I think this map is meant to be a game aid so, for me personally, it makes sense that it should represent such information as documented, described, and/or alluded to within the RPG.

I must admit I kind of see the "toy market" reference as Stormcrow does. Mind, I'm only speaking with reference to the quote Tensen01 provided. So there might be material that pertains that I'm ignorant of. This is, actually, one part of the books I have not read yet.

Anyway, I kind of see this as being like the old, "market days" where a town might have limited space for stalls and hundreds of potential merchants on any given day. Because of this, the Town Market (place) focused a particular day's marketable product to a certain wide category. So there is a Fish Day, Fowler Day, etc. (I've used "Day" so as not to confuse the event with a , but is otherwise the same thing.) Perhaps with some kind of division to the type of toy being sold. Like "Metal Toy Monday" and "(Any) Toy Thursday"?

The only thing wrong with the above is I would imagine the Toy Makers would become divisive about Metal Day as it is almost a racially segregated event. Not that other races cannot create such items, but lets be honest the Dwarfs are going to substantially dominate the Metal Toy field. On the other hand, maybe that kind of divisiveness is desired?

As to where the toy manufacturers have located their shops, I've got no comment. Because as mentioned it could be a specific part of the city (which is what did happen historically with businesses), or like a more contemporary city it might be spread out to capture the areas immediate market (neighbors).

Hmmm... I wonder if there are any stone toys? Floating pumice-carved boats? Stone building blocks? I wonder what else might a toymaker derive from stone? Sorry, side-tracked by creativity.

As far as I know, Tolkien doesn't say Anything about it, and as such the only reference IS what is said in game. If I am incorrect please let me know. But the game is the only guide for that I have and is what I am going by. (Though until this point the Toy Market had not even been mentioned as is not on the map).

I said associated time period, as in the time period on Earth we associate to corresponding to Middle Earth, I.E. Early Medieval(For me at least).

And that's the last I'll say as I got a very pedantic vibe from that comment, not clarification.

On Garn's side-track:
The thing that immediately comes to mind is Lodestones! Perhaps a lore-master would consider such to belong in the category of metal rather than stone, but it's delved as stone.

If you subscribe to the opinion that the Lonely Mountan is a volcano -- extinct, dormant or <ulp> otherwise -- then it's likely to be one of the only sources of lodestone in northwestern Middle-earth. And if magnetism isn't a candidate for 'magical' toys, then I don't know what is!

Soapstone is eminently carve-able, and might be preferred over wood by those dwarven toymaker types. So any sort of figurine, articulated or otherwise, would seem likely.
Playing pieces -- not to say chess sets. IIRC Tolkien uses chess metaphors in his prose, so some readers infer that chess or an analogous game must have been known to Middle-earthers.

Quartz (some quartzes?) glows faintly when struck, or when two pieces are rubbed together. There may be toy potential in that.

Cheers,
--Os.

Osric,
Thanks for the info. I'll have to consider where and how I can put it to use.


Tensen01,
Just a suggestion, perhaps change Black Shaft to Black Rock?

This would reference the original upthrust of black-colored rock (a basalt) being thrust upward from below. Suggesting, interestingly enough, that Erebor is a stratovalcano (like Mt Fuji, Krakatoa, Vesuvius, Mt St. Helens and Mt Pinatubo) and that there were lots of cinder and spatter cones (ash or magma erupting from smaller, side vents) which might account for the "arms" of Erebor - something that always struck me as very odd considering the otherwise open terrain.

The magma chamber might have been shunted aside/closed off with the destruction of Angband, leaving Erebor as a dormant volcano if a LM prefers.

I've already changed it to "The Black Fletching" Calling it Black Rock would probably cause some confusion as it's nowhere near the Blackrock Promenade.

Getting ready to type everything up... Really wishing I had a copy of Indesign

Yep - Os beat me to the punch.... I too suggest soapstone for toys, figurines, dolls, etc.
Other stone toys to consider:
- carved puzzles
- waterclocks (dunno how they work - I'm not a Dwarven clockmaker)
- marbles. Simple but fun
- small blocks intended to make model fortifications. I'm sure the late 3rdAge equivalent of model-railway might be model-castle construction???
Hehe... at Blocca the Dwarven-craftsman's stall is his merchant Leggo the Hobbit (sorry! ) selling handcarved mini-masonry - popular amongst engineers & generals, and young'uns who play at being generals & lords!

Oh and Tensen - I was thinking you might consider swapping the Redstone descriptor with Onyx for the BlackRock area? Kinda makes more sense...
Alternatively - 'OldStone' is worth considering. (Your call of course, MapMeister).

Also - I checked out your DeviantArt work .... brilliant! When do you find time to create all that?
What a boon it is to have an artist in a gaming group, it adds a whole extra dimension to enjoy.
I fondly recall a friend's Champions campaign where each session we'd get the comicbook cover of our previous session's adventure.... magic!
I hope to read your Fantast-X comics some day (I imagine Marvel must contract you for this to happen, what with licensing?)

Hmmm well that makes much more sense doesn't it. It will be changed!

Well, time? I'm currently unemployed so I have lots of time, though The map of Dale is pretty much the only art I've done recently. Just haven't had a whole lot of inspiration or reason to just draw. Though I'm trying to work on character portraits for my TOR group... not having a lot of Success.

Stormcrow, what is it that makes you so sure? This is the phrase from The Hobbit that mentions the 'toy-market':

"So my grandfather's halls became full of armour and jewels and carvings and cups, and the toy-market of Dale was the wonder of the North."

Considering that later in the book we enter a city that has a 'market-place' and a 'market-pool' I find it pretty unlikely that with 'toy-market' Tolkien meant 'toy-industry' rather than a physical place.

Francesco

Mostly because an entire marketplace devoted to toys doesn't make any sense in the Northman culture that Dale represented. There would be toymakers, especially among the dwarves, and maybe even toy shops. At best there might be an occasional toy fair, but certainly not twice a week. The Dalelings (would that be the right word?) might have been rich, but they wouldn't have been wallowing in that much luxury.

As soon as I read about the toy market of Dale in the rule book, I knew the line you have quoted had been read too simplistically. It's not a big deal, though; it's not an essential detail.

It's not Twice a week it's twice a month. It basically IS the toy-fair you described as making sense.

And I personally feel that, in the context of the actual quote from the Hobbit the LMB interpretation seems spot on.

"The Toy-market in Dale was the wonder of the North."

That phrasing implies a physical market. I think you're reading too much into it as opposed to Francesco reading too simplistically. There is no other reference to the act of buying and selling or the concept of demand as being a "Market" in any of the books as far as I know. Every use of it that I'm aware of is as a physical place. A Market. I don't see how assuming it was meant the same way here is reading it "too simplistically". Especially taking into account that the Hobbit is a kids book. Taking things as written and simplistically is exactly how I think they should be read.

Yeah. I don't think Thorin ever wrote for The Economist.

I don't see any such implication. "Market" has multiple meanings: one is marketplace; another is a particular trade. The sentence spoken by Thorin does not make clear which he means, so we must decide which makes the most sense. In writing the rule books, Francesco decided that it was a semi-monthly marketplace; I don't think it likely that any town, even one as prosperous as Dale, could support twenty-four days a year with a marketplace devoted to nothing but toys. There wouldn't be—dare I say it—a market for it.

There is more to the quotation that is usually left off.

The toy market was therefore known far and wide ("the wonder of the North"), and was part of what attracted Smaug to the Mountain. A semi-monthly marketplace in Dale, even of magical toys, would be less well-known than a large shipping industry selling magical toys throughout the North, or even a well-advertised, annual marketplace event.

In any case, as I said, it's not a big issue. There's no need to go snarking about Thorin writing for the Economist. Choose the interpretation that works best for you.

Okay all, sorry that I have been persona-non-grata, I had some computer issues and have only now been able to get back on.

I can now begin work on the actual PDF.

Would anyone out there be willing to write an introduction? I wrote one but it's only like a paragraph and basically just says "This is Dale, people on the forum worked on it."

Little bit of a sneak preview:



Built from scratch using unique elements to replicate the aesthetic of the game books

Permission to squee?
That's amazing!

Permission granted

Thanks!

Very nice indeed. I think there should be a double T in Gazetteer though.

You are Correct! I had it right in the file name. But Photoshop doesn't spell check. Thanks for Catching it...

I've been debating redoing the logo anyways... Not sure if I'm happy with the "Dale" typeface

I think 'Dale Sourcebook' would match the Lake-town supplement nicely.

I love the cover image!

Good stuff,

Francesco

The font used for the title is fine.

What struck me was the width of the canal shown - which is far too wide. It's got to be 60' minimum (by comparing the size of the people to the gondola and the gondola to the canal's width) and there isn't enough manufacturing or shipping going on to support something that huge. Even assuming it was designed with "future growth" in mind.

For comparison, the Grand Canal in Venice, Italy is 98-295 feet wide; however the city was also the center of international shipping in Europe and the Mediterranean. Even Bruges' canals are not that wide with the exception of the waterway leading to the sea.

I am well aware it's not perfect but, you going to create a new image for the cover? Because I am no painter.

If you can find a better picture I'm all for it, but I arrived at that one after an hour or better of searching and it was chosen a)it was fairly high res and b)it's copyright free due to it's age c)it had a proper composition for a cover image.

That is, in fact, the grand canal in Venice...

Maybe we say that's a section of the Long Quay?

Thanks!! Means a lot.

Looks awesome Tensen, well done!

Seriously though - awesome job Tensen!
I agree with Garn that the image depicts quite the BIG canal. As I too am not a painter then I concur with you - that's gotta be the Long Quay.

Hey - I hadn't read any prior mentions of gondolas, and was going to surprise you with submission of a gondola-service business ... Well I haven't begun that little project and now the gondola-cat is out of the bag - everyone will want to create their own gondolas!
Now there's a fun project for creative TORfellows - submit an NPC (one of many plying the canals of Dale) to be signatory on the inaugural charter of the Gondoliers Guild of Dale.

Hear ye, hear ye! Plenty of work to be had ferrying townsfolk & goods ... I'll provide the gondola - all ye need're arms fit to row her, some town-sense and the urge to earn coin. We're a vital service to Dale, so roll up me hearties! - Captain Tragheddi (retired Gondorian Naval officer from Pelargir, now self-styled founder & Master of the GGD)

Hi Tensen, you've mentioned some amendments subsequent to the last posting of your splendid Dale map, so I'm wondering if you plan to post an updated map, or will you be including it in your highly anticipated Dale sourcebook?

I would, but I've pretty much run out of room on the super fancy map. Though they will be included on the interior map. I will though be updating the fancy map to include some of the major changes.

It's mostly a few other merchants both on the White Way and on Blackrock.

So feel free to throw out some more ideas.

There must be a dwarven toy store i Dale, that would be so cool. Every Hobbit in Shire will haunt their moms and dads about the legendary toys from Dale... I bet there will be more thsn one caravan from dale to Shire


............btw The Map is amazing and so inspiring! I love to makes maps too.... so you inspire me to make more of em, thank you!

There is one Khamul. Fraeg and Son.

This is an amazing piece of fan-created material. Will it eventually be downloadable as a PDF? I would print it all like a shot once it's finished.

Yes, once I'm gone formatting and typing and everything (It's taking a little while), I will release this as a pdf, including a full-res copy of the fancy map to be printed at 11x17 for use at the table.

thats awesome and very good news.

Now tell me on what street I find the Halflings hot pot Inn.

Well now, I think that's up to you... I have plenty of room on the Blackrock Promenade or the White Way.

Though I think we're getting a little over-saturated with Public Houses and not enough Merchants/Services

Let's not forget Blocca the Dwarven-craftsman's little workshop selling handcarved mini-masonry for constructing model castles & fortifications - popular amongst engineers, generals, lords & those who play at such!

Ingela's knitting and colour shop
Erik's pots and pans
Halvdor & sons Men's clothing and headwear
Brokk and Lokki: Herbs and potions
The Golden Dragon: Goods and Tradings
The goose-quill: pen and paper
The Blazing Wheel: Coach's & Wagons

I'm so tempted to ask you to rename this Blazing Saddles

Hahaha +1

Bear in mind, too, that the norm would be several businesses of a given type, particularly for products from Dale or Erebor. So, there ought to be multiple weaponcrafters, multiple armourers, multiple toy shops, and so on. This would then play into lanes, avenues, canals, and whatnot being named after the businesses/guilds that dominate the street. Speaking of guilds, assuming that they exist in Dale, make sure to include guildhouses (which will then require some inspiration in terms of guild names, since they are often rather creative and frequently only loosely associated with the guild's activity).

That's all assuming you want to recreate Dale based on historical models.