Cthonic? I'm guessing that's the adjectival version of Cthulu?

Yes... Its a description for a particular type of being... Reading up on Old Tom as an ancient unknowable creature makes me think of the associations with Great Cthulhu and other such Lovecraftian monsters... Tolkien with some HP sauce - what a terrible delight!

Even better. One of my players loves Lovecraft and another one rather likes him. Tom is looking better and better (or worse and worse) by the minute

Groovy!

So I was thinking about pitting my players against Tom in the 2nd Age (under the guise of the jovial chap he is in Fellowship of course)
Since he seems confined to his own little demesne, would it be feasible to have the players be the ones responsible for his 'imprisoning'? Perhaps through the help of gandalf (hence his greater knowledge of Tom in comparison to those such as Elrond)

I'd personally go with it happening in the 4th Age allowing your players and you the freedom to really "go for it" and express yourselves fully. If you're doing something like this then why limit yourself to a previous age? Remove the limits on canon and develop your own ideas in freedom without the host of other "Tolkien NPCs" getting in your way. After all, you're using Tom B as your dark antagonist and introducing some Lovecraftian elements so in my opinion all other bets like "the 4th age is the Age of Men" are off. In fact such a theme/belief may add to the horror of the central idea...

It's an entertaining read, but IMHO the logic of the author is quite flawed. He speculates and interprets things in a way that fit to the supposedly pre-existing view.

While an entertaining read (as said above), its "suspension of disbelief" is IMO not high enough to make it a worthwile spin-off interpretation. It tastes too much of taking various bits out of context and re-arranging them to fit to the mentioned pre-existing view. Thus it is - for me - much too shallow and biased in its argumentation to take seriously. Entertainment without too high standards is another matter of course

Only my 2c though

Cheers
Tolwen

Being a purist, and no harm in that, I think any direction this thread would logically take is a path you are going to struggle to go down; and that seems pretty evident from the posts you've thus far made! Although they've been spot on they're limiting Beleg to the strict canon and he's obviously looking to do something beyond that. Perhaps it's best letting him "go for it" now that the thread's developed and give him ideas for what he wants to do?

Indeed I am a purist in taking what Tolkien designed and set as strict. For my personal taste there is so much room within his framework to satisyfy all my creative and scholarly ambitions.

That does not mean that someone not feeling so bound by Tolkien's writings should not enjoy other, more liberal views.

As everyone here, I try to express my personal views - mostly with the reasoning behind it - and am happy if others find that useful. Even if it only serves to help in making a bit more clear in discussions what might be viewed still as "canonical" (a thing already a bit elusive) and what is probably more beyond it.

If this serves to make decisions more easy I am happy to have contributed a bit to that

Cheers
Tolwen

Purism. Such a pain huh? I'm not quite as 'pure' as you Tolwen, but I try
Hence why I'm trying to work out how to do this without impacting canon. I thought messing around with Tom during the 2nd Age would be a safe bet since so little is known about him and most of the 2nd Age material covers happenings elsewhere. I agree that the article on him is very 'out there', but that's the beauty. It has a real 'what the...' factor which would work great on my players

Besides, sometimes flawed logic makes for the best outcomes

I would only worry about canon when you're using it to support your ideas as, let's face it, you're letting Cthulhu and the Yog Sothoth eat Middle Earth. Potentially. I really think the 4th Age is the timeframe to place this in as per my post earlier.

Not to mention, I very tentatively recall Tom saying something about how he was "first and will be last" with regards to inhabiting Middle-earth.

In the Absurd Flights of Fantasy category: I kind of got the impression that he might be a meta-creation or fundamental aspect of creation Ainur. So maybe he's responsible for swirling cosmic dust into eddies sufficient to form planets, but at the end of time he's got to scatter the dust. Well, you get the idea.

Yep, the chap's Cthulhu in yellow wellies. Definitely.

... And when the old magicks fail and fall in the 4th Age then the Age of Man will know their Master. And the world will scream into darkness and dust. He who is fatherless. The first and the last.

Ah to hell with it. I'll use the 4th Age and pretend Tolwen nobody told me the stuff Tolkien did write
That way I don't feel quite so guilty about turning old Tom into a Lovecraftian nightmare

Mwahahahahaaaa!

Ah - the well proven ostrich policy

Have fun and show no mercy!!!

Cheers
Tolwen

Yep. If I pretend it doesn't exist, I don't have to worry about it

BTW, I believe it was Robin Smallburrow who posted information on a Mouth of Sauron scenario where the Mouth was working to bring forth Morgoth via a relic from Utumno. Cannot recall the topic name exactly, but I know it's in here somewhere. He did a great write-up of the NPC as I recall.

Beleg

I apologise for not replying to your interesting topic sooner, but as I said elsewhere have just returned from holidays!

Your idea has already been done by others - last year I did a survey of the internet on all Fourth Age material I could find, the one of particular interest to you is called 'The Farbanks Folios', and can be accessed at this website:

http://www.milesmathis.com/farbindex.html

I compiled a summary of these ideas, you can access them here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65632786/IDEAS%20F...KS%20FOLIOS.doc

As Tolwen has discussed earlier, the use of new 'Dark Lords' is not really canonical according to Tolkien. However, I disagreed (shock horror!) with Tolkien on this point, because I felt it made logical sense for 'new evils' to claim 'legitimacy' as it were with the past. (Think: what would you do if you were an evil sorceror in the Fourth Age - you would claim to be the next Dark Lord, so as to gain more support!).

My overall campaign idea you can access here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65632786/4th%20Age...ign%20Ideas.doc

And my Fourth Age Chronology (also available in the Other Minds issue) you can access here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65632786/Fourth%20...nal%20Draft.doc

Use Trotter's search on 'Mouth of Sauron' and you will find my TOR stats for the Mouth

Hope this is of use!


Robin S.

That is indeed compatible with Tolkien's view. The point is though, that this may not be a "mythological" Dark Lord (i.e. an Ainu in bodily form like Morgoth or Sauron - and even if on a much lesser power scale).
A mortal sorceror like the Mouth of Sauron would be OK, as he will eventually die and either others follow him or his legacy crumbles. Of course he may claim to be much more powerful or Sauron redivivus by displays of sorcery or clever tricks. In a game it doesn't matter if it is really true when the characters or other protagonists have no way of easily blowing this cover.

It is thus "only" the overtly powerful and privileged (in terms of longevity and innate power) Ainur (e.g. Maiar) that are excluded as "Dark Lords" in the Fourth Age. Humans or (very unlikely) Elves that claim this title are possible, but are naturally also on a power level that men can deal with themselves without help from the Valar. Thus in a sense the Valar's mission as guardians of Arda has been fulfilled with the final overthrow of Sauron. Every "Dark Lord" (if any) that comes after (apart from Dagor Dagorath) is well within the capabilities of the Secondborn to deal with.

Cheers
Tolwen

Robin

Thanks for all the stuff. I'll have to have a look through it all today

Tolwen, is there much information on the Dagor Dagorlad, or did Tolkien merely state that that was when Morgoth would return?

It is not much, and as usual with Tolkien, it changed over time. The earliest accounts mention this name (Dagor Dagorath), and its description is very reminiscent of the nordic Ragnarök. Here Melkor returns at the end of days, but is then finally and forever defeated and killed by Túrin (who returned from the Dead). Then a presumably new and better world is built on the ashes of the old one.

Later Tolkien developed it further and it became a bit more abstract and "christian". In the HoMe 10 (in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth) we find the more recent ideas. Here a distinction is made between the Arda Marred] (the one we know, faulty, damaged and with a strong Melkor ingredient in the very substance of the whole of Middle-earth) and the Ara Rebuilt (IIRC; it may another term). The latter is the one that come into existence after the end of the marred "version" and will be good and without evil. There is no longer mentioned a titanic final battle that will defeat evil finally. This easy and "heroic" concept is no longer valid (at least not in this form), as evil is not only manifested in a dedicated form or person that can be slain, but as a thing that permeated the matter of the world. How should this be overcome by a battle per se? Tolkien speculates that Melkor may "recover" a good part of this dissipated "energy" that he gave into the world to gain mastery over it. Then he may one day return to exact his vengeance. Then he may be defeated again, and since he himself has retracted so much of his dissipated self from the substance of Middle-earth that a final healing may be possible. Whether this a totally new world or just a Middle-earth cleansed from the dissipated self of Melkor is left open IIRC.
It is speculated that Eru may finally come into the world as a saviour to free his creation from Melkor. Here you can see Tolkien's evolution from a pagan and "primitive" concept to more christian-compatible ideas for the - much - later history of his world.

It should be mentioned that this last version is the one that is more contemporary with the writing of the LotR and thus represents - more or less - Tolkien's cosmologic concept when he wrote the LotR and later.

Cheers
Tolwen

Thanks Tolwen. So I take it that in the more contemporary version Turin doesn't return from the dead, and Melkor is defeated predominantly by the Valar or Eru himself?

Robin, the Sword of Aule you conceived for your campaign in order to defeat Herumor, is that the same Sword of Aule that appears in an issue of Other Minds?

I'm bot sure if Túrin has been fully deleted in these later developments. I'll have to check with the text and post a more definite answer later.

Cheers
Tolwen

Awesome, thanks

Beleg

Yes, The Sword of Aule appeared in the Other Minds issue on dwarves (all part of how I see the return of Durin). And in case you ask, this campaign I am currently rewriting for TOR (see the thread on current projects by fans)

Robin S.

Ok, having checked the books, it is fascinating (again).

The very archaic early "Ragnarök" concept is not further developed, but Tolkien becomes more abstract and christian in his designs (as I already said).

The Eldar - speaking through the person of Finrod - are longlived (i.e. for the existence of Arda), but have neither knowledge nor hope what comes after and they fear their existence may be unmade then. He explains this with the image of a slow, but tireless hunter catching them in the end, and it causes a certain sadness.
In his conversation with Andreth (of the folk of Bëor), she tells him of those of the "Old Hope" who teach that at the end the One will descend into Arda, save his children and redress all evils. This gives Finrod hope that even the Elves will have their role in the time after and that finally everything will become good. He speculates that it was one of the intentions of the One for Men to bring the Eldar this Hope. He also marvels at Men to whom the One had originally directly spoken (but not to the Quendi) and it seems he told them more than even the Valar knew about their role and final fate.
He envies Men for their gift of death and their permission to quickly leave the tiring circles of the world. Ironically, this longevity of the Eldar is the chief thing Men envy the Eldar for. He assumes that this (and the general estrangement of the two kindreds) is Morgoth's work.

Thus in the new version there is no mention of a titanic clash, but a more christian motif of deliverance. Tolkien becomes very unspecific about these later days, as it is no longer important for his world design, and the roles of the Children and the One are emphasized at the expense of the more tangible and archaic "Battle at the end of Days".

Cheers
Tolwen

Wow, thanks Tolwen. You're right about it become more Christian, half of Tolkien's newer idea rings a great deal of the book of Revelations. Thanks for checking for me. I shall have to procure a set of the Histories and Letters for myself

I love Athrabeth... BTW it clearly shows that elves and men were intended to compliment each other:

Elves as "guardians" or "preservers" - tied to Arda (even after death), exhibiting greater control on it in songs an art, being perhaps more sensitive to Arda and less to themselves.

Humans are not only "guests" but also "changers" - or more specific, vessels of change. They are able to act outside of "currents of destiny", being tied not to circles of Arda but outside it. They are restless, always looking for new things, for a change. It seems that in beginning they were closely united with Eru in a way (hearing his voice), and after death they go to him (and then on, to create Arda Renewed).

This is reflected also in the greatest temptations both races faced: I believe that for the elves it was to use the power they have to stop Arda from changing - that lead to forgings of the Rings of power, and also to retreat of elves from Arda to non-changning Valinore, which was never intended in the primary creation.

To men it was to revert their destiny: leaving Arda and serving as vessels of its renewal - in other words, to face their "death" in Arda. It is clear that even in the beginning the men were not supposed to be immortal, but their death was a matter of choice of time - that was renewed with Numenoreans.

As Tolwen pointed out, where men envied elves their immortality, the elves envied the men ironically the same.

LOVE the Bombadil rewrite, very nice.

Obviously Tom is the Green Man archetype and there are one or two holes in the logic but brilliant reinterpretation - especially to play on the tolkien nut players who think they already know everything about Middle Earth.

For those who defend Bombadil - narratively he's a disaster - he undermines the entire concepts of threat, ultimate evil etc etc. The book can survive it but films need to be more streamlined and he would have completely undermined the narrative if he'd been included.

(In fact I'd say he's the second biggest mistake in LOTR. THe first being the eagles and the fact we have to justify why they don't just drop the ring into mount doom. Sauron would spot them coming? It's not their concern so they wouldn't? Hmmm....sounds a bit weak to me, even though I use it anytime anyone else brings it up)

I usually say that they didn't just fly to Mordor because the Eagles don't have to. They're not under Gandalf or Radagast's control, or anybody else's for that matter, they merely help out when they feel their assistance could be useful, when it pleases them. I'm pretty sure expecting the eagles to say, attack Gundabad, would be silly, since they don't really have any real reason to