In the battle of Hornburg in LotR, Helm's Deep is breached by some kind of bomb, presumably crafted by Saruman. Gandalf is also reputed for the excellence of his fireworks, implying that there are others of lesser quality. On the porch of Goblin-town in The Hobbit (Over Hill and Under Hill), Galdalf also zaps a handful of goblins with a lightning spell which leaves a smell of gunpowder in the air. Dalesmen also produce backawrappers and firecrackers of some sort IIRC.

Just how common is the knowledge of gunpowder and other explosives substances? How 'arcane' is the knowledge of their conception and how 'magical' are considered their effects?

Not sure what the official line is, but I would treat it as Alchemy and restrict it to those with knowledge of the magical arts.

According to the LM book, Dwarves from Erebor sell fireworks in Dale, at the toy market. I decided that one of my Dwarf PC could use them and build a fireworks show with a Craft roll, by the way.

Tolkien seems to handle fireworks and gunpowder in the Chinese fashion. There was a kind of mental disconnect between fireworks as an art form and gunpowder as a weapon. I'm not sure how much of this was simply due to unstable manufacturing conditions leading to horrific accidents.

An hour long PBS show illustrated that many of our most current and cutting edge weapons had ancient gunpowder equivalents. Specifically I recall missiles and grenades, possibly a one-shot gun and a form of landmine; cannot recall others but know more existed. It's been a couple of years since I saw the show.

In game terms, this gets a bit awkward because this technology changed the world - something we cannot do to Middle-earth.

I would handle it as some cultures/s know about fireworks, but few of those have the knowledge or skill to use it in a gunpowder related form. When attempting to do so they invariably end up destroying themselves - at some point. So while someone may have the use of gunpowder for a very limited time, eventually it is seen as just too dangerous to pursue. The most effective practitioners of gunpowder technology being Istari, Maiar and other divine related beings, with usage being unique and specific applications, like Saruman's. (Note how close Wormtongue comes to blowing up Saruman in the PJ Movies.)

This leads to potential problems though as Morgoth would personally have had access to gunpowder, the knowledge to refine it and to prevent industrial accidents. Widespread adoption of gunpowder technology was probably only prevented by the lack of a reliable and skilled labor force to manufacture weaponry. Orcs, including the manufacturers, might consider guns blowing-up in the face of the troops, to be the height of practical jokes. Faced with the possibility of having to personally stand watch over the gun-makers, Morgoth simply let the technology lapse. (Can't rely on the orcs, dragons would construe this as competition and ignite it, other creatures are too stupid. Intelligent creatures too valuable to waste on such a low-value project.)

AFAIK Tolkien never elaborated on this. You only have the mentioned facts of fireworks and the "blasting fire" at the Hornburg. Interestingly enough, the latter is only described in a way we easily interpret as gunpowder use. The words as written however seem to stem from someone completely unfamiliar with it, as there are no familiar "gunpowder" terms used here.

Given these facts, the interpretation taken by the LotRRPG (MERP never made a point of this IIRC) seems not too bad IMO: It was developed as a cooperative effort by a tribe of eastern Dwarves and Saruman when he stayed with them and it was used as a weapon in evicting Sauron from his eastern hideout in the 25th century TA. Perhaps it was also re-used by the White Council in their TA 2941 attack, as it is stressed that this temporary victory was largely made possible by the "arts of Saruman".

Thus Saruman himself developed the knowledge and skills, perhaps sharing it with Gandalf to a degree (remember that he was still one of the good guys in that time) as well as Durin's Folk might have got it from their eastern brethren (or Saruman, who is supposed to be at very good relations with the Naugrim in general). Alternatively, Gandalf may have got his knowledge from Durin's Folk directly.

This would make gunpowder existent (obviously), but the skills and secrets of its make and use are restricted to a select circle - which generally does not include PC's.

Cheers
Tolwen

Quite.
Specifically, Aragorn calls it "Devilry of Saruman!", "the fire of Orthanc", and later "a devilry from Orthanc... a blasting fire".

"Devilry" cold be taken to refer literally to the feats of the Dark Lords or their lesser-spirit úmaia followers -- but I don't think Aragorn could mean that specifically of Saruman, however far he had 'fallen'.

Most commentators interpret Tolkien's use of the English word "hell" not as a Christian reference, but as a corresponding/roughly-equivalent Middle-earth reference -- to Utumno or Angband.
By extension, "devilry" would be the fearsome and scarcely-understood works of the Enemies and their minions. Most would at least suspect them of being 'magic', even morgûl sorcerous if their knowledge extended that far. And maybe some are.

But there's no sense that the joyful fireworks of Dale were held in the same sort of dread. Like Garbar, I would treat it as 'Alchemy', and restrict it to those with knowledge of the magical arts, but as a specialisation not known even to most 'alchemists'.

Wes Frank gave us about a page and a half on fireworks in The Shire, mostly descriptive rather than game mechanical, and such mechanics as he did include concentrated on things that go wrong in the hands of an untrained PC rather than on the incendiary or explosive damage that fireworks might inflict if used as weapons.

Cheers,
--Os.

Another commentary on 'devilry' takes it a different direction. This doesn't answer the question of how developed were explosives in Middle-earth. However, it certainly answers the question of how Tolkien characterizes someone who uses something like an 'explosive' for warfare.

To understand Tolkien's use of 'devilry' its best to go back to its Old English meaning and from there to its correlate Indo-European root (through its Greek usage), and finally to the postulated PIE root. Each one offers in reverse order a literal, psychological, and spiritual level of meaning. The most fundamental root meaning in PIE (Proto Indo-European) is "to throw" and provides a literal level of meaning that of something thrown. That fits precisely the narrative at the literal level of action. Psychologically it takes a nuanced meaning "to throw across" and, in context, specifically as an act of debasing character. The case makes this reflexive, so at a psychological level the 'devilry of Saruman' actually makes a statement about Saruman's character: Saruman has debased himself by developing a blasting fire. Lastly and, most importantly, the spiritual meaning is a direct association with the devil. This is not just a nuanced level of meaning, but meaning further fragmented. This associates the object explicitly to the Enemy. However, the fact he uses a word rooted primarily in a transitive verb suggests its in the act, the actual usage that the association with the Enemy occurs. Boring and cumbersome at times, I know...

...but, that said: Someone who uses "explosives" in like fashion would assume all the levels of meaning associated with the word 'devilry' as described above: a debased character whose action whether consciously or unconsciously is aligned to the Enemy. Of course, explosive don't need to to be played this way in TOR. But, that is how Tolkien wrote. Every word purposefully chosen, tasted, tested, contemplated, cast out or kept because of the meaning it could provide at the spiritual and psychological level as well as the literal.

Just more "ox bones" for the soup...

Best regards,
E

Interesting discussion and we've all broached slightly different aspects of the issue while still effectively arriving at the same result: Limited fireworks. No guns. Extremely rare bombs.

Now that you mention it, that particular scene at the Hornburg pissed me to no end.

Seriously, the Maori rugby player dashing for a try with the bomb/land mine was completely out of place, the scene being flashy notwhitstanding. The same could have been accomplished with a testudo covering an orc, goblin or renegade dwarf engineer setting the charge and lighting the fuse.

"Now that you mention it, that particular scene at the Hornburg pissed me to no end."

What I found interesting about the way that scene was done was all through the rest of the movie triolgy Legolas was killing orcs left-right-center with one arrow. And, this toad he couldn't drop with two shots? Saved by story necessity, I guess.

...funny how that always happens in movie adaptations, no...?

What about the fact that many of the other Uruks standing nearby had torches as well. Was the Beserker's torch a special sparkly torch or what?

Zjordi,
Delivery via testudo would have been slow, boring and lost amongst the other action on the battlefield. So the sudden explosion would have represented a continuity problem for most viewers confused by the explosion of a bomb they saw Saruman crafting, but never saw placed.

Mr. Rugby made the bomb delivery interesting and memorable. Love it or hate it PJ found a viable way to resolve the issue.

Mind you, I'm not saying he was right.


Poosticks7,
I saw it sparkle. Didn't you see it sparkle?

Although it doesn't have to do with gunpowder, is the reference to a pop-gun in An Unexpected Party should be taken literally? Is that something young hobbits play with in the Shire?

Is this the reference to pop-guns you mean? It was the only reference to a pistol I could find in the text explicitly within the chapter.

I would treat this, as well as the later reference to guns in comparison to Beorn's battle cries during the BoFA, as an anachronistic word choice. Remember, The Hobbit (a children's book) was "post-edited" to introduce Hobbits and the Middle-earth setting to readers of the Lord of the Rings. This might have been one of the details Tolkien should have, but never did, correct during that conversion.

As for fireworks, I had a thought on that. I always figured that the making of fire was a rare alchemal....uh, thing. But what I always thought was that Gandalf, being an immortal sage, knew about. He was under rules that prevented him from using his "magic" for anything direct. But here was a man(?) made version of fire. And seeing that Gandalf is the keeper of fire, this would peek his interest. He could indulge in manipulating it while sticking to the spirit of the rules he was under. Thus his reputaion for quality in fireworks.

I am sure he REALLY enjoyed this.

A least that's what i always thought. It took the warped mind of Saruman to weaponize it. I'm sure this did change to world forever. And not for the better.