Kaltharion,

I pretty much echo Sillyxander's comments. I'm still learning the rules & debating on how far to tweek magic in the system they've adopted - which seems to capture the feel of Middle-earth beautifully.

That said, however, I'm looking forward to your final Paths of the Wise (or whatever you call it) - this is good stuff .

Well, a little bit more. I've decided that I wanted to try to tackle what I'm calling discrete magic. Magic that is specifically described in the Hobbit. In this case, the flaming pine cones that Gandalf throws at the wargs and goblins after the company was chased up the pine trees.


You will notice that there is no endurance cost listed yet, I'm still trying to figure that variable out.

Now, I know some of you have expressed concerns about throwing around "Fireballs", I hope that this spell does not meet that criteria.
I'm planning on putting together about 2-3 discrete spells per pillar of magic at the moment, but I'm still deciding on how to best implement them.

edit: the great success should be worded a little better
"Your target catches fire! The target takes 2 damage every turn UP to the Fire Rating of the caster or until it is extinguished (Athletics vs. TN 14)"

Example: Belengol throws an acorn at an advancing warg. He successfully hits (with a great success) the warg on the nose and the warg catches fire. Belengol's Fire rating is 3, so the warg will continue to burn for 3 more turns if it can't put the fire out. The warg howls in pain and begins to roll around on the ground trying to put the fire out.

Kaltharion, is perfect....we need a pdf with all the rules...easy and logical the magic...congratulations...!!!!

Kaltharion,

I've been giving your 'avoiding the fireballs' aspect a lot of thought, & I suspect that you're on the right track concerning the damage/edge/TNs, etc., in combination with some type of penalties for use to avoid exploitation by players.

Your point about Endurance should probably do the trick & I for one will be curious with what you eventually develop.

Thanks!

With everything being said, I've decided to go ahead and collect everything I've put together into a pdf and post it to the boards so people can really start to give it a hard look. I should have everything collected and formatted by the end of the weekend.

I will not include any of my "experimental" ideas I'm still cooking up, such as Caster specific virtues and rewards (Except the Staff of the Wise) and Discrete magic (combative magic). Those will remain a purview of the boards until I get a consensus for a general direction I should take.

edit: Oh! one last thing, i've been really thinking about the Istari/Magic "Realm" correlation and have decided that Gandalf will indeed be linked to Fire, and Saruman to Air. It doesn't fit according to the Lore, but it FEELS right. So I finally decided to go with that decision.

I agree with your hesitation to add those & I also have been reading everyone's posts & wondering about the balance. I'm too new to these rules to see what works in terms of other RPGs while still keeping the flavor of Middle-earth, which is my primary concern. I like what they do with Cultural Virtues in this regard, though I'm still anticipating a player someday asking, "Can I play a wizard?"

I've decided to call "spell-casters" in TOR, Dwimmer-Crafters. It gives them a more Middle-Earth feel to their name than the generic term. I believe that Tolkien even used the term "Dwimmer" in one of his letters.

Anyway, As promised, here's the first part of my magic system. The Character Sheet!

Edit: Having some issues with the file size... I'll repost as soon as I can get it to a decent size

IIRC When Eomer is telling the three hunters about Saruman, he describes him as cunning and "dwimmer-crafty

Ah, thank you! I thought I had seen that phrase before.
It's just as well as I have decided to rename my project "The Dwimmer Road". More mysterious sounding don't you think?

As promised, here is a preview copy of The Dwimmer Road. I have not included the magic rules yet, but you can use what I've posted on the first page of this thread for the time being.

The Dwimmer Road: Preview Copy

Hope you enjoy! And please, feedback is always appreciated!!!

Good job so far, Kaltharion!

Are you going to include rules for dwimmer-crafty foes as well? It seems like there might be more of them than allies of the White Council.

Perfect....!!!!, this game only need magic to be 100% OK...!!!

Thanks

I don't think so. I feel that the Dreadful Spells special ability is more than enough for evil dwimmer-crafters (Sorcerers). My reason is that a Loremaster could design any number of sorcerous spells that would not be available to PCs. Also, it keeps PCs on their toes as they would have no idea what the evil sorcerer could do to them. Granted, Sorcerers and other evil beings that can use dreadful spells should have a higher Hate rating.

Example: A loremaster could design a Dreadful Spell that would allow a sorcerer to drain Hate from his minions in order to power his spells. That would definitely throw a fellowship for a loop especially if they think they have the Sorcerer on the ropes...

Remember that the majority of my magic system for Dwimmer-crafters is more of a support magic system than it is for direct confrontation. It adds success dice to other actions giving the Dwimmer-Crafter the ability to give his companions and himself a slighter better edge.

Now all of that being said, you could simply uses the magic system provided, and just say they get their magic in another way. NPCs don't have as many rules as PCs for Loremaster flexibility.

Ok,

I was able to fix the character sheets. There are two styles, a full graphic sheet similar to the original and a printer friendly version

Full Character Sheet
Dwimmer-Crafter Character Sheet (Hi-Res)

Printer Friendly Sheet
Dwimmer-Crafter PC Sheet (Lo-Res)

Edit: Here's an experimental sheet I'm working with. It replaces the Damage and Hope bubbles with tracks so you can visually see where your Endurance/Hope stands.
The tracks are set up so that you can mark where your current fatigue and shadow are at. Everything is visual and helps to cut down on record keeping.
This sheet is not ready for prime time yet as there is still a lot of white space. What do you think? Useful?
PC Sheet with Damage/Hope tracks (draft)

K,
I dig the new fatigue shadow idea.

And I like the new sheet with tracks, though I'm not sure about the zig-zag.

Maybe you could have tracks also for Shadow and Fatigue so that the player can visualise the gap between each pair? That's the important thing, after all. Not quite sure how...

I'm still digging through the rules Kaltharion & working out how far to develop magic for heroes, but I for one am ssoooo glad that you've put all this work into this topic.

It's probably inevitable that each of us as LMs will encounter at least one or more player (at some point) who wants to play some type of 'wizard.' How to balance this with the flavor of Middle-earth is the key & tricky, though I like what you've done on this.

I'm still too new to TOR to feel comfortable about introducing house rules, however, I'm leaning toward a merger of your rules & the original 'Cultural Virtues,' such as the Dwarven Broken Spells in the book.

Good stuff .

Hello Kalatharion, sorry it has taken me a month to read your Dwimmer preview copy and get back to you (so many things to do!), but here are my (constructive I hope) comments:

A. 'Requirements - Wisdom Rank 3'. So no starting characters can be a Dwimmer-Crafter? Is this deliberate, if so why?

B. A hero must give up the 'Gift of Man' to pursue the Dwimmer Road. This is a serious issue, and I am wondering where you got this idea from, as I cannot recall any basis for this in Tolkien, although I could be wrong... my memory of Tolkien's writings on magic, refer to his letter about 'magia' and 'goetia'...

C. So initially a hero must pass a Wisdom Test of TN16 to possibly become a Dwimmer-Crafter. Does this mean that during character generation all characters get to make this roll? And what do you say to a player who wants to start as this (see point A above)?

D. must choose a Pillar of Magic to begin training, and a Master Wizard of the chosen Pillar arrives for their training at a Place of Power. A number of concerns here: firstly, what about magical effects that cannot be easily pigeonholed into one of the three pillars (eg earth or spirit)? What if your master wizard is busy or unavailable? ( I see a problem with using Radagast, Saruman and Gandalf as the Master Wizards, basically). Are you developing rules on determining Places of Power? Will they be similar to the idea of Blighted Places??

E. 'wandering conjurer' - this is how the common folk generally perceive you, so there should be negative social effects in game, not just Standing drops to zero! (depending on where and when, of course)

F. 'no longer wear armor' - why not??

G. 'associated spell groups for each Pillar' - again, I hope you are using Tolkien's letter about 'magia' and 'goetia' as a reference point when designing these, see also my point about magical effects that are hard to classify. My advice is to also check out Decipher's magic system (which was the best thing about that game as it did feel 'Tolkieneque'). Will happily suggest some examples if you wish...

H. 'master wizard the hero must seek out' - see point D. above ("I'm sorry, but Lord Saruman is unavailable at the moment - come back in six months!)

I. Crafty Virtue: 'reduce the TN of all spells that you cast by 1' - I assume that you will provide the rules mechanics for casting spells soon. I loved Decipher's concept that the TN was vs Weariness (rather than skill), although myself and others modified the concept (called Vigour) where the TN was vs combined Weariness & Willpower (as a strong willed person can overcome tiredness)

J. Reduce the Endurance cost of the spell by 1 endurance. See point I above - it sounds like your idea is to have a TN skill roll and that spells also have an endurance cost??

K. 'Pillar Rating' - so this is a third aspect of a spell - its difficulty perhaps??

L. 'Spell Groups are raised by XP, not advancement points' - why?

Overall I think very good introduction Kalatharion - my only other advice is to always keep in mind the 'Open Door' example (mentioned by Gandalf in Fellowship of the Ring). It is a good example I use with my players because:

- it explains that a spell is really just a formula for trying to obtain an effect, so spells are culturally specific
- that words can have power, such power can even be put into objects
- the 'power' is usually an inherent trait of the individual, either birthright, race etc.
- but I remind my players that most wizards etc. open doors like every other person (physically), because it is easier to open a door physically than with magic!

Robin S.

Hi Kalatharion

I'm still making my way toward the 'final cut' of the tread, but I must say your work is impressive.

I must admit I was doubtful about a magic system for TOR but I think you got the 'feel' right. I have to digest the whole thing a bit more before giving more constructive criticism, but if you allow this comment...

I like the air/water/fire approach. In classical alchemy, these are the mutable elements; a suiting choice for magic that changes and affect your environment (earth being the realm of the immutable, of inorganic matter and chemistry; living things - animal and plants - were governed by the element of water. Yavanna could thus be seen as a 'water' vala more than a earthly one, again a suiting choice IMO).

Doubling this up with the three rings not only cement the approach but gives it a definite Middle-Earth flavour. Tree magics, three wizards, three rings, three attribute. So far it all fits. The foundations are solid.

on to more reading...

Ok, some further reading down the road, a few more personal impressions; take what you wish and leave the rest.

First, I'd like to say that I agree with the wisdom 3 entry. The casting option not being available from character creation is fine by me.

Wisdom test for initial admittance: I would be tempted to remove that part entirely. If the player wants to be a wizard and the Loremaster agrees, there should be no (mechanical) reasons to deny it. It is said that a master will come, but it doesn't have to come right now and there. There's already plenty of room for the Loremaster to adjudicate.

Also, tests usually cannot be retried. This would mean that the wannabe wizard will need to wait until its next Wisdom rank and since a character can only accumulate 6 (and your system requires 3, the first of which cannot be selected before rank 3), the player risks never to become a fully trained wizard (or not at all if he/she's unlucky). While this is ok in itself, it shouldn't rely on a dice throw but on the decisions of the player and game master IMO.

Pillars, Ranks and Skill Groups: The system already provides a 'vertical' grouping of skills. I wonder if distributing spells 'horizontally' is really necessary. I feel that it muddies-up your magic rules, which I think should remain as simple as the core system.

Casting Spells: Again, rolling for spells to allow (better) rolling for skill appears a bit redundant. Either automatically grant X number of success dice upon casting a spell or make the successful casting an automatic success on the related skill. Perhaps a casting test in moment of stress only (like in battle)?

No Armour Clause: Not sure if that is necessary at all. Paths give inherent protection, which you could specify that it doesn't stack with armour. In addition, spells cause endurance loss / fatigue gain. More reasons to travel light and forgo armour altogether.

Glorfindel

Staff of the Wise: I have a feeling that in the LotR, a wizard's staff is more than a mere prop or an 'edge' to cast spell, but rather an essential tool and a badge of its office.

Gandalf put up quite a fuss to keep his staff in the Hall of Theoden, and the breaking of Saruman's staff meant a great deal. I'd be inclined to say that the staff is intimately linked to spell-casting. I'm not quite certain whether Saruman's staff was broken when his spell-casting powers were removed or if his spell-casting powers were removed when his staff was broken, but the two seem directly linked.

I'm not quite certain as to how best represent that within the existing ruleframe. Staff as a reward seems the way to go...

I was thinking that the 'conjuror' virtue could be left out of the White Council's business and be a virtue on its own (which can then be used as a prerequisite for higher paths. 'Member of the White Council' could then be a reward, upon which the would-be wizard receives its staff (both a source of power and and a badge of office) and the chance of being trained further in crafting spells (which can be purchased as virtues as the magician and wizard paths). The voice of Saruman could have been his conjuror's power so to speak, which he kept after his dismissal (even though it lost some of its 'potency'). This would also explained that while rare and often misidentified, 'conjurors of cheap tricks' are are frequent enough to warrant fear and suspicions from the population without the sponsorship of the White Council.

In this light, the conjuror virtue could perhaps be allowed from character creation and give limited powers akin to the broken spell virtues of elves and dwarves. 'Conjuror' could also be the foundations of both Valar magic and Sauron's sorcery, and it could be part of the task of the White Council to seek these spellcasters before they get corrupted by the shadow. This in turn could lead to a mechanic allowing shadow points to be gained on selfish or destructive use of magic (or that kind of spells being fueled by shadow points for greater effects)...

Just curious but how is the final copy coming.... Very interested in the final outcome of your concept.

Hi everyone!

I apologize for dropping off the edge of the wild

I've been out for about a month and a half with the Holidays and the opportunity to hike a portion of the Appalachian trail here in the USA. Believe me, I now thoroughly believe in the Fatigue rules of the game

Back to the magic system, I will be taking a hard look at all of the comments that have been made during my absence and will try to address them all in the next week or so. I'm hoping that I should have a finalized product within the next month. No promises... but it's good to have deadlines.

Thank you all for your continued interest in my magic system and look for updates soon!

Kal

[treadjack]
In winter too?!?

I've done a portion of the Appalachian between the Bigelows and the Kathadin a few times, and there are few stretches I wouldn't have dared in wintertime...

What portion did you hike?
[/threadjack]

LOL, yeah my friends and I got a lot of concerned looks from our families when we stated that we were going to the trail for a couple of days. Thankfully, the weather, while cold at night, was surprisingly mild for early December. It was a treat for me since I live in San Diego and the change of weather was welcome.
We were in Tennessee, hiking in the vicinity of Clingman's Dome. It was mostly just a camping/bushcraft outing anyway. We had no where to be, just enjoyed the scenery.
To bring this thread back to Middle Earth, we would always joke about setting a watch for Orcs before we would settle in for the night. We never did. Thankfully, none us rolled an Eye!

Robin and Glorfindel,

You make some great observations and have some really good questions. Let me try to answer a couple now.

This was a deliberate choice on my part as I wanted PCs to be firmly rooted in the game before embarking upon the dwimmer-road. It was my thought that by the time a PC had reached Wisdom 3, the Player would have enough time in the proverbial driver's seat to decide if a spell caster was really where he/she wanted their character to go. I've seen Players in other games regret their choice of playing a spell caster after some time in a game and I wanted to try to mitigate as much "Buyer's Remorse" as I could.

I am not a Tolkien scholar by any means and I have only read The Hobbit, LotR, Silmarillion, and the Unfinished tales (although more times than I care to count). I was not even aware that Tolkien had written a specific letter on Magic.

This idea was entirely my own. I first brought this concept up in one of the first posts in this thread and I knew it was going to ruffle some feathers. However, I wanted this choice to be profound, not only for the PC, but for the player as well. This is one of those, "Once you step down the dark path..." type decisions. It also helps to explain the Wisdom 3 requirement. "Do I really want to do this?"

I hope I've answered my reasons why no starting PC can start as a Dwimmer-Crafter. IRT to the Wisdom test, That happens during the Fellowship phase when the PC decides to become a conjurer, not during Character Creation. I'll look at the Preview Copy and see if it needs more clarification. However, I do see where this is probably unnecessary.

Maybe a simple requirement. Wisdom 3, Lore 3, Riddle 3?

That's it for now. Thank you again for your observations and comments!

Hi Kalatharion, thanks for explaining your reasons why Wisdom 3. I think I prefer simple requirements to start down the Dwimmer Road, I agree with Glorfindel about the dice roll part -if the player wants to do it, then let them by fulfilling simple requirements (certainly ranks in Wisdom & Lore, and I would make the third skill more open: Song/Craft/Courtesy or Riddle perhaps, with less ranks).

Look forward to more of your replies
Robin S.

Hi Kalatharion, any further news on how your system is coming along? I am particularly interested in your explanation of the Dwimmer PC character sheet - which a player of mine pointed out the other day!

Specifically, I noticed that you have added extra circles labelled 'Water, Fire & Air' to the Attributes, with smaller circles attached indicating 'Mastery', and also two skill groups under each Attribute with three diamonds: Movement & Survival under Body, Personality & Vocation under Heart and Custom & Perception under Wits. Also there is a little diamond attached to the skills Athletics, Explore, Inspire, Battle, Search & Riddle.

I am particularly interested in your explanation of these changes to the character sheet, so I can use them with players!

Robin S.

First thing to say: I do not like systems depicting magic in Endorenna - generally, I have to add now I quite like the way YOU put the system together, though!

I did a bit of research on magic in Tolkien's work in my time, though I would no way call myself educated on the topic. I got few conclusions and I would like to share those.

The main sources I used to form my opinions were:
- the letter about magic and gothia (a hard to crack nut for me)
- the origin of races in ME and their inherent gifts
- discussion between Sam and elves about "magical" cloaks
- Galadriel being able to express great deal of power by tearing down the fort of Dol Guldur
- other forms of elven magic, and artifacts
A subtle, but vital distinction Tolkien made is I believe the difference between gifts acquired in "right way" and in "wrong way". Endorenna was a highly moral universe (which is well reflected in TOR) based on objective morality grounded by the nature of its creator, Eru. Sometimes what is important is the way and intentions the gift was acquired. For elves magic is inherent, it is part of what they were created like - their racial blessing we could say.

Elves
Elves were created to love the Arda the way it was, to care about it, to enhance it by increasing its qualities. They were tightly connected to it, unable to leave it even after their death. And I believe that this very special form of connection is the basis of what is as their magical gifts - they have a certain degree of power towards all the things that are part of the creation - they can alter things, bring them to harmony to their will. The intent they were created for is preserving the creation - and this is also source of their greatest temptations: halting the changes, creating small sanctuaries, where things do not change, and withdraw from the world that has been corrupted and is undergoing constant and severe mutations in many ways.
They exhibit power especially through the process of art creating (secondary creation as defined by Tolkien himself). For example nearly any object their created could be defined as an artifact - from things of mundane use, as a rope, to weapons and high jewellery, as were the Silmarils. They wielded similar power over their bodies, enabling them to endure conditions as harsh as the march over Helcaraxe, not being as dependent on outer sources (such as food), and being generally able to maintain higher level of control over their bodies (they were for example not subject to diseases, another beautiful example is the way Luthien could work with her hair). In similar way they were able to maintain certain degree of influence over another beings, e.g. through the art of songs (Luthien luring Melkor into sleep).

Men
There is one basic difference between men and elves - the elves remained uncorrupted in qualitative manner where the man were a fallen race - that is clearly stated in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. In the beginning, even before men met elves, they had been deceived by Melkor and lured into serving him and worshiping him. The results were severe - although they were made mortal by purpose (not tied to Arda by purpose of their Creator), now they were subjects to accidental death, diseases, and were not generally able to choose the time they leave Arda. Also their racial "blessings" were changed, and perhaps even diminished, to a degree - and because of that it is far more difficult to determine what they were originally.
It is sure however that they were meant not to preserve Arda as it was created, but to channel way to fundamentally change it. The elves were meant to be the bearers of protection and preservation, man kind to harbor the change. My guess is that as the elves were connected to Arda itself men were connected to something beyond the boundaries of Arda - and that their gifts would be relevant to that.
Now I do not think that most of the magic we see children of men to exhibit is relevant to these gifts. The Istari were not men themselves. Nazghuls (even before their final corruption) wielded great deal of sorcerous power, and the same can be said about Mouth of Sauron for example - but that power was probably base on the "Melkor-corruption-element" as set forth in the Melkor's Ring. Aragorn was a gifted healer and many Numenorians were truly extraordinary smiths - but that can be attributed to their elven lineage. And beyond that I did not found anything really explicit.
But when we come back to the beginning we see that the origin of men was special in one way - where the elves woke with wonder and love for Arda itself, men woke with inherent ability to communicate with Eru himself (as laid in Athrabeth again). This is again coherent with their connection outside of Arda and created realm - perhaps to Eru himself. They were the means He chose the battle the degenerative changes introduced into creation by Melkor as soon as the Music of Ainur proceeded. Now I believe that this gift of their was shaded by their fall and only can be seen in greater picture. As Tolkien himself was a christian I tend to believe that it could be akin to the power allegedly held by christian priests - power of healing, prayer and may be authority over spirits (like elven fear that decided not to return to Mandos, looking for new bodies, as mentioned in the works, or perhaps the Cursed...).

Maiar
As my "research" was originally focused on elves and men there is only a little I could say about maiar and istari. Perhaps their connection to a sponsoring Vala is the most accurate way to set basis for their powers, perhaps not so much. However it is for sure their power was purposefully limited to a great extent when they returned to Endorenna - e.g. they were not willing to give up their bodies even when it would help them immensely, e.g. breaking loose from imprisonment in Orthank on both occasions. Basically it should be possible even for men to "borrow" some of the valieric power (as I believe that was the case with ring wraiths), but whether it would be possible even with the power of maiar I am very uncertain.
However I like the giving up of human fate as Kaltharion set forth, that is amazing idea, and quite akin to my point of view!

Well I hope that my rants were of at least marginal benefit to anyone I just love the topic and could debate about it for a long time...

Kaltharion - Greetings,

What a wonderfully thought out magic system. The way I read it, and correct me in this, is that you have developed a system in the first part to influence skill rolls. The "influence" you have named appropriately "Magic" with it's three paths, the new Virtues and Wards to "power" the influence, and a mentoring structure tied to a Wizard. And, in the second part, with discrete spells to accomplish more familiar affects.

If I'm reading it aright, then your system's logic and elegance is very attractive.

As Faire mentions, Tolkien had very specific thoughts on "Magic" that can be found in The Letters and the so-called Marquette notes. Thinking that it might be worthwhile, here is one way of reading Tolkien and "magic" drawing on his own thoughts from these non-canonical sources. Just a side note, I place magic in quotes because Tolkien himself felt the word inaccurate for what he wanted to convey. In terms of the stories, being hobbit-centric, magic would be the word they would use but not the author himself (or his Elven characters).

"Magic's" basic function is immediacy; or to make a person's will more quickly affective in Arda. The most important aspect lies in magic's inextricable link with the Song of Creation (Ainulindale) sung by the Ainur. This link, in the most important sense, provides two basic motives for "Magic" as it is employed by those opposed to the Shadow (Morgoth's legacy): the completion of Creation as it was envisioned in the Ainulindale; that is, the works of the Wise to make whole Arda as it was intended before being marred by Melkor (and continues to be marred by Sauron and Morgoth's legacies). This is one of the fundamental roles of Elves in Middle-earth, to assist in the making of Arda as it was always meant to be: for this reason Tolkien calls Elven "magic" art because it is primarily creative. The second motive, is to inspire the heart's of the Free People's to acts of Valour and courage; and, in so doing, provide a bulwark against the encroaching Shadow and it's ongoing attempt to remake (mar) Arda according to Melkor's selfish desires (Sauron being the prime agent of this force that is marring Arda in the Third Age). Both motives focus around realizing the promise contained in the Ainulindale through helping to make it real, and opposing those who would subvert it to their own selfish ends. (Oddly and coincidentally, although not by chance I imagine, Tolkien expressly talks about the works of the Wise and the deeds of the Valorous in relation to "magic" and TOR provides these basic ideas with Wisdom and Valour. I will come to this later.)

The second most important aspect of Tolkien's conception of "magic" is the intention behind its use. And, for this there are two basic intentions: to affect the physical world and to affect subjectivity. Tolkien terms the former magia and the latter goetia. Given the etymology, you might translate these into English as Magic and Glamour. Forging the Ring of Power is an act of Magic, it works with the material of Arda. Sauron as Annatar deceiving the Elves of Eregion by masking his nature would be a Glamour. The forging of the Elven Rings is an Act of Magic whose motive was grounded in Wisdom. That is, the act of the Wise to help realize the promise contained in the Ainulindale. (However, the motive was corrupted without the Elves fully realizing this as the works under taken with the power of the Elven Rings became more about forestalling the fading of Elves from Middle-earth. I will speak more to this later.) Gandalf's display of power against the Witch King as he passes through the broken gates of Minas Tirith, a Glamour whose intention is an act of Valour that inspires as well as challenges the Wringwraith. More simply,the flaming pine cone in The Hobbit an Act of Magic with Valorous intention. (On first inspection it might be argued that this last example is hardly an act at stemming the Shadow's continued marring of Arda. But, when placed in a larger context of Gandalf's purpose, it becomes clear how even this simple act serves a greater purpose.)

Then there is the method used for achieving the intention. Whereas intention is specifically discussed in the letters, methods require plumbing the sources and narrative material, but here is an interesting selection: spells (the obvious), incantations, enchantments, songs of power, masks and seemings, technology (this is by the far the most interesting as this was the Enemy's primary magic for manipulating the physical world in a corruptive way, but also dwarves were great masters of technology as expressions of their "magical" nature), and art (by far one of the most important for understanding elves)--and this is by no means exhaustive or definitive of method. After intention and method, there is purpose. I find that one the hardest to capture. Here are some thoughts based again on the narrative: rally heart's against despair, and counter the deceptions and devices of the Enemy.

Here are my thoughts translated into a game mechanics.

The system should clearly capture motive, intention, method and purpose. These four provide framework for describing the affect in the game, the cost to the player-hero, and the possible consequences. First establish intention, whether or not to influence a subject (I.e., another person) or the physical world: the former in Tolkien's own words would be Glamour, and the latter would be Magic.

Choose a method tied to a common skill. For example, Craft for creating an item, Singing for songs of power and enchantments, Awe and Inspire, Lore for spells, etc. (Let me offer a tangent. To call all Tolkien-style magical affects "spells" would not harmonize with the setting. Spells were one of many forms of magical affect. Better yet create a list of spells, enchantments, incantations, songs, crafts with each one tied to a specific common skill that determines the test involved.)

Finally, declare the purpose and tie this to either to Wisdom or Valour. At this point narrative would need to take over to detail how the desired magical affect is either an act of Wisdom or Valour. Finally, based on the purpose (whether an act of Wisdom or Valour) require a resistance roll using that characteristic. This resistance roll would determine whether or not the motive was flawed by Shadow. A failed test of Wisdom or Valour would be similar to a failed Corruption Test with the player-hero gaining a point of Shadow. Also, give each magical affect an associated drain on endurance, a cost of sorts. Also, if a player-hero wanted to work Magic or Glamour but could not create a narrative reason as either an act of Wisdom or Valour or it was clearly an act of self-gain, that would equate to an automatic failure of the Resistance Test and an accrual of Shadow. All of this is meant to capture that even the best intentions can be marred in the most subtle and insidious ways, sometimes without even a player-hero noticing. A successful "casting" and a failed Wisdom or Valour Test might me something vy tangible to the narrative. A Glamour whose purpose is fueled by a sense of Valour, inspiring the Hope of others or quenching the Hate of the Enemy, might really be fueled by hidden fear in the player-hero, something before unnoticed but captued by the failed test and Shadow accrual. Think here of these of the Elven Rings, only in the end does Galadriel truly understand her motive for using the ring to preserve Lorien. In game terms, failed Wisdom Tests that resulted in the accumulation of Shadow. Although, in her case and because she occupied a Sanctuary, we might assume she was constantly undertaking to purge herself of this gnawing Shadow.

Virtues and Rewards establish the basis for possessing Magic and Glamour, and undertakings are required to develop competency in either along with the expenditure of experience.

Regards,
E

Ps, would this discussion fit better in HoF, Waybread, Other Minds, or this forum...? Now that's an interesting question to consider for the proposed fanzine.

An excellent summation of Tolkien's main views on magic, could not have put it better myself. I will only add that Tolkien also implies that 'sorcery' (being a tool of The Shadow) is also highly seductive and addictive, but does not elaborate on why, so I came up with my own house rules that sorcery is actually easier to both learn and achieve effects from. (Perhaps only requires at least one permanent Shadow Point??)

I actually elaborated for my players once how to 'Open A Door' using different methods of magic, and (more importantly) the consequences in so doing, as a way of trying to get players to understand why wizards such as Gandalf don't go around casting magic willy-nilly everywhere.

Thus another reason why 'tis easy for even those with the best intentions to stray...

Robin S.
PS I am working on converting Decipher's Magic system at the moment...

Would you consider making this available? While my vote is still out on adding an independent magic system to TOR (whether for player-heroes or LM characters), I am thoroughly enjoying all the different approaches underway as they have been fuel for the imagination!

Regards,
E

BUMP! Where did the pdf go?

Many of the original resources linked to in early threads are expiring. These links require owner activity, views, or clicks, every n days/months; without the author making some effort to maintain these links, eventually they will all disappear unless re-upped by third parties.

Which is why I added Kaltharion's LM Screen to my downloads a week or so back. I am not sure if I have this file.

Unfortunately this is one of the files that had already lapsed.

So unless one of the other regulars has a copy, or Kaltharion returns, we might be out of luck as far as seeing the final version. Obviously a 0.9-ish version could be hacked together from posts, but might be missing relevant but previously unreleased content.

PS: The LM Screen is the only Fan Supplement item I have created by Kaltharion.

I took a copy on 25 Feb 2012, now uploaded to my Dropbox space here.

I'm only sorry I didn't catch the character sheets, too -- especially the one with Hope/Damage tracks. I and mygroup also think these would work better as tracks rather than boxes in which to write/erase/rewrite a single number, but I haven't got round to tackling that myself yet...

--Osric of Ossulston, "At your service."

Thanks Osric for sharing. Hopefully someone else has copies of the Character Sheets.

Is this the character sheet you are after?

Dwimmer Crafter Character Sheet PDF

ROBIN S.

Thanks Robin, that appears to be the correct CS (I've never seen it before).

Like an idiot, I only printed it off but didn't save a copy of it. Was it a pdf? I don't even remember now.

Yes, Kaltharion's LM Screen was a PDF. I posted a link just recently if you want to obtain a copy of the PDF for yourself.