the service of Sauron. That is absolutely in the range even for a regular human. If he entered the service as a child (e.g. given to Sauron as some kind of tribute or hostage), he might be in his mid- to late seventies in 3019. If he entered by his own choice (e.g. late teens or early twenties), he would be in his late eighties to early nineties.
In any case, he will be old for sure, but still well within the range for both normal humans - and even more so for longer lived races (though I doubt that the few remaining BN's still had any advantage in average life expectancy to other men at this time).

One can surmise that the sorceries provided him with extended health (e.g. more fit than the regular man in his age), though that is not necessary.

Real histories provides enough examples of people being "brainwashed" or through education lose personal memories. The Mouth was exposed to Sauron for most of his life, and the "great sorcery" is not that unlikely to have side effects.

In addition, since we can be quite sure that he is fanatically loyal to Sauron (otherwise he wouldn't hold this position), he might identify himself with his master and his wishes/goals/ideology to such an extent, that such trivia as his own personal name have no meaning or importance for him. Combined with the effects mentioned above, it is for me no suprise that he forgot such irrelevant trivia.

Thus the "forgetting" is not an accidental or unintentional event, but a deliberate one (or at least accepted, since the name was not relevant to his position as the Mouth). We all know how quickly we - under normal, comfortable conditions - can and will forget things we do not deem necessary to keep in mind any longer.

Beyond all these considerations, such a solution has - IMO - the advantage of not needing hard-to-explain assumptions about sorceries keeping you a living man for at least centuries or even millenia. It works with the basic facts about a human's lifetime and psychological effects about - intended(?) - selective amnesia in the continued presence of a demonic god-king

Best
Tolwen

IMO that's quite easy. In Appendix B it is said that Sauron begins to re-build the Dark Tower in TA 2951 ("it started to rise again"), so as I see it, this question is one the most clearly and explicitly answered

From about SA 3441 (or the very early years of the Third Age) until TA 2951 the Barad-dur is at best a heap of rubble or even only the foundations with even the rubble removed.

Before that (e.g. from about SA 1000 to 3441), the tower stood uninterrupted, even when Sauron was in Eregion or Númenor.

Best
Tolwen

To bring this all back to One Ring gaming, it does mean that around the time Sauron rebuilds tower (within the time frame of One Ring setting), one can assume there are evil folk being called into his service. This is part of the whole "evil things called to Mordor".

One could always have these figure in a One Ring campaign - men trying to prove their worth. PC's would never know which might become eventually "the Mouth" as of course they do not know his name!

A PC quest might be to destroy/show as unworthy a candidate that is actually better, thus ensuring the eventual Mouth is not as effective as he might have been. These sort of "without the enemy knowing it, swap out their effective weapons for less effective one" missions can blend with canon and let heroes feel they "helped set the stage" for the success of the Ring Bearer etc.

Generally heading off evil things that awaken and seeing they don't get to Mordor is also a fitting role for heroes.

That sounds like a good hook that is blending excellently into the established histories. And the one bad guy that escapes (or brings his son to safety in Mordor and which eventually becomes the Mouth!!!) still is capable and smart enough to fight another day.

Best
Tolwen

And I apologize, since it originally started branching out upon a commentary regarding undead/undeath vs other forms of necromancy/sorcery as going against man's nature or "the gift/doom of men" and spun into a discussion of the Mouth himself as example.

And yes, sticking to "core" is something I enjoy greatly as well.

According to core Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit... Sauron could possibly be an elf gone bad which matches all the core textual references to him. Only when other texts are considered does another picture emerge, which in the situation-in-point of Sauron causes many severe conflicts in the "core" with those other texts of the <well if Sauron is a Maia then how come...> variety.

Just an example of enjoying the core.

"And also the number of "lesser rings" and consequent "lesser ring-wraiths" - lesser rings are canon - the're in FotR - but there's no indication they prolong life."

Now THAT is a whole 'nother discussion!
But the Lesser Rings of Power might be effective RPG elements that need serious tapping into.

"The other part I had problems with was the use of Elven villains allied with Sauron or Saruman."

Strangely enough, given the Sauron example above, they're more likely to have been allied with Morgoth in the first age, which Lord of the Rings also supports in vague comments about treachery from within and other hints given by Elrond and others regarding the previous ages.

Stuff just branches in discussion. Sorry.

Unfortunately, the discussion regarding the practices of the temple in Numenor falls under one of those "not so core" elements, but does provide some fuel for thought--perhaps even in roleplaying for other temples to Sauron in Middle earth.

A mouth of Sauron that is thousands of years old is somewhat cool but I think you have a point. If Tolkien intended him to have lived far beyond a natural human life span I think he would have commented it somewhere.

Him forgetting his name in less then 70 years isn't strange if you remember that loss of individuality is a main feature of submitting to evil in Tolkiens thought. Evil is an emptiness that in time pervert and consume all that submit to it.

Er, Sauron was a Maia, not an Elf turned by Melkor. That is fairly explicit in the books.

Your discussion is very intriguing regarding the Mouth and his potential age. I wasn't wholly convinced though on the part of bringing his life span to that of a mere mortal. The original quotes speaking of him rising in the ranks of Sauron's service and learning terrible Sorceries to me bespeak of a length of time passing that is beyond a few decades.

I concur about the forgetting of one's name - that could happen in short or long term and has examples through Lotr.

My take on it, and it is just that, is that if the Black Numenoreans had passed away then should the Mouth be one, then a greater lifespan would be inferred. I don't disclaim that there might be an island of them in the backcountry somewhere that Sauron came across for him to qualify in the 'Young Mouth' theory, though in the cursory reading it spoke more of age.

What is telling to me was of his learning of the terrible sorceries. In a D&D setting/world magic is common and for a human to rise to a powerful mage is only a matter of assuming a few decades. Magic or inherent powers that I have observed in Middle Earth were something that took a great deal of time to grow in, and were in the realm of the Istari, Elves, Bombadil or others twisted by the Shadow. Sure, in the adage of you become what you behold, the Mouth may have managed this in the 'young Mouth' theory, I would imagine that it would take much longer before a mere Man would rise to be a lieutenant.

Hoy, I so need to reread a number of the books again ..

I have always been of the opinion that the Mouth was of the "older" variety. In fact, since there wasn't any definitive evidence of his demise at the end of the War of the Ring, I have always wanted to run a campaign in the Fourth Age with him as the new Dark Power. Possibly setting up shop in Angmar or on the dark island of Tol Fuin.

Ohhh did that one

Had the Mouth struck just as he was doing some kind of sorcery in a battle there and having the 'area' around it affected - dropping the adventurers and a hefty mass of the enemy, including the Mouth, a couple hundred years in the future 4th Age. As he didn't have any documentation that he did perish per se, he was/is an excellent adversary.

And it was fitting - Morgoth's lieutenant was Sauron and one of Sauron's was the Mouth. Kinda worked Tolkien style

Point of contention:
"Maia" is not found in Lord of the Rings.
Ever.
And no--it is not explicit.
One of the reasons I advised the designers to obtain PRE-Silmarillion copies of reference books.

To make the matter more clear in analogy:
You are recognizing what would be effectively a Greedo-shot-first retcon placed in an Empire Strikes Back situation where the license would only allow say the 1977 Star Wars to be used.

As for sorcery, the obvious practicioners (Sauron/Nercomancer, Witch-king as the two biggies) dealt with spirits/undeath. Be that Wraiths, Wights, Spirit Werewolves, The Dead of the Marshes or other forms of spiritual terror.

I beleive the Mouth was always a popular "new villain" in many RPG games/campaigns set after the main tales.

No, 'Maia' isn't found in LOTR, but Tolkien had plenty of other writings that you would be amiss to neglect. I'm not just talking about the Silmarillion, which has plenty of contradictions within it - there are also his published letters and other writings. It seems pretty clear from those that Sauron was certainly not an Elf. (By the way - at risk of a rabbit trail - coming at it from the point of view that The Hobbit and LOTR are 'core' is not particularly solid since they are only 'appendices,' as it were, to Tolkien's life-long work on M-E.) I'm not sure what contradictions/questions you are referring to about Sauron being a Maia. It all seems pretty straightforward to me.

Even disregarding those things, no elf would have Sauron's 'power-level,' whether corrupted or not. At the risk of going on another rabbit trail, even Galadriel, who is quite ancient, would only have attained the power to be a 'dark queen' by Sauron's power vested in the Ring.

That's not to say that you can't play it that way in your game if you want, but I think the consensus of both the materials and the fan community is that Sauron is almost definitely a Maia.

Ahhh, didn't know I was stepping on licensing issues by mentioning something outside of the trilogy and Hobbit. I guess I need to lurk more and speak less lest I cause legal troubles.

I suppose given the context you stipulate then Sauron could very well be a turned elf with a ring fetish.

My apologies for causing trouble. Will button up now.

Personally, I plan to go further in focusing on the "core". My planned approach for my TOR campaign is to say that everything in The Hobbit is more or less true (although Bilbo is perhaps a somewhat unreliable narrator, given how incompetent the dwarves seem to be). But only the broadest sweeps of The Silmarillion can be relied upon, and nothing in LotR is guaranteed at all beyond the basic geography of Middle-Earth.

So Bilbo really did find a magical ring that confers invisibility. No guarantees about it being the One Ring, however. Moria is indeed empty of dwarves for some reason, but you'll have to go there to find out what that reason is. And for sure everyone agrees that Smaug was killed by an arrow from Bard the Bowman. May or may not be the case.

And the biggie - who is the Necromancer?? It's all up for grabs.

Uhhh sorry if I gave that impression.
Fan stuff is great and is not under such constrictions.

But the issues raised were more a look at how license-holders have to look at things. One of the reasons licensed games aren't too well supported generally.
You always hear about them having to check with TPTB just to go to the bathroom. And the delays in approvals... usually why there is such a gap in releasing products.

"But only the broadest sweeps of The Silmarillion can be relied upon"

And that, for the designers, is the best way to approach things, IMO.

Not much is known really core-wise regarding the elder ages. Many interpretations are possible and one of the reasons I like new ones.
Staying "true" to what is outside of the two books is nice, but not necessary.

Core-wise, Thangorodrim--not much is known really. It was in the north, was Morgoth's fortress and it went boom.
Turin, Tuor, Hador, Hurin and Beren are pretty much it for mannish heroes with little explanation other than a brief summary concerning Luthien.
Wide open for new ideas.

Taken in this context, the game options open up significantly.
And again wandering off topic but I'd love to address this point:

"And the biggie - who is the Necromancer?? It's all up for grabs."

Fantastic! A Hobbit-only centralized game with NO Lord of the Rings. Talk about throwing off players who think they know everything to come or has already happened.
Great stuff. That'd keep them guessing.

I'll have to try that after I finish reading the books and digest what the system is capable of. I've been refraining from those topics until then.

Oh man... That is brilliant! It's so simple yet it opens up so many different avenues for one to explore.

That has been one of the few gripes my players have about playing in a Middle Earth setting. They really can't do anything earth shattering without stepping on accepted canon. This could really be interesting. Thinking cap engaged.

Actually the first thing to come to mind is geography. If i remember correctly, there wasn't an established map of Middle-Earth until well after the Hobbit had been published. Wouldn't it be interesting to throw your players onto a whole new continent, but with all the basic trappings of the Hobbit. It all goes back to line from the hobbit that I feel has never really been explained very well.

Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.
-The Hobbit

Yep.
The name of the game here is "The One Ring: Adventures Over the Edge of the Wild", not "Middle-Earth Minutae the RPG", amusing and pedantic as that is at times.

You could even theorize that Gondolin is/was possibly in Mirkwood (near the mountains?) if you like.
Lord of the Rings only establishes this really:
"There were webs of horror in the ravines near Gondolin where it [Sting] was forged."

Although, the brooch that Tom Bombadil finds in the barrow and saves for Goldberry is Idril's--at least from the description of it and the exactly matching illustration of Idril's device at any rate, so perhaps another nearer to the edge of the wild might be more appropriate. Especially so since the two Gondolin swords were also found near the edge of the wild.

Even more amusing is that up until almost the final drafts of Lord of the Rings, the map of Middle earth was Beleriand. The author even placed Neldoreth (kingdom of Thingol) as the forest above the Sea of Rhun among other very neat ideas. He simply transported a few ideas and elements from his unfinished Silmarillion tales to his new creation, but then at the last moments didn't follow through. Of course nothing in the books really disallows these original notions either.

Indeed and agreed.

Yes, the LOTR and Hobbit do not spell out Sauron's origin, one must look to the Silmarillion etc. to find that and it was published after Tolkien's death. In the time before it was published there were different speculations about Sauron's nature by fans etc. One Guide to Middle Earth published early '70's suggested he was likely a renegade Valar (wrong but close, Morgoth has that role).

However in all the many "excavations" of Tolkien's writing, the History of Middle Earth volumes etc., Sauron's nature is settled on early in Tolkien's thinking and never changed as far as I can see. And nothing in LOTR or Hobbit suggests anything else or inconsistent with what is found in the Silmarillion on this point

You don't have Morgoth in LOTR either, but his role and his acts making the world "his ring" are important to understand the nature of Middle Earth.

If anyone is prepared to treat the Silmarillion as tossed out the window (Gondolin in Mirkwood?) then, well, that gets you no better than the stuff MERP put out at times.

There is so much of value there, not just for gaming or "intellecutally understanding Middle Earth" but for enjoying LORT in particular. For example understanding Galadriel and her history, puts the test of the Ring being offered in LOTR in a larger context and adds so much then to that scene.

Agreed, valvorik. Admittedly, much of the non-LOTR writings are inconsistent in a lot of places as Tolkien's thought progressed, but there's still a ton of stuff that's of value to anyone interested in LOTR/The Hobbit. To me, the LOTR and The Hobbit aren't complete without at least a passing knowledge of Tolkien's base mythology (which was not thrown out with the writing of LOTR).

That being said, do whatever makes your game the most fun for you. I just reserve the right to disagree.

Tolwen,

I never had a chance to thank you for your comments concerning the timeline of the Mouth of Sauron. This is exactly what I meant about his age during Sauron's flight to Mordor & the second rise of the Dark Tower, & meshes perfectly with a number of plotlines .

BTW, I wasn't aware that you also authored some of those older MERP articles. While that system per se didn't really work for me, your insightful writing provided me with all kinds of great background material for characters, plots, & such.

Coming to the topic of the Mouth. Here's an interesting alternate timeline (sketched in a few sentences) I heard once.

The first rose again reference is not a physical reference but a reference to the power of the Dark Tower and it's influence in the affairs of Middle-earth. That said, this alludes to his return after the Downfall of Numenor when Sauron rose again after going down to the abyss with the island...at least physically.

The reference then to BN bears more in common with, "this is who he is" as opposed to this is who he is descended from possibly. Play that out, the might of Numenor under Ar-Pharazon was unchallengeable. His and Numenor's fall leaves a massive power vacuum in the Numenoreans living outside the island kingdom itself. It is only in this power vacuum that Sauron can step in and become for those Numenoreans of Middle-earth what he did, before their fealty would have been unquestionally given to the Line of Elros Tar-Minyatur. The Mouth enters the service of the Dark Tower during this vacuum.

Whether or not the Mouth enters the service of Sauron in the SA or the TA does move me so much as the reality you bring to the forefront. At the time of TOR's first core set, evil astir is coalescing around the will of Sauron. This creates all kinds of interesting possibilities from within Wilderland as sources of spies; and, more importantly, soon to become significant agents of the Dark Tower who might have first served during the re-occupation of Dol Guldur.

Great ideas...

Haven't really followed this topic at all, so sorry if this has been beaten to death - but - is it possible that the Mouth is actually many humans? Each died 'natural' death and then a new one stepped in to assume the duties of a Mouth? Sort of appointment? An evil civil servant? Are there good ones?

I'm always happy that people like - and find useful - at least part of what I have written. I hope you'll find future pieces as interesting and handy

Yes, it was a great time back then in the late 90s with Other Hands around. I discovered it relatively late, but then came into full swing

Best
Tolwen

To Kalatharion and others, the Mouth of Sauron is in fact the main adversary in my version of Fourth Age Middle Earth (see my chronology in the Other Minds issue based on the Fourth Age). I had this idea (at least 20 years ago!) that he fell into one of the chasms that opened up in the ground with the fall of Sauron whilst trying to ride back to Barad-dur (remember that Tolkien only writes that he rides back through the Black Gates), but was able to preserve his spirit unnaturally through the sorceries (especially the art of ringmaking) taught him by his master. When he arose again he then calls himself 'Herumor' (as per Tolkien's Return of the Shadow unfinished story), although he is now an Undead similar to the Ringwraiths, and was able to remain undiscovered by Elessar's forces as one of Sauron's fortresses in Mordor was secretly buried by collapsing mountains.

I had him only acting 'behind others' for many centuries in the Fourth Age....
I am still writing up my campaign, which I postponed for the release of TOR! I thought he was a good choice as adversary as it fits with Tolkien's themes that 'evil' when it returns is always similar to the 'old evil', thus Sauron was a servant of Morgoth, thus the Mouth!

Robin S.