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Caldarion |
Posted: Oct 2 2012, 10:12 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 20 Member No.: 1880 Joined: 3-September 11 ![]() |
Hi everyone
I'm looking to figure out a campaign in the 4th Age, and was wondering if anyone had tackled making stats for the Mouth of Sauron? I was also looking for stats for just simple bandits and leader. I'm thoroughly enjoying the game, and am looking forward to the supplements. Thanks all. Have a great day/night |
Garn |
Posted: Oct 2 2012, 10:21 PM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 938 Member No.: 2432 Joined: 10-February 12 ![]() |
To my knowledge, no the Mouth of Sauron has not been written up. I might have missed it however.
I know Tales From Wilderland includes Thugs, but I'm not sure of any other new Adversaries in that product. Just happens that someone mentioned the Thugs in another topic when I was thinking that TOR needed bandits/pirates/scum to slaughter. Honestly though, stating up creatures in TOR is ridiculously easy. With minimal consideration you should be able to do 85% of the work in about 5 minutes. After that it's a matter of tweaking things and trying to create a fair balance in comparison to other Adversaries. Finally, when you think you're done, go back and look for any deadly combos of abilities, spells, etc. Just in case you've created a "one - two punch" that is particularly nasty. -------------------- Garn!
I have yet to read the books thoroughly. |
Caldarion |
Posted: Oct 3 2012, 12:14 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 20 Member No.: 1880 Joined: 3-September 11 ![]() |
Thank you Garn, appreciated.
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Rich H |
Posted: Oct 3 2012, 02:04 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 882 Member No.: 2664 Joined: 15-May 12 ![]() |
The only tricky thing is if you're creating an adversary that would require some kind of new ability - that's the only thing I can see people struggling with. -------------------- 1) The Fellowship of the Free - a TOR Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=3424
2) Three's Company - a TOR Hobbit-only Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=4081 3) A collection of additional and house rules for TOR: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Additiona...use%20Rules.pdf 4) Alternate Journey rules: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Rules%20-...ney%20Rules.pdf 5) Anyone for Hobbit Cricket? If so, check out my rules here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Hobbit%20Cricket.pdf 6) Keep those TOR character sheets clean, use this Scratch Sheet instead: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...tch%20Sheet.pdf 7) TOR Character Sheet (use with Scratch Sheet): https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf 8) TOR Tale of Years Sheet: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf 9) Adventure - To Journey's End and the Eagles' Eyrie: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/To%20Jour...%27%20Eyrie.pdf 10) Adventure - Dawn Comes Early: ... Coming Soon! |
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Garn |
Posted: Oct 3 2012, 07:03 PM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 938 Member No.: 2432 Joined: 10-February 12 ![]() |
That is very true. However I have noticed a trend to put new abilities into the Cunning Spell (correct name?) where you have to make a Corruption Check. Anyway, the trend to use this Ability causes more uniformity in the design. Kind of makes the Ability uber deadly though.
I've always wondered if SG/C7 didn't mean to expand the Adversary Abilities with the release of the extra Boxed Sets based on the original product release intentions. Although I have come to expect, since then, that TOR will follow CoC's type of expansion. A slow accretion of spells, abilities, traits, magical items, etc as each product released introduces a couple of new things. -------------------- Garn!
I have yet to read the books thoroughly. |
Robin Smallburrow |
Posted: Oct 4 2012, 06:08 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 151 Member No.: 1930 Joined: 14-September 11 ![]() |
Caldarion
I am working on stats for the Mouth of Sauron (aka Herumor) at the moment, as I run a campaign in the Fourth Age with this guy as my main villain - I am currently working on converting stats I have already produced for both MERP and Decipher's LOTRPG so will keep you posted when I have them done (I am using the Gibbet King from ToFW as a template, also one fan produced stats for the Nazgul which I am using). What I can give you are some abilities of the former Mouth of Sauron that do not require rules as such: Appearance At the time of the War of the Ring the Mouth is recognizably still a man, an imposing figure of 6’7” tall, made taller by his helm, which is a tall helm fashioned of fish scales with various dark jewels, such helms were worn by Ar-Pharazon’s followers prior to the Downfall of Numenor, and it resembles a diving fish with apertures replacing the fishes ‘eyes’, allowing the wearer to see, the ‘mouth’ is open, exposing the wearer’s mouth and nostrils, the helm has nine ‘teeth’ that protect the wearer’s face, whilst the lower ‘jaw’ protects the neck. The Mouth was so conscious of remaining secretive and anonymous that when not wearing the helm he would often wear a mask that disguised his actual face. After the Downfall of Sauron and the Mouth’s fall into the Abyss, Herumor continues to wear the Numenorean Battle Helm and the armour of the former Mouth of Sauron, but now does so for a very different reason – his body is so broken and disfigured as to strike fear into the bravest hearts, thus his current servants now warn to ‘Beware if our master removes his helm’. Herumor now appears as an animated skeleton, but with some flesh still sticking to the body, and any who see Herumor’s true appearance must roll vs fear. When Herumor is ‘possessed’ by Morgoth, his face actually ‘twists’ in feature to resemble Morgoth’s own face. Powers/abilities As mentioned earlier, when possessed by Morgoth Herumor’s powers are virtually god-like as Morgoth is able to affect the area around Herumor due to the link made with Morgoth whilst Herumor is linked to the throne. This link is gradually growing stronger as time goes by, thus one event that will happen is that Mount Doom will burst into flame once the link is strong enough for Herumor/Morgoth to control the Mountain, in fact Herumor tried once before but failed, this was the earthquake of two years earlier that destroyed the Dwarf hold in the Mountains of Shadow. When not possessed by Morgoth, Herumor is an undead wraith of similar (but lesser) powers and abilities to the Ringwraiths who served Sauron. Indeed, Herumor has just like his former dark master placed much of his spirit into the ring he wears. Thus, Herumor’s abilities include: Bladeshattering : A normal weapon that strikes Herumor’s corpse will shatter. With better made or enchanted weapons the GM will make a roll depending on how powerful the weapon is – this effect does not work on Aulë’s Sword. Fear: Being Undead, Herumor’s presence strikes fear into all around him, at the same level as a Ringwraith (indeed, treat Herumor as similar to a Ringwraith in most matters). Perceive Rings of Power: Having been taught by Sauron himself, Herumor is a master at detecting any magical rings, even more so than the standard ability to Perceive Magic. Persistent Existence: Herumor’s own secret is that most of his spirit resides in his own ring (see below), just as his former master had done. Thus while his ring continues to exist, if Herumor’s corpse is slain, his spirit will ‘reform’, how long and where depends on random factors decided by the GM. Undead Senses: Being Undead, Herumor cannot see normally, in fact sunlight is one of his weaknesses (see below). In darkness Herumor can ‘see’ normally, and also in the Spirit World. He can also smell the blood of living creatures, if close enough to be able to tell racial types etc. Wraith form: In the Spirit World Herumor appears as he did when formally the Mouth of Sauron, as a tall man, but also pale and more gaunt than when alive. As an Undead, he does not need to sleep, eat or drink. Weaknesses: The link b/w Herumor and Morgoth gets progressively weaker during daylight, and is destroyed by the noon sun, gradually reforming again during the afternoon. Thus Herumor is most vulnerable at noon. At this time also, his senses are most affected by sunlight, which is why he hides in his lair nearly all the time. If Herumor in spirit form went outside, he also finds it difficult to cross running water or other common aspects of nature, such as fire, and if confronted by normal fire must make a test to resist fear. He is also vulnerable to one who invokes one of the Valar in faith, especially Elbereth or Varda. Herumor’s physical body or corpse is incapable of moving by itself, so often it is carried by his servants from the throne room to his main lair (see below). Magic: Herumor retains all the knowledge he formally had as The Mouth of Sauron, thus is a master magician, especially of sorcery, and knows all sorcery and necromancy spells. Hope this helps for now!! Any other questions on the Fourth Age feel free to ask, as I also produced a Fourth Age Chronology (which was in one of the Other Minds issues) Robin S. ![]() -------------------- by Robin Smallburrow
TOR documents created by me, you can view and download by clicking these links: Magic in Middle Earth V.2 The Dragon's Ring List of Aids V.2 Fan Supplement V.2 A Kidnapping in Umbar |
Garn |
Posted: Oct 4 2012, 08:41 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 938 Member No.: 2432 Joined: 10-February 12 ![]() |
Robin,
Interesting concept of the Mouth of Sauron in the Fourth Age. Where did you get the NPC's name? As I understand it he is supposed to have served Sauron so long he had forgotten his own name. If I might offer one slight suggestion, I would add that Herumor is afraid of Ulmo, King of the Sea and his servants (Ossë, Uinen and Salmar are the Maiar known to serve Ulmo). Although destroyed by Eru, this would be a kind of carry-over affect from the destruction of Numenor, drowning of the Unfaithful (my term - the Black Numenoreans who stayed in Numenor) and the collateral damage suffered by the Black Numenoreans within the colonies from the resulting tsunami. -------------------- Garn!
I have yet to read the books thoroughly. |
Halbarad |
Posted: Oct 4 2012, 10:13 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 641 Member No.: 2053 Joined: 24-October 11 ![]() |
I like the ideas Robin. I must admit to a little confusion though. What is this throne that you refer to and how has the Mouth become 'possessed' by Morgoth? sorry if I've missed something obvious.
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Caldarion |
Posted: Oct 4 2012, 03:19 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 20 Member No.: 1880 Joined: 3-September 11 ![]() |
Great write-up, Robin!
I can't wait to see what you come up with in your stat-line for him. I too am interested where the name Herumor came from. I love the story line, and I've read elsewhere on the forums of the idea of a Throne that is hidden in Arda, perhaps to trigger the return of Morgoth, as there is no doubt that he will return and the final battle begins. Thank you all for your input thus far. |
Garn |
Posted: Oct 4 2012, 03:26 PM
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Halbarad,
I kind of assumed we were shown only a portion of a more extensive NPC profile. Mostly the stuff that would affect stating the Mouth as an NPC. But there were some very interesting bits in there. -------------------- Garn!
I have yet to read the books thoroughly. |
Halbarad |
Posted: Oct 4 2012, 03:47 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 641 Member No.: 2053 Joined: 24-October 11 ![]() |
Ah, so it wasn't just me. There were some missing bits of info...
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Halbarad |
Posted: Oct 4 2012, 04:26 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 641 Member No.: 2053 Joined: 24-October 11 ![]() |
Here's are some of my thoughts for the Mouth of Sauron for use in the default of 2946TA.
He deals in spreading malice,falsehoods and half truths with the intention of destroying the Hopes and dreams of the Free Folk. His voice barely rises above a hiss, sibilant but insistent, it seems to carry to all those he wishes to hear his lies. He would definitely have the Shadow Ability of Commanding Voice. I would probably give him an Attribute level of about 8 (putting him on a par with a certain other major villain from TotW) and 10 Hate points. What do you guys think of the following? Dreadful Spell: Poisonous Whispers During any social interaction, reduce his Hate points by one to force a character to take a Corruption test at TN16. Failure means that the character gains a Shadow point and may not spend Hope points to augment his Die rolls for as long as he remains in the presence of the Mouth of Sauron. The Mouth of Sauron may spend several points of Hate at the same time to affect multiple characters. |
Halbarad |
Posted: Oct 4 2012, 04:33 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 641 Member No.: 2053 Joined: 24-October 11 ![]() |
@ Caldarion.
There are stats for Thugs, Outlaws, Outlaw Archers, an Outlaw Chief and some Easterlings in TotW. ![]() |
Caldarion |
Posted: Oct 4 2012, 06:59 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 20 Member No.: 1880 Joined: 3-September 11 ![]() |
Thank you Halbarad. Haven't managed to get ahold of that supplement yet. =(
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Francesco |
Posted: Oct 4 2012, 07:12 PM
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Group: Playtesters Posts: 256 Member No.: 864 Joined: 22-January 10 ![]() |
Herumor, and Fuinur?, were names for Black Numenoreans that Tolkien invented but didn't use in his published work. I think that both names are variants upon the same theme, both meaning something like 'dark lord'. So, well suited for the Mouth of Sauron! Either as a 'nom de plume' or a sort of title given by evil Men. Btw, this thread, and the forum in general, is really good. Thank you! Francesco |
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Robin Smallburrow |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 12:24 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 151 Member No.: 1930 Joined: 14-September 11 ![]() |
Wow, thanks for the feedback guys!
![]() Will try and answer the questions: 1. The name 'Herumor' comes from a little-known sequel to The Lord of the Rings that Tolkien began called The New Shadow, you can find this unfinished story in The Peoples of Middle-earth (Volume 12 of the History of Middle-earth. In this story the name 'Herumor' is mentioned as a mysterious figure - the story is set in King Eldarion (Elessar's son) reign - it was just surmise on my part that this figure and The Mouth were the same. 2. Many fans including me felt that The Mouth survived Sauron's downfall, however to my knowledge I am the only one who came up with the idea that The Mouth only survived as an 'Undead' creature, kept alive because his spirit remained in the ring he wore, but also because he 'happened' across The Throne of Morgoth (actually Melkor's original throne from Utumno), which was not destroyed by the Valar but had lain dormant far underground, waiting for someone powerful enough to 'trigger' it.... 3. You can find other fan-made ideas about the Mouth on the web - I seem to recall an issue of 'The Hall of Fire' fanzine (for Decipher's LOTRPG) had an article on The Mouth's secret fortress. 4. This is why I love TfW, because I can use The Chain of Thangorodrim as well in the Fourth Age! 5. Assumptions made are correct, I only showed the non-stats stuff. Halbarad - love your idea of Dreadful Spells - Poisonous Whispers and will probably use. But also see below the stats for Nazgul (I think from James Brown) as a guide: Nazgûl Personality 4 Attribute Level 10 Movement 2 Endurance 60 Perception 4 Hate 10 Survival 1 Parry 6 Custom 1 Armour 3d Vocation 3 Weapon Skill DMG Edge Injury C Long Sword 4 5/7 10 16/18 Poison Morgul Blade 3 3 C 14 Poison Black Breath: Reduce the Nazgûl’s Hate point score by one to force all heroes to make a Corruption Test. On a success, the hero loses 1 Shadow Point and is frozen in place for 2d6 rounds; the hero he still has the use of his wits and can still speak and understand what is going on. On a failure, the hero loses 2 Shadow Points and the hero immediately collapses unconscious into a perpetual coma. Commanding Voice: Reduce the Nazgûl’s Hate point score by one to restore one Hate point to all allies involved in the confrontation. Denizen of the Dark: While the Nazgûl is in the dark (at night, underground, or in a dense forest) its Attribute Level is doubled as far as all rolls are concerned (attack and Protection tests included). Dreadful Spells (Touch of Death): A hero who fails the Corruption test due to the Touch of Death gains the Weary condition. Fear of Fire: The Nazgûl loses one point of Hate at the end of the first round of combat fought against a direct adversary wielding a torch or other sort of burning item. Fear of Water: The Nazgûl loses one point of Hate each round of combat when in water. Hideous Toughness: Reduce the Nazgûl’s Hate point score by one to reduce the Endurance loss caused by an enemy’s attack by a number of points equal to the Nazgûl’s Attribute Level. Strike Fear (TN 18): Reduce the Nazgûl’s Hate point score by one to force all companions to make a Fear test. Thing of Terror (TN 18): A hero facing such a terrifying creature must make a Fear test at the beginning of every round of combat, until he fails or he succeeds with a great or extraordinary success. Wraithform: • Unless the Nazgûl is wearing robes or armour, they are almost invisible; heroes need to pass an Awareness test to spot them. • You can’t kill a Nazgûl as long as the One Ring exists. A Nazgûl cannot be defeated until it receives a number of wounds equal to its current Attribute Level; defeated Nazgûl recover Endurance at double speed. • Nazgûl have -2 to all rolls during day; -4 to all rolls when in direct sunlight. Robin S. -------------------- by Robin Smallburrow
TOR documents created by me, you can view and download by clicking these links: Magic in Middle Earth V.2 The Dragon's Ring List of Aids V.2 Fan Supplement V.2 A Kidnapping in Umbar |
Tolwen |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 12:32 AM
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Yes. The important part is published (in his lifetime). They are found in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in the Sil77. Cheers Tolwen -------------------- Visit Other Minds - a free international journal devoted to roleplaying and scholarly interests in J.R.R. Tolkien's works
Other Minds now has a new group in Facebook. Come and join there! |
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Garn |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 01:10 AM
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I like it. But of course I want to tinker. ![]() I would suggest replacing "poisonous". To me the name implies an effect akin to a ranged attack which if successful instills poison into the target. Very appropriate for a Spitting Cobra, Yuan-ti, Medusa, etc but I don't really see it as being appropriate to the Mouth of Sauron. You need a corruption synonym, maybe something like these? Corrosive Corrupting, Depraved, Dissolute, Eroding, Festering, Gnawing, Iniquitous, Invasive, Pernicious*, Profane, Ruinous, Suppurating, Verminous. My favorite is Pernicious. (Hmm, Gnawing seems kinda ghoulish/zombie cannibalistic in retrospect.) While I realize that as LM's we are not gaming against the players, some GM's have been known to take that approach. So the possibility of the Mouth endlessly whispering into one opponents' ear is a potential problem. With 10 Hate doesn't that mean the character can be induced into a bout of madness by the Mouth whispering sweet nothings into the characters' ear for a while? I would suggest limiting the use of this ability to maybe once per day (or week?) per character or something similar. So the Mouth can attack multiple targets with these tantalizing whispers, but he cannot focus his attacks on a single individual indefinitely. Hmm.. thought just occurred to me. The danger with speaking to Saruman or the Mouth of Sauron was the invasive qualities of their voices. Seeming to imply and suggest things that were not actually said. Allowing the individual listening to hear what they wished to some extent. But these were Social Encounters, not combat per se. So what if the use of verbal abilities that did not inflict immediate damage were handled as role-playing / social encounters? This would allow either NPC to slowly taint a listener into doing what they wanted. It might act as a delayed response Persuade skill check? Maybe if applied for a long time the effect increases? So, listen today and disagree, but by tomorrow you've talked yourself into thinking it is a good idea to do what they wanted. By next week, you're a strong proponent of the idea, in a month you came up with the idea yourself and so on. -------------------- Garn!
I have yet to read the books thoroughly. |
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Garn |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 02:01 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 938 Member No.: 2432 Joined: 10-February 12 ![]() |
Robin, Which Ring did you give to the Mouth of Sauron? As I understand things, the other 19 Greater Rings of Power and all the Lesser Rings of Power probably failed at the time of the destruction of the One Ruling Ring. At best the abilities of any surviving ring would be seriously compromised. Perhaps you've accounted for this with the Mouth of Sauron's dessicated form, but I'm just wondering if their is an error in the story logic that needs to be corrected. In a similar vein,
This gets a little difficult because I vaguely recall something about the Lesser Rings of Power possibly being used to entrap other, less powerful mortals, into serving and becoming either normal wraiths or some kind of Lesser Ringwraiths, but these generally are lesser beings from those we meet within the stories. This may be an error on my part though. Anyway, it should say that to destroy a Nazgul, one of the Nine, you would need to destroy it's controlling ring, one of the Nine rings for Mortal Men doomed to die, or the One Ruling Ring. The Nine Rings can be destroyed as per any other enchanted item, it does not need to be thrown into Mount Doom. I also remember something about Sauron taking the Rings from the Nazgul prior to the events of LOTR. So during the TOR timeline, the characters would have to defeat Sauron to destroy a Nazgul's ring. Or at least successfully sneak into Baradur, rob Sauron, and make it out (good luck!). Again, no idea if Sauron's taking back the Rings is canon or not. For any of the hypothetical Lesser Ringwraiths, the same thing is true, although it is probable that they are wearing their own Lesser Rings of Power during an official TOR campaign. These Rings are far more susceptible to mundane attacks though. So Gimli's axe-cut might very well have worked on these. The general idea behind my comments is that we have no idea how another LM is going to use the Nazgul, so while they need to comply with canon, they should also be as universal as possible to require less customization to fit into other campaigns. -------------------- Garn!
I have yet to read the books thoroughly. |
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Beleg |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 09:12 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 314 Member No.: 2548 Joined: 22-March 12 ![]() |
I'm definitely being dense here, but what do TotW and TfW stand for? :S
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trystero |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 09:58 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 31 Member No.: 2916 Joined: 4-September 12 ![]() |
"TfW" is the Tales from Wilderland campaign book, I'd assume. Not immediately certain what "TotW" would be... maybe a slip-up for the same book?
-------------------- "Self-discipline isn't everything; look at Pol Pot." —Helen Fielding, Bridget Jones: The Edge of Reason
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Tolwen |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 10:46 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 430 Member No.: 862 Joined: 21-January 10 ![]() |
Hi Garn,
This kind of use is (or better was) an unfortunate MERP tradition. First they made profligate use of 'Lesser Rings' throughout their modules and second gave them various life-extending powers. This is a point where the source is very clear. Tolkien (through the words of Gandalf IIRC) says that there were a number of 'Lesser Rings' which were perilous for mortals, but also affirms they did not have any life-extending powers of any sort. As said, a tradition very unfortunate and hard to eradicate root and branch ![]()
IIRC that's in the LotR that Sauron has recovered the Nine and through them controls the Nazgûl. It might be in UT though. But either way, it's documented.
See above. Lesser Rings do not bestow any kind of extended life for a mortal.
Cheers Tolwen -------------------- Visit Other Minds - a free international journal devoted to roleplaying and scholarly interests in J.R.R. Tolkien's works
Other Minds now has a new group in Facebook. Come and join there! |
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trystero |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 10:56 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 31 Member No.: 2916 Joined: 4-September 12 ![]() |
In LotR, Gandalf says in "The Shadow of the Past" that "the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself,", but in "The Council of Elrond" he says, "The Nine the Nazgûl keep." So it's not entirely clear where the Nine Rings are located: are they in Barad-dûr, or are the Nazgûl still wearing them? Edit: I found the Unfinished Tales reference you mentioned, Tolwen: in "The Hunt for the Ring", Tolkien writes that the Nazgûl "were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which [Sauron] now himself held." I'd count UT as less canonical than LotR, so this is not necessarily proof: Loremasters can, as ever, decide what's canon in their particular games. Edit Again: I suppose "The Nine the Nazgûl keep" could be an example of archaic word-order inversion, and that it could be a way of saying that Sauron uses the Nine Rings to keep the Nazgûl (in the sense of "keeping" a pet or a servant). Bit of a stretch, perhaps, but it does harmonize the three references. :-) -------------------- "Self-discipline isn't everything; look at Pol Pot." —Helen Fielding, Bridget Jones: The Edge of Reason
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Halbarad |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 11:25 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 641 Member No.: 2053 Joined: 24-October 11 ![]() |
Yeah, sorry, my bad....
TotW is actually how I keep referring to Tales from Wilderland. ![]() |
Tolwen |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 12:41 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 430 Member No.: 862 Joined: 21-January 10 ![]() |
That sounds like a good solution. The LotR contains two passages which may be seen as contradicting each other, and the UT reference strengthens one of the LotR positions. Then the interpretation you suggest is fair. Cheers Tolwen -------------------- Visit Other Minds - a free international journal devoted to roleplaying and scholarly interests in J.R.R. Tolkien's works
Other Minds now has a new group in Facebook. Come and join there! |
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Rich H |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 01:46 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 882 Member No.: 2664 Joined: 15-May 12 ![]() |
Or a simpler explanation would be Gandalf was wrong in saying the Nazgul keep their rings. I have no problem with the wise not always being on the mark - particularly with almost unknowable details such as this kind of thing. -------------------- 1) The Fellowship of the Free - a TOR Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=3424
2) Three's Company - a TOR Hobbit-only Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=4081 3) A collection of additional and house rules for TOR: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Additiona...use%20Rules.pdf 4) Alternate Journey rules: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Rules%20-...ney%20Rules.pdf 5) Anyone for Hobbit Cricket? If so, check out my rules here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Hobbit%20Cricket.pdf 6) Keep those TOR character sheets clean, use this Scratch Sheet instead: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...tch%20Sheet.pdf 7) TOR Character Sheet (use with Scratch Sheet): https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf 8) TOR Tale of Years Sheet: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf 9) Adventure - To Journey's End and the Eagles' Eyrie: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/To%20Jour...%27%20Eyrie.pdf 10) Adventure - Dawn Comes Early: ... Coming Soon! |
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Garn |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 04:23 PM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 938 Member No.: 2432 Joined: 10-February 12 ![]() |
DUDE! Are you trying to get lynched by rabid Tolkien Fans? ![]() Lolz! -------------------- Garn!
I have yet to read the books thoroughly. |
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Rich H |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 04:27 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 882 Member No.: 2664 Joined: 15-May 12 ![]() |
![]() -------------------- 1) The Fellowship of the Free - a TOR Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=3424
2) Three's Company - a TOR Hobbit-only Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=4081 3) A collection of additional and house rules for TOR: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Additiona...use%20Rules.pdf 4) Alternate Journey rules: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Rules%20-...ney%20Rules.pdf 5) Anyone for Hobbit Cricket? If so, check out my rules here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Hobbit%20Cricket.pdf 6) Keep those TOR character sheets clean, use this Scratch Sheet instead: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...tch%20Sheet.pdf 7) TOR Character Sheet (use with Scratch Sheet): https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf 8) TOR Tale of Years Sheet: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf 9) Adventure - To Journey's End and the Eagles' Eyrie: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/To%20Jour...%27%20Eyrie.pdf 10) Adventure - Dawn Comes Early: ... Coming Soon! |
Halbarad |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 05:21 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 641 Member No.: 2053 Joined: 24-October 11 ![]() |
That 4th Age Mouth of Sauron is pretty damn tough Robin.
![]() Regarding the Poisonous Whispers I quite like the name, which came about from the notion of lies being used to poison the mind of an individual. However, I do see your point Garn. Pernicious Whispers is good, as is Insidious Whispers. First of the three to rack up six votes it is (if anyone is interested enough to vote that is). ![]() Thinking about the problems that you envisage Garn. I don't know that I want to dilute the effects of the Dreadful Spell. This is, after all, the Mouth of Sauron and Social Encounters with him are going to be rare and 'dreadful'.... I might think about lowering the Hate Points total though to 8. This would mean that even if all the circumstances were in his favour, the most Shadow Points he could potentiallly foist upon a fellowship of four characters is 2. A lone character, unlucky enough to fall into his clutches is in real trouble though. ![]() |
Beleg |
Posted: Oct 5 2012, 09:31 PM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 314 Member No.: 2548 Joined: 22-March 12 ![]() |
I vote for Pernicious Whispers. I like the word Pernicious
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Caldarion |
Posted: Oct 6 2012, 12:43 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 20 Member No.: 1880 Joined: 3-September 11 ![]() |
Insidious whispers is my vote. The word just sounds evil
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Poosticks7 |
Posted: Oct 6 2012, 06:11 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 302 Member No.: 2637 Joined: 30-April 12 ![]() |
I'll just throw Mendacious Whispers in the pot as well. Although Insidious and Perfidious do also work.
Although all three of those are Latin in origin, so maybe just Deceitful Whispers or False Tongue would work. (Of course only the LM is going to know what it is called so it really doesn't matter that much). -------------------- |
Beleg |
Posted: Oct 6 2012, 10:58 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 314 Member No.: 2548 Joined: 22-March 12 ![]() |
Caldarion, it's the wonder that is google
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CheeseWyrm |
Posted: Oct 6 2012, 10:59 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 149 Member No.: 2521 Joined: 12-March 12 ![]() |
Hmmm.... if the Mouth of Sauron has an opportunity to discourse over a period of time with his target then I say Insidious Influence (or Whispers), however if LMs want tMoS to have a more direct & overt power over his audience then Pernicious (or Baneful) Utterance may be more appropriate.
The choice really depends on how you see it being applied... a subtle influence over time or a verbal whammy assault. Perhaps this servant of Sauron/Morgoth has recourse to both - hence his efficacy as tMoS?? -------------------- 'life wasn't meant to be easy ... it was meant to be cheesy!'
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Robin Smallburrow |
Posted: Dec 18 2012, 02:17 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 151 Member No.: 1930 Joined: 14-September 11 ![]() |
As promised, here is the full write up of The Mouth of Sauron/Hermuor, with stats.
Comments & feedback would be appreciated! The Mouth of Sauron (aka Herumor in Fourth Age) The first time the name Herumor appears is that he was a powerful lord amongst the Black Numenoreans of the late Second Age in the area surrounding Umbar, his fate was unknown but it is conjectured by the wise that he along with Fuinur allied themselves with Sauron, and so was defeated when Sauron was defeated by the Last Alliance. The first Mouth of Sauron was originally the ambassador for Lord Herumor named Malithor (Urzahil in Adunaic), but in actual fact was really Sauron’s agent at Umbar, and indeed Malithor had sworn to serve Sauron soon after the Downfall of Numenor (in SA 3330). Malithor’s true loyalties were perceived by Isildur, who was the first person to call him ‘Mouth of Sauron’, and cursed Malithor that he would forget his own identity, which indeed proved true. The title 'Mouth of Sauron' became a hereditary title held by Malithor and his descendants, so by the time of the War of the Ring it is now held by a descendant whose life has also been greatly and unnaturally prolonged by sorcery, and he ranked second to the Witch King in the Dark Lord’s hierarchy of servants, and probably knew more of magic than any mortal being before him, his title being The Lieutenant of Barad-Dûr. The Red Book of Westmarch gives an account of this individual as being encountered by the Captains of the West before the Black Gate of Mordor, as the Herald and Ambassador of Sauron, yet it is recorded that the Mouth was very insolent in his behavior to the Captains, yet he was not killed (as some other versions suggest), when the terms were refused he galloped back through the Black Gate and his fate was unknown…. Until now! The Mouth was pitched into an abyss during the collapse and tumult accompanying the destruction of the One Ring, whilst still riding through Udûn, and he fell a long distance, enough for a normal mortal man to die. But The Mouth had been taught sorcery and magic beyond the reach of most men, so although his body was shattered, he kept his spirit inside his body through sorcery and refused the Summons, long enough for him to encounter the orc Grizash far down in the Undeeps below Udûn, and through the orc Grizash he located Melkor’s Throne. The surviving spirit of The Mouth ‘remembered’ its former identity enough to remember the name Herumor, so it called itself by this name. Thus when Herumor’s spirit touched the Throne, Morgoth became aware of him, and realized that here was a useful servant, as distinct from Grizash who was just a lowly orc, and immediately took possession of Herumor’s mind, and through him contact was made with other Shadow minions, who then carried Herumor and The Throne back up to the inhabited areas and to the former Sauronic fortress of Barad Sereg, which had amazingly escaped both the destruction during Sauron’s fall and detection by the Army of Elessar in the ensuing years, as the fortress was now in a secret vale surrounded by mountains. The new entity used all the power he had the strength for to veil the secret fortress and also to place a spell of confusion upon all paths and secret passes leading to it, thus helping to keep him safe in these early years when he was still very weak. The only word that reached King Elessar at this time was a rumour that a Lieutenant of Sauron had survived, yet despite much searching Barad Sereg remained hidden. Written sources from this time reveal the frustration of the Army leaders at being unable to find this mysterious Lieutenant. So Herumor remained hidden in Barad Sereg, gathering and breeding new forces, spying on the doings of the Reunited Kingdom and using servants to weaken Gondor to the point that he feels strong enough to come into the open. This he now feels strong enough to do, and the PC’s enter the story with Herumor’s latest machination, which is to make it look that Umbar is responsible for the kidnapping of Prince Elatar of Gondor so that Umbar and Gondor will go to war against each other, further weakening Gondor enough that Herumor can now lay claim to Mordor openly. Appearance At the time of the War of the Ring the Mouth is recognizably still a man, an imposing figure of 6’7” tall, made taller by his helm, which is a tall helm fashioned of fish scales with various dark jewels, such helms were worn by Ar-Pharazon’s followers prior to the Downfall of Numenor, and it resembles a diving fish with apertures replacing the fishes ‘eyes’, allowing the wearer to see, the ‘mouth’ is open, exposing the wearer’s mouth and nostrils, the helm has nine ‘teeth’ that protect the wearer’s face, whilst the lower ‘jaw’ protects the neck. The Mouth was so conscious of remaining secretive and anonymous that when not wearing the helm he would often wear a mask that disguised his actual face. After the Downfall of Sauron and the Mouth’s fall into the Abyss, Herumor continues to wear the Numenorean Battle Helm and the armour of the former Mouth of Sauron, but now does so for a very different reason – his body is so broken and disfigured as to strike fear into the bravest hearts, thus his current servants now warn to ‘Beware if our master removes his helm’. Herumor now appears as an animated skeleton, but with some flesh still sticking to the body, and any who see Herumor’s true appearance must roll vs fear. When Herumor is ‘possessed’ by Morgoth, his face actually ‘twists’ in feature to resemble Morgoth’s own face. Powers/abilities As mentioned earlier, when possessed by Morgoth Herumor’s powers are virtually god-like as Morgoth is able to affect the area around Herumor due to the link made with Morgoth whilst Herumor is linked to the throne. This link is gradually growing stronger as time goes by, thus one event that will happen is that Mount Doom will burst into flame once the link is strong enough for Herumor/Morgoth to control the Mountain, in fact Herumor tried once before but failed, this was the earthquake of two years earlier that destroyed the Dwarf hold in the Mountains of Shadow. When not possessed by Morgoth, Herumor is an undead wraith of similar powers and abilities to the Ringwraiths who served Sauron. Indeed, Herumor has just like his former dark master placed much of his spirit into the ring he wears. Thus, Herumor’s abilities include: Bladeshattering : A normal weapon that strikes Herumor’s corpse will shatter. With better made or enchanted weapons the GM will make a roll depending on how powerful the weapon is – this effect does not work on Aulë’s Sword. Fear: Being Undead, Herumor’s presence strikes fear into all around him, at the same level as a Ringwraith (indeed, treat Herumor as similar to a Ringwraith in most matters). Perceive Rings of Power: Having been taught by Sauron himself, Herumor is a master at detecting any magical rings, even more so than the standard ability to Perceive Magic. Persistent Existence: Herumor’s own secret is that most of his spirit resides in his own ring (see below), just as his former master had done. Thus while his ring continues to exist, if Herumor’s corpse is slain, his spirit will ‘reform’, how long and where depends on random factors decided by the GM. Undead Senses: Being Undead, Herumor cannot see normally, in fact sunlight is one of his weaknesses (see below). In darkness Herumor can ‘see’ normally, and also in the Spirit World. He can also smell the blood of living creatures, if close enough to be able to tell racial types etc. Wraith form: In the Spirit World Herumor appears as he did when formally the Mouth of Sauron, as a tall man, but also pale and more gaunt than when alive. As an Undead, he does not need to sleep, eat or drink. Weaknesses: The link b/w Herumor and Morgoth gets progressively weaker during daylight, and is destroyed by the noon sun, gradually reforming again during the afternoon. Thus Herumor is most vulnerable at noon. At this time also, his senses are most affected by sunlight, which is why he hides in his lair nearly all the time. If Herumor in spirit form went outside, he also finds it difficult to cross running water or other common aspects of nature, such as fire, and if confronted by normal fire must make a test to resist fear. He is also vulnerable to one who invokes one of the Valar in faith, especially Elbereth or Varda. Herumor’s physical body or corpse is incapable of moving by itself, so often it is carried by his servants from the throne room to his main lair (see below). Magic: Herumor retains all the knowledge he formally had as The Mouth of Sauron, thus is a master magician, especially of sorcery, and knows all sorcery and necromancy spells. MERP Stats: Level 50 Black Numenorean (Undead Wraith). Ig-91, It 99, Pr 96, App 05 (others not applicable). Skill Bonuses: Perception 140, Read Runes 90, Use Items 102, Channeling 45, Acting 87, Falsification 60. Math 45, Meditation 75, Public Speaking 175, Signalling 84, Spell Mastery 124, Stargazing 89, Trickery 95, Weather Watching 60, Administration 105, Appraisal 79, Diplomacy 120, Strategy 86, Tactics 75. Decipher LOTR Stats: Attributes – Bearing 11 (+2), Perception 12 (+3), Wits 14 (+4). Physical attributes are considered zero. Reactions – Willpower +5, Wisdom +4. Orders: Noble, Magician, Wizard. Order Abilities: Courtier, Spellcasting 3, Spell Specialty (Sorcery), Wizard Spellcasting 2. Advancements : 40 . Skills: Debate (Parley) +7, Insight +4, Intimidate (Fear, Torture) +10, Language: Adunaic, Black Speech, Sindarin, Quenya, Westron. Lore: Group (Black Numenoreans, Undead) +5; Lore: History (Numenor, Umbar) +6, Lore: Magic +7 The One Ring Stats: Mouth of Sauron as Human (2951 -3019 TA) Attribute Level: 8 Personality 5 Movement 4 Perception 4 Survival 2 Custom 4 Vocation 4 Endurance 30 Hate 10 Parry 6 Armour 3d + 5 (due to Helm) Weapon: Skill DMG Edge Injury Called Shot Longsword 6 7 10 19 Disarm Bow 5 6 9 16 Pierce Dagger 3 4 10 14 Pierce Commanding Voice: Reduce The Mouth's Hate score by one to restore one Hate point to all allies involved in the confrontation (not including The Mouth himself). He also gets +4 to any skills utilising his voice (Persuade etc.). Dreadful Spells: Poisonous Whispers - During any social interaction, reduce his Hate point by one to force a character to take a Corruption test at TN16. Failure means that the character gains a Shadow point and may not spend Hope points to augment his Die rolls for as long as he remains in the presence of the Mouth of Sauron. The Mouth of Sauron may spend several points of Hate at the same time to affect multiple characters. The first time in a day The Mouth uses this ability he does not need to spend a Hate point. Hatred (Dunedain): When the Mouth is confronting Dunedain, all his Weapon skills and Attack forms (including spells) are considered to be favoured. The Mouth of Sauron as Undead (Fourth Age) "Herumor" ATTRIBUTE LEVEL 9 (gains 1 from Lesser Ring) ENDURANCE 45 HATE 10 (2 extra from Lesser Ring) PARRY 5 ARMOUR 3d+5 (due to Helm & Robes) SKILLS Personality 4 Survival 1 Movement n/a Custom 4 Perception 5 Vocation 5 SPECIAL ABILITIES Bladeshattering, Perceive Rings of Power, Persistent Existence, Wraith Form: see above, these need to be judged by the Loremaster. Morgul Blade: The Mouth's Longsword when it hits successfully with an Eye result also has a Poison - an affected character is automatically considered Weary until Healed, and character must also make a Corruption Test or gain 1 Shadow Point (This is also the Called Shot for this weapon). Dreadful Spells (as above for human). Bewilder: Reduce Herumor's Hate by 1 to reduce a foe's Parry to the basic combat TN of their stance. Weaknesses: Fear of Fire/Water: Loses one point of Hate in first round of combat against a foe wielding some sort of fire or water. Hate Sunlight: Loses one point of Hate at end of first round of combat if exposed to sunlight, he is also at -2 during daylight, -4 at midday. Strike Fear: Reduce Herumor's Hate by 1 to force all foes to make a Fear test (usually against TN 14). Items of Note Black Robes - a gift from his former Master Sauron, Herumor wears black robes that have survived his fall into the depths of Middle Earth. These robes seem to absorb light and are disturbing for any to look directly at, those who do may become queasy and dizzy. The main purpose of the robes is to aid with Hiding and to make it difficult for any to detect Herumor’s presence. Any light sources are dimmed by these robes. Necklace - this necklace (also a gift from Sauron) amplifies the wearer’s voice, allowing him to be heard over great distances and also to be understood no matter what language the wearer speaks, hence ‘The Mouth’ epithet that was given to him. Ring - a ring of black steel, a Lesser Ring and a gift from his Master that currently contains most of Herumor’s spirit, the ring is on the second finger of the left hand of Herumor’s corpse. Helm - the body of Herumor also still wears his helm, an all black helm which is recognizable as a Numenorean Helm as worn by noble warriors in the late Second Age (a PC who makes a History: Numenor roll of Average Difficulty will realize this). The helm adds to Herumor’s defence against mundane attacks. Hope you like him! Robin S. ![]() -------------------- by Robin Smallburrow
TOR documents created by me, you can view and download by clicking these links: Magic in Middle Earth V.2 The Dragon's Ring List of Aids V.2 Fan Supplement V.2 A Kidnapping in Umbar |
Throrsgold |
Posted: Dec 18 2012, 05:58 AM
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 295 Member No.: 2128 Joined: 9-November 11 ![]() |
Those would actually be from me (including the typos that I never quite got around to fixing) ... with (more than) a little help from my friends on the forum (including the format). Did anyone else hear something like The Beatles just then? Anyway, I post at this time to suggest the following ... for a "cleaner" version (albeit, still with the typos), see my signature for the Adversaries link. Someday, I may even find the time to fix the typos. ![]() Great work on the Mouth of Sauron! -------------------- My TOR Resources:
| Using Your Own Dice | Names of Middle-earth | New Adversaries v1.0 | -------------------- President/Owner of Bardic Tales, Inc. LotRO Contact Info Server: Elendilmir Kinship: Cuivet Pelin Annun Character(s): Alcaril, Isenhewer, Necry and Toland |
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Halbarad |
Posted: Dec 18 2012, 09:05 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 641 Member No.: 2053 Joined: 24-October 11 ![]() |
Very nice indeed Robin.
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Arthadan_ |
Posted: Dec 18 2012, 10:14 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 72 Member No.: 2767 Joined: 29-June 12 ![]() |
Herumor is also the name of the main villaib of "the New Shadow", a Lord of the Rings sequel by Tolkien himself which was only started. I guess Robin borrowed it from there. By the way, the name Malithor and the fact that Isildur is the first one to call him Mouth of Sauron comes from the Isildur novel by Brian K. Crawford, now banished due to copyrights problems. I revised the text with Brian for the second edition. Nice to see how is blending within the legendarium. ![]()
I'm not sure Khamûl would agree with that! I'd change "magic" for "sorcery", which is the name of the "evil magic" in Tolkien's books.
Sorcery is a kind of magic, so "had been taught sorcery and magic" doesn't work well in my opinion. The Fate of Men is to go beyond the Circles of the World. Sauron managed to break this rule with the Nine Rings and Isildur's Curse made the people of the Paths of the Dead stay, but a dying man by his own power alone achieving that is hard to believe. I did a research about Necromancy in Middle-earth. I'd have him surviving in his own body without the possesion stuff. Then, Morgoth is chained beyond Arda and his throne wasn't magical. And the whole hidden fortress waiting for him, I wonder where you want to place it. Moreover, Tolkien wrote that Sauron was the last of the great evils (meaning Valar/Maiar) and this is sound a bit too much like Sauron himself. Of course you can ignore this, but I would suggest something more original. Here you are some options: - Threat from Morenorë: It's a continent south of Harad and we know nothing of it. Maybe the Mouth fled there and found new allies. - Object of power: Although Sauron and the big bad guys are no more, they could have left some toys behind which could be used by mortal Men. - Necromancers from the East: Men messing with the darkest form of Sorcery could be his allies. |
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