Hi everyone,

I know i mentioned something about this a month ago or so in the older Magic rules thread Magic Rules Thread, but since this is going to be fairly detailed, I thought I'd start a new one.

To begin with, I tried to approach magic with as much fidelity to Prof. Tolkien's mythology as I could, so I'll start with that. We know that according to unfinished tales, there are five wizards. Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and the two blue wizards, Alatar and Pallando. We also know the Valar from whom they were "sponsored".
Gandalf was Manwe/Varda, Saruman was Aule, Radagast was Yavanna, Alatar was Orome, and Pallando was Mandos/Nienna.

Now I know some of you may wondering where I'm going with this. Wait for it...

Ok so now we know the Istari, and the Valar from whom they serve. Now it's on to Magic. I wanted magic to represent Middle Earth itself since magic is supposed to be of Middle Earth, not outside it. For this I turned to the three rings of the elves Nenya, Vilya, and Narya. Each ring represents an element of Arda (or middle earth), Vilya is the Ring of Air, Nenya is the Ring of Water, and Narya is the Ring of Fire.

So we have three elements for our magic: Water, Air, and Fire.
Just out of coincidence, Manwe is Valar of Air, Aule is Valar of Earth(as it pertains to stone and the mountains) and the forge (so fire), and Yavanna is the Valar of the Earth (As it pertains to all living things). Which matches our three "known" Istari, Gandalf - Manwe, Saruman - Aule, and Radagast - Yavanna.
I had a little trouble at this point since Ulmo is the Valar of Water, but according to Tolkien, he did not sponsor an Istari. So Radagast/Yavanna got Water.

So here's what I came up with. Its still a work in progress, but I wanted to show everyone what I've put together so far.
I decided to go with three overarching "Paths" of magic that a character can learn, so I tied the three elements to each of the main stats in the game and since there are six skill groups, I tied two groups to each of the Stats.

Body = Water (Since water is life)
- Movement & Survival
Heart = Fire (Passion, Patriotism, etc)
- Personality & Vocation
Wits = Air (Air has traditionally been associated with Intelligence)
- Custom & Perception

Here's my idea drawn out.



Mechanics and how spell casting works is on the way. but here's some basics.

1. To find your Base Path rating, simply subtract your Base ATT from your Favored ATT (Favoured ATT - Base ATT), or the initial +3,+2 and +1 you got at character creation. As your FAV ATT increases, so does your strength in the associated path.

2. You then distribute your bonus across the path's two associated skill groups in any combination you wish.

HOWEVER, you may only start with knowing one path! I'm trying to tie this into a Wisdom Virtue, much like Wood Elf Magic or the Woodman's Hound virtue. I will be posting updates throughout the weekend, hopefully...

Hope you enjoyed this post

*edited for clarity on descriptions of the Vala

sounds cool keep posting your developments it would be nice to see where this goes.

Ok, a little more. (I apologize if this post seems a little disjointed, I am looking at my notes while trying to make this as understandable as possible)

I have always liked the fact that Magic was subtle and that the Istari were sent to inspire and motivate the free peoples of Middle Earth, not pointing their staffs and laying waste to entire regiments of orcs.

Making magic manifest in middle earth (Say that five times fast ) is not simply waving your hand and a rabbit popping out of you pointy hat. You are intentionally enforcing your will upon the world. This is exhausting. Hence, magic uses endurance as a limiter for spell casters.

So along those lines, i came up with these guidelines.

Casting a Spell
A spell caster may cast a spell at any time to help any character or NPC (or the caster for that matter) to assist them in some way. This takes the form of added success dice much like what is seen during the initial Journey phase as well as using the Battle skill prior to combat.
At anytime (Outside of combat), a caster may roll a number of dice = the rating of the skill rating in his path. i.e. Caster with a 2 in the movement skill group may roll a Feat Die+2 success dice. However, a caster has the option to not roll all of the dice in his pool. Going back to the caster with a Movement of 2, he could choose to simply roll a Feat die, or the Feat Die + 1 success die, etc. This comes into play with endurance loss (see below)
Finally, A caster may spend 1 point of Hope to add his Base ATT to his casting roll.

Back to skill groups and how they are affected by magic.

The TN of the spell is equal to the TN of the task being attempted. Any success will give 1 success die.

Success = 1 success die
Great Success = 2 success dice
Extraordinary = 3 success dice

These dice may be split any way the caster sees fit. The actual spell effects are up to the player and the Loremaster.

Example: a party is trying to evade an Orc hunting party that has picked up their trail. The caster could cast a movement stealth spell that adds success dice to party members die rolls. However, in the game, the stealth is represented by a thin mist that clings to the ground to obscure their tracks.

If the spell fails, for any reason, the caster gains 1 point of fatigue regardless of the final amount of endurance loss.

I'm debating on whether to allow Hope to offset this, but since Hope is already used for two different aspects of spell casting, I'm erring on the side of NO.

Unknown Common Skills
If a caster is attempting to cast a spell to which he doesn't know the associated common skill. He may only use his Feat die. He also loses 3 endurance points. However, just like normal spell casting, the caster may still use Hope to offset the cost if he so chooses, and He may also spend a point of Hope to add his BASE ATT to the roll as well.

Endurance Cost
The caster loses endurance equal to 1 point of endurance per dice rolled, whether the spell was successful or not. Success Dice may also be used to reduce the endurance loss of a spell. If the caster only needed a success and achieved an extraordinary success, he could spend the two extra success dice to lower the end cost of the spell by 2. Finally, a caster may choose to spend 1 point of Hope. This will negate the endurance loss of the spell.

I hope this makes sense. My basic magic system, Simple and subtle.

I'm still working on a "Improvised Spell System" that will primarily be used for a combat version I'm calling "Defensive Magic". So those of you who want your flaming pine cones, burning sparks, and lightning... don't worry, it's on its way!

DO NOT TAKE ME FOR SOME CONJURER OF CHEAP TRICKS!
I've decided that each path a spell caster masters earns him a title. This will come into play for the Wisdom Virtue I'm writing to support this system called "The Paths of the Wise".

1st path - Conjurer
2nd Path - Magician
3rd Path - Wizard

Sounds good so far.

I am not a fan of typical rpg magic users in LOTR games BUT you have done the work justice. I await your updates.

HN

Thank you for the kind words!

Small update.
I was thinking about TOR and Spellcasting at work when this quote popped into my mind.

This is what I came up with to address this aspect of Tolkien's magic.


Whenever a spell caster rolls the Sauron rune, regardless if the spell was successfully cast or not, ANY being that has the ability to use magic (evil or good) will become aware of the caster's general within 10 miles x Path rating (or one map hex x Path rating) of the spell cast. If the caster is miserable, this range doubles to 20 miles x Path Rating (2 map hexes x Path rating) of the spell cast.

Example: Belengol the magician (a Barding) is attempting to light a fire in a terrible early spring thunderstorm. His comrades are freezing and he must do what he can to help. He has the vocation skill group at 3, his Path rating is a 4 and his Body ATT is a 5. The LM sets the difficulty to light the fire at 20 (Daunting).
Belengol mutters strange words under his breath as he handles the wood and cast his spell. He rolls the EYE + a 4 and two 6’s! A 16, four shy of the TN! This could be disastrous, but Belengol spends a point of Hope to add his Body score of 5 to his roll making his total 21, a success!

He then adds his three success dice (He rolled an extraordinary success) to his Body (Craft) roll to light the fire successfully. His comrades are most appreciative that they have a magician in their fellowship, but Belengol feels spent and apprehensive.

He lost four endurance from the four dice he rolled to cast the spell, a point of Hope, and he might have exposed his comrades to more danger. His Eye of Sauron may have alerted any evil being within 40 miles (Path Rating of 4 x 10 miles), of his general .

I am still deciding if there will be a way to reduce this, say with success dice, or maybe double endurance loss, or even spending more Hope, but I haven't decided yet. Spellcasting is a very demanding profession to say the least!

A little more, this is what I've come up with for the initial description of the Virtue. I know some of you reading this may feel this description goes a little too far, but I wanted this CHOICE to be profound, and not something that the Player can change their mind about.

New Cultural Virtue

THE PATHS OF THE WISE
Requirements: Race of Men only, Wisdom Requirement 3

Of all the callings that Men may undertake, none is more arduous or mysterious than setting upon the Paths of the Wise. Gaining tutelage under the three remaining Istari, the adventurer learns the mysteries and magic that permeate the ancient world of Middle Earth. Once set upon the path, there is no turning back. The adventurer forsakes his past life, and all he knew, to give himself over to becoming an instrument of the West. This sacrifice is more profound than most will ever know, for not only has the adventurer given up his past life, he must also willingly forsake Eru’s Gift, or more commonly known as the “Gift of Man”. Though they will still wither and eventually die, they will not pass on, but travel to the Halls of Mandos, in Valinor, to await the ending of the world.

Upon gaining this virtue, the Player-Hero raises their permanent Hope Score by 2 to represent the character’s greater calling to defend the Free People’s of Middle Earth. This also completely refreshes the character’s Hope score. The PH also receives his initial training and gains the ability to cast spells from one of the Paths of their choosing (Air, Fire or Water).

I'm still working on the description of the three Tiers of Spell casting; so this is still incomplete.

Some of you may ask Why not Elves? or Dwarves? or Hobbits?
Elves and dwarves are hopefully self explanatory, they have their own special magic that only they may command.
As for Hobbits? I think Prof. Tolkien said it best:

So that left the Race of Men. And since there were three available cultures, it seemed appropriate. Plus, given the lore, why did the Istari come back looking like Men and not Elves, or Dwarves? Interesting question but one which I will not explore here.

This is cool stuff, I know magic in this game is always going to be a hard thing to talk about or deal with, but it's all about perspective, for the Hobbits a lot of what the Elves do seems like magic but it could be nothing but, and there could be some magic left in the world, we don't have to have everyone running around with a fireball but nothing wrong with some lighted up staffs, maybe some magic missles, read magic, you know the little stuff.

Thanks for the compliment

"Reading Magic" is easily done using the Lore skill since there is no secret language of magic. You simply have to be able to read the words, but that doesn't mean you can do anything with them. Take for example Gandalf at the entrance to Moria. He stated he once knew all the spells of opening from elves, men AND orcs. Not that it did him any good. He could read the inscription of the door, he just couldn't do anything with it.

There won't be any "magic missiles". However, if you want to throw a burning pine cone at a wolf, that's something else. and its still something I'm trying to work out...

I'm still not sure that this kind of magic fits the setting, but great work anyway.
And thanks for posting it!

I always wondered how they were going to do the mmo without magic but things there seem to be working so i'm sure it could work here too....

First off, Thanks!!!

If you were completely true to the Tolkien setting, there would be absolutely zero magic users at all other than what Tolkien has stated. You have the Five Wizards, The magic of the elves (which is actually quite powerful in its own way) and the magic of the dwarves. And that's about it. Of course, the Enemy has its sorcery, but I hope no one would be running an evil campaign. Its doomed to failure!

I decided to try my hand at creating a system that fit Tolkien's setting in tone, if not in scope. The whole point of this exercise is that every RPG that has ever been set in ME has had some form of magic that player's could use. MERP was WAY over the top, and the CODA LOTRRPG fit the feel of the magic of ME, if not in scale. I've been playing or running ME games since MERP 1st edition, so I'm kinda spoiled. That being said, I am in no way trying to say, TOR is better with this!!! It is not, TOR is an OUTSTANDING game that stands on its own. I simply saw a desire from some posters on the boards, and I am trying to satisfy that in my own way.

I understand where you're coming from, but I wanted Magic to be much more subtle than what is represented in the MMO, now that being said, Gandalf exhibited some extremely flashy magic, but only rarely, and only when the need was great. That is what I will be trying to tackle with this.

Thanks for the interest! and please comment, whether complimenting or criticizing, its all constructive!

Well there are other examples of magic.

Recall that outside Moria Gandalf mentions knowing all the spells of opening in the tongues of Elf, Man, and Orc.

The statement about Beorn is in Letter No. 144 were it says he was a bit of a magician.

Recall that men forged the Barrow blades wrapped with spells for the Witch-King's demise.

HN

Well Done Kalatharion, your magic system seems pretty good so far from what I can make out! If you have read our discussion on magic on the 'New Members' thread, you will see that there is a consensus of opinion that there does need to be some sort of magic system.

From my own viewpoint as a Loremaster who likes to know how the world works, I would like you to go into a bit more detail as to 'where' this magic comes from. As already mentioned, Gandalf knows a lot of spells in Elvish, Orcish & Mannish tongues to do the same thing: open a door! But implied in Tolkien is that magic is a sort of inherent power, I think - thus magicians are rare.

My own views on Tolkien's magic themes:

1. magic is an inherent power, although items that contain magic are usable by all.

2. magic is very fatiguing, which is one reason why there is little abuse of power.

3. Sorcery or evil magic is the easiest to learn and least costly in terms of fatigue (this is implied by Tolkien as to the 'seductiveness' of evil magic)

4. The use of magic can be detected by others with the same ability - another reason for no large abuses of power, especially whilst Sauron is around!

Look forward to more from you!
Robin S.

HN, You are correct sir! After reading my last post about magic, I think I may have been a little over the top the in saying "Absolutely Zero". What I meant to say was that magic users are extremely rare in the world.
Beorn is a special case, I would almost put him in the same category as Tom Bombadil. He's not on the same level power wise, but he's still one of the weird, yet wonderful oddities of Middle Earth. (Don't tell him I said that! )

In regards to the Blades the Hobbits recover in the Wight's tomb, if I remember correctly, they were Numenorean Blades. We know that the skills and magic of Men in the days of Numenor were great, but that power has all but faded from the world.

Perhaps it is that any character that decides to follow the Paths of the Wise, is in some way related, if even only remotely, to some great Numenorean family that escaped the cataclysm. Just some random thoughts put to paper

RS - Thanks for the compliment. Right now, I'm targeting the mechanics of the system. Once I have that down, then I will attack the fluff.
However, I will offer this little tidbit. If you recall my first post, I went into a little detail into how the Istari and their sponsoring Vala were connected to the three Paths of Magic. I now offer this quote from Prof. Tolkien.

Kaltharion the Barrow Blades were made in the mid Third Age well after of the fall Numenor. However, you are correct that by the end of the Third age much had faded. The splitting of Arnor and the great plague did much to weaken the Kingdoms in Exile.

As for the lineage of Numenor for the Paths of the Wise, the blood of the Elves was in the Noble House via Elros. So, maybe makers of the blades still had strong bloodlines which seems to fit what you proposed. BTW I am paraphrasing something I believe I read on Entmoot.

Robin Smallburrow " Tolkien usually called it sorcery, and he was using the word some generically. Sometimes it was intended as an insult, as when Eomer called Galadriel a sorcerous. Sometimes it just described the effects achieved by the Elves (and their enemies), as when Finrod engaged in a contest of sorcery with Sauron."

Also culled from Entmoot from Michael Martinez.

HN

Whoops!
LOL, you are correct sir! After seeing your post, I looked back through the Return of the King because I remember that one of the daggers had been given special attention. I think it was the mention of Westernesse that threw me off.

Well, its been a while since I did anything with this project, since it took a backseat to my GM Screen. But now that the screen is done, I thought I'd revisit this. I don't know if I'm ever really going to finish this, but I find it serves as a great exercise in my relearning of Tolkien Lore.

I've come up with a couple more items I'd thought I'd share.
The first is a new undertaking for the Wizened (what I call spell casters now)

TAKE COUNSEL
Wizened Hero Only
A wizened hero may spend his fellowship phase in counsel with his master and learn of events that may be occurring across Middle-Earth that are not common knowledge. The hero may receive additional training from his master as well. This Undertaking may only be invoked in the following Sanctuaries: Rhosgobel, Rivendell, Minas Tirith, Isengard, Dol Amroth and The Grey Havens.
When a Wizened Hero wishes to embark upon this undertaking, they must first roll their Lore vs. TN listed in the table below for the Sanctuary they are in. If the roll is successful, the Hero’s wizened master is present and they may take counsel with them. If they fail their roll, their master is not present and they must choose another undertaking for the Fellowship phase.
Radagast - Rhosgobel (no roll, he is always there)
Gandalf - Rivendell (TN14), The Grey Havens (TN16), Minas Tirith (TN18)
Saruman - Isengard (TN10), Minas Tirith (TN 16), Dol Amroth (TN18)
If the Hero just wishes to speak with their master and gain further insight, the Fellowship Phase may be as short as needed to fit into the current adventure cycle. In order to further the wizened hero’s training, the Fellowship phase must be equal to or greater than a month’s time. If the Hero is gaining a new pillar of magic, the Fellowship phase must take an entire season (Winter, Spring, etc.)
Gain Insight - No Minimum Duration
Further Training - ≥ 1 Month
Gain a New Pillar - Entire Season

So that's it for my first idea. The condition to find a teacher before you can actually improve your wizened hero may rankle a few nerves, but I felt it was somewhat appropriate. Radagast and Saruman are fairly sedentary. We know that from the lore. It was mentioned that Saruman did visit Edoras from time to time, so that made sense, but Radagast seems like a stone. He just doesn't go or do anything that we know of. Gandalf, on the other hand, is like like trying to pin down a shadow. He is everywhere, all the time. Hence, his higher TN's.
edit: Changed Radagast to automatic, removed Bree and Edoras, and added s based on Telcontar's great suggestions below

My second idea is completely out of left field, it just sort of hit me this morning. I call them Exceptional Callings. I was looking through the adventurer's book and reading up on callings when it struck me. There were five callings, There were Five Wizards, and each wizard had his Sponsoring Vala.
So... I created these "Advanced" Callings for the Wizened. I've done nothing with them, but they fit the Lore and I think they're kinda neat myself.

The Calling of the Wild
Sponsoring Valar: Yavanna
Requirement: Warden

The Calling of the World
Sponsoring Valar: Manwe
Requirement: Wanderer

The Calling of the Forge
Sponsoring Valar: Aule
Requirement: Treasure-Hunter

The Calling of the Doomsman
Sponsoring Valar: Mandos
Requirement: Scholar

The Calling of the Hunt
Sponsoring Valar: Orome
Requirement: Slayer

Like I said earlier, these are just ramblings on paper. I may do something with them, I may not. But its a fun exercise to fit the Lore into the game.

Why Edoras when taking council? Who would be there to confer with? My two cents would be to add in Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth and the Grey Havens. Places where there are learned people and libraries.

Those are great suggestions! The only reason I included Edoras, was the fact that it is known that Saruman visited there on occasion. But including Dol Amroth for Saruman and the Grey Havens for Gandalf are great ideas. And it would make for some great roleplaying opportunities for s not really explored by the novels.

Post has been updated to reflect Telcontar's suggestions. Thanks!

If you wanted to get crazy you could add Umbar and Dorwinion for the two Blue Wizards who are lost. Perhaps going there the closer it is to the War of The Ring would involve Shadow points as Sauron tries to subvert all to his will.

You may want to consider opening it up to other people other than the known Wizards. Elrond for example could teach someone something through lore, which to a human would be magic, Cirdan as well for the Grey Havens. Also a figure like Marbeth the Seer of Fornost could exist in Minas Tirith or Dol Amroth. One of the Istari no, but someone who had lore and ability most definitely.

Kaltharion love your work. Here is a suggestion. You said that you are using the term wizened which means old and wrinkled. I think the root of the word comes from wither. Maybe a name change?

Kaltharion,

I'm just wondering how you're progressing with your project? I love what you're doing in attempting to tweak the ToR system (just a bit) while remaining faithful to Tolkien & his beautiful creation.

While I'm not a fan of powerful games & don't want to see D&D fireballs ruin ToR, I feel that you're on the right track in capturing the basics & low-level magic, & look forward to your final project.

A quick note concerning the actual numbers of wizards. Note that the good professor hinted upon the possibility of additional wizards beyond the greater five:

"Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dúnedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five."

Unfinished Tales of Númemor and Middle-earth, The Istari, 388–90, 401–402.

Thus, if any of you LMs are considering the possibilty of another member of the Heren Istarion (we've already discussed the Ithryn Luin or Blue Wizards - Alatar & Pallando), we can always suppose that someone else slipped through the cracks, as it were .

Thanks for that post. The key words being the chiefs. That definitely opens the door.

Thank you for the words of encouragement and kind words guys. I've had the unfortunate luck of receiving a one-two punch of a busier than normal work schedule and a nasty bug on top of that. So I haven't been able to really do much with my magic system lately.

However, I have not, and will not abandon it. I have pages of notes scattered all over my office desk as well as on the walls. They will all soon be collated and posted for your reading pleasure and constructive criticism.

Hopefully this weekend.

And here's just a little something I slapped together a while back. I think once I finalize the magic system, i'll try to put together a nice little fan supplement like I did with my GM Screen. Until then, please enjoy the cover.

Nice!

Nice! If you need any help wargaming through stuff Kal shoot me and email I would be happy to help.

I think there were more than you think.

It was plain that many people regarded them now as the companions of a travelling magician of unknown powers and purpose.
--At the Sign of the Prancing Pony

This one instance alone implies that Magicians (not Istari) were around (albeit infrequently), much in the same manner that "professional burglars" were.
As to if you prefer "Conjurer" or some other label is your choice.
Much like the quote already given concerning spells of Elves, Men and Orcs.
Magic and those able to use it was known and still in relative use.

"Wizard" was reserved for the Istari. And yes, "chief" was used in Unfinished Tales, but that goes beyond information available in an "official" capacity.
Fine for fan flavor of course. License-wise that information is out-of-bounds. Apocryphal as it were.
At best, "Wizard's pupil" may be used to indicate teachings of the Istari to others. Certainly Radagast taught Beorn some form of shape-changing animal magic thus making him a "Wizard's pupil".

‘Yes; not a bad fellow as Wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again—he has taught me a little Wizardry,’ said Beorn warningly.

In the same manner there were other Sorcerers, Necromancers and other workers of iniquity. Sauron and the Ringwraiths were not the only options as the possible power lording it up in Dol Guldur.

The White Council greatly feared that the power in Dol Guldur might be a Ringwraith returned (or a new one?). That Sauron Returned was present existed only in their deepest and darkest nightmares. Then there is the Mouth of Sauron, another Sorcerer.

The addition "....he taught me a little wizardry.." was your addition, correct?

I believe in my one of my earlier posts I forgot to mention the books also mentions that the men of Rhuduar became fell into sorcery.

Oops!

Yes, it was--accidentally.
Multiple instances of looking up quotes regarding wizardry produced a goof there in transferring the quote to message.

Although, I admit that Beorn's ability for skin-changing and Radagast's affinity for birds and beasts may not have helped in the quoting process either.

Ok, to go in line with the magic system is the Virtue that makes this all possible. This is still a WIP, but I think it's fleshed out enough for public critique.

New Cultural Virtue

The Paths of the Wise
Requirements: Wisdom 3, Race of Men only

Of all the callings that Men may undertake, none is more arduous or mysterious than setting upon the Paths of the Wise. Gaining tutelage under the three remaining Istari, the hero learns the mysteries and magic that permeate the ancient world of Middle Earth. Once set upon the path, there is no turning back. The hero forsakes his past life, and all he knew, to give himself over to becoming an instrument of the West. This sacrifice is more profound than most will ever know, for not only has the hero given up his past life, he must also willingly forsake Eru’s Gift, or more commonly known as the “Gift of Man”. Though they will still eventually die, they will not pass on, but travel to the Halls of Mandos, in Valinor, to await the ending of the world.

The Master will appear when the Student is ready

When a hero wishes to become an apprentice of the Wise, the hero must first meet the requirements as listed above. When those are met, the aspiring apprentice must perform the Take Counsel undertaking during a Fellowship Phase at any where they are currently located (this is the one exception to the chart listed under Take Counsel). The hero must succeed at a Wisdom Test vs. TN 16. If they fail, the Powers of the world have deemed that they are not yet ready for the task ahead and they may participate in another undertaking.
If they succeed, they must choose a Pillar of Magic to begin their training. An Istari of the chosen Pillar (Radagast - Water, Gandalf - Air, or Saruman - Fire) arrives at their and guides them to a place of power (Rhosgobel, Rivendell, or Isengard) for their instruction for the rest of a season (Winter, Spring, etc.) At the end of the Fellowship phase, the hero will be inducted into the White Council, and gains their first path, The Path of the Conjurer.

Upon gaining the Virtue: The Paths of the Wise, the Hero gains the following benefits and drawbacks.

Benefits
- Raise your Permanent Hope score by 2. This will also refresh your Hope score to its full amount.
(representing the hero's greater calling to defend the Free People's of Middle-Earth)
- Gain your first Path of the Wise: The Path of the Conjurer.
- Gain admittance to the White Council. Your standing rating with any member of the Council is considered 1.
- While carrying a staff, your parry rating is considered equal to your wisdom score. (I'm still mulling this one over. +6 parry at Wisdom 6 is A LOT. Granted, by that time, the hero is probably close to becoming a full wizard, but sheesh...)

Drawbacks
- Your standing among Men, Dwarves and Hobbits drops to Zero (0)
- Your Standing with Elves now equals your standing with the White Council.
- You may no longer use Treasure to raise your Standing
- You may no longer wear armor (Why? Armor mars your robes, a mark of your office, or any other excuse you can think of. I couldn't really come up with a restriction that didn't sound too D&Dish, but it does fit the setting. Wizards don't wear armor)

The First Path
The Path of the Conjurer
The hero is now set upon the first Path of the Wise: The Path of the Conjurer. He or She has learned the secrets of directing their will to affect the world and environment around them. It is a very arduous path to begin on, but the travails of the Path provide their benefit as the Hero gains greater experience and wisdom.

Benefits
- Choose one Pillar of Magic: Water, Fire, or Air. You begin with a rank of 3 in that Pillar.
- You gain a number of points equal to your Pillar rank that you may distribute as you wish among that Pillar’s associated skill groups.
- You have an innate Protection of 1d. (I added this late to try to give these type of characters some survivability)
- Each Pillar of Magic has an associated Master Wizard. This Master is the Wizard that the Hero must seek out in order to receive further training in their art. See the Take Counsel undertaking

I've tried to emulate the built-in special abilities that you find in virtues like Hound of Mirkwood or Herbal Remedies, Wood-Elf magic, etc.

As I have mentioned earlier, this is still a Work in Progress, Too Much? Too complicated? I'm open to all suggestions

I'm still working on the Path of the Magician and the Path of the Wizard and their exact specifics, but it should be up shortly.

I'm also thinking of adding in an interesting choice that will allow players to avoid receiving training from a certain Istari (Hint, Hint) if they so choose at the cost of more powerful training... That's still on the drawing board though.
On second thought, this option will only become available as the War of the Ring approaches and Saruman falls to darkness

I also need to add that I am adjusting the magic rules as well. The rules will maintain the same feel, they just need to be brought into line with the virtue.

Made some progress last night, and since I have the day off today for Veteran's Day here in the USA, I thought I'd add some updates before I head out to a BBQ later today! yum!

I've updated the graphic that is presented on the first page of this thread. It brings in some aspects that have evolved in my magic system since I first created it.


Secondly, here are the Paths of the Magician, and the Wizard.


The Path of the Magician
Requirements: Mastery of the Conjurer Path, Wisdom rank 4

You have mastered your first path, and have set upon your second path. Using the benefits you have learned, your wisdom guides your continual growth along the Paths of the Wise. This path is longer and more difficult, but with perseverance, you will succeed.
A hero gains the Path of the Magician by meeting the above requirements and successfully participating in a Take Counsel undertaking during a season long Fellowship Phase. At the end of the Fellowship Phase, the hero spends 5 xp and gains the following benefits.
Benefits
Choose a second Pillar of Magic. You gain a rank of 2 in that Pillar.
You gain a number of points equal to your Pillar rank that you may distribute as you wish among that Pillar’s associated skill groups.
You gain an innate Protection of 2d.


The Path of the Wizard
Requirements: Mastery of the Magician Path, Wisdom rank 5

You have embarked upon the final and most difficult path of magic, The Path of the Wizard. You have gained the respect of your elders as well as the members of the White Council. You are counted among the Wise. But with this newfound power, comes a greater responsibility to counter the Enemy and all his minions.
A hero gains the Path of the Wizard by meeting the above requirements and successfully participating in a Take Counsel undertaking during a season long Fellowship Phase. At the end of the Fellowship Phase, the hero spends 10 xp and gains the following benefits.
Benefits
Choose the final Pillar of Magic you do not possess. You gain a rank of 1 in that Pillar.
You gain one point, equal to your Pillar rank, that you may distribute to one of your Pillar’s associated skill groups.
You gain an innate Protection of 3d.

XP progression required for becoming a spell-caster.
XP Cost and Progression of the Paths
The Pillar Rating is equal to the sum of both of that Pillar’s associated skill groups. The Pillar Rating is increased by improving your skill groups.
During the Take Counsel undertaking, The hero may spend as many XP as they wish to raise one (or both) skill groups. They may even raise a group multiple times as long as they pay for each advance separately.
Skill Groups are raised using XP.

Once your Pillar rating = 5, you gain the following benefits:
- You have gained enough mastery of the Pillar that you no longer need instruction. Mark the Mastery box in the appropriate Pillar.
- All Spells cast using that Pillar’s associated skill groups require 1 less endurance to cast. All spells must still meet the 1 endurance minimum cost.
- You gain 1 rank in standing with the White Council.
- Gain the Title of the Path you have Mastered (see Titles and Standing chart)

Titles and Standing
Path---------Title----------White Council Standing
1st path-----Apprentice-------1
Mastery-----Conjurer---------2
2nd Path----Conjurer---------2
Mastery-----Magician---------3
3rd Path-----Magician---------3
Mastery-----Wizard-----------4

Now that the virtue is all out in the open. Thoughts? comments?

And here's a reward that should be on the list of every wandering conjurer

Staff of the Wise
This is the implement most associated with conjurers, magicians and wizards. It is a mark of their station as well as focus of their will. While wielding a staff of the wise, this powerful tool allows any spell casting character to use greater reserves of endurance than would normally be available to them.
When casting a spell, if a spell caster achieves a great or extraordinary success, they gain the following benefits
Great success - Reduce the endurance cost of a spell by 1.
Extraordinary success - Reduce the endurance cost of a spell by 3, or the Pillar rating of the spell that is being cast, whichever is higher.

Saruman = Fire and Gandalf = Air?

Doesn't Gandalf wield the ring of Fire? Plus Saruman was if anything, more obsessed with Lore than his brethren.

Would it be possible for all of this to be collected into a pdf?

Jefferwin

The reason that I chose Saruman to represent Fire and Gandalf to represent Air was to tie them into their sponsoring Valar. Saruman was sponsored by Aulë (the Valar of the Earth and the Forge, while Gandalf was sponsored by Manwë, The Valar of Air and the Lord of the Valar. I did originally have them switched as you suggest, but I decided that what the Istari did after they arrived in Middle-Earth doesn't change what their origins were. But, like this whole project, those ideas can be changed if enough people feel its a more appropriate fit.

Bobchuck,

That's the plan! I want to try to get as many suggestions as possible to make changes and tweaks before compiling everything into a pdf.

wow that's all I can say and I can't wait for this to be finished, I know I'll let my players use this, It has always bugged me that Lord of the Rings influenced so many different works but in itself had very little magic, don't get me wrong I don't need to have fireballs flying around but the Hobbit always made me feel that there was more magic to Middle Earth, but after reading LOtR you find out that there really isn't. I like what you've made so far, and I'm still learning the game, we don't have any gaming groups for TOR, here in Albuquerque, but I hope that someone will want to play with me.