In the Travelling section, it mentions Fatigue tests. What's a Fatigue test?

Let me clarify my Fatigue Test question - on page 34 of the Loremaster's book it mentions Fatigue Tests. What skill is used for a Fatigue Test? Travel? It doesn't say.

Another question, page 30 in the Loremaster's book discusses awarding Advancement Points. It says to reward them per skill group up a maximum of three per group (the three pips on the character sheet.) On page 171 of the Adventurer's book it discusses spending Advancement Points, but the table showing the costs for increasing common skills is 4/8/12 etc. How does the rewarding per group up to three (LM p.30) interact with this table (AD p.171)?

One more - sorry - is it right to assume that buying a rank in Wisdom or Valour (AD p.171 again) corresponds to receiving a Reward (Valour) or Virtue (Wisdom) - it doesn't say. Otherwise, I can't see a reason to increase these.

Thanks to anyone who wants to tackle these. I'll keep reading through it to try and find answers myself.

-I

That's a good question, because it doesn't appear to be spelled out specifically. However, according to the skill description of Travel on page 89 of the AB, it indicates that:

"When the company needs to cover a distance across uncertain territory, including by boat, every companion may be required to perform one or more tests using the Travel skill to avoid becoming weary too soon."

This, to me, indicates that Travel is the correct skill to test during a Journey to resist Fatigue.

At the end of an adventure, advancement points are collected (and written in a box on page 2 of the character sheet I think) then you buy skill advancements from that pool of points.

I assumed as much, the Travel skill having no other possible use. Maybe it should be called a Travel Test.

If a character fails the test, his Fatigue doubles, and it might result in a Hazard event. A high Fatigue means the character becomes Weary easier, because his Endurance will fall below it faster, if it hasn't already. Why not just make the character Weary if he fails the Fatigue/Travel test?

Does it say anywhere when the increased Fatigue goes away? I know Weary goes away after a prolonged rest.

I'm interested in this because playing travel out like this is something unique to this rpg.

-I

So you total all the filled in pips and that's your Advancement Point account. Motivates players to use a broad range of skills. Cool. Makes sense.

Thanks.

-I

Correct, you get a new Reward/Virtue when your Valor/Wisdon increases. But, Valor and Wisdom also add to some die rolls.

(This is from memory, I don't have the game with me so I can't tell you exactly which ones.)

Mitch

While a player-hero can receive up to three advancement points per skill group per adventuring phase, it doesn't look like they are required to spend those points immediately. In fact, there is a place on the back of the character sheet for tracking unspent advancement points. Also, it doesn't say that a particular common skill must be improved by the advancement points for that particular skill group.

To summarize, a player-hero can get up to 18 advancement points in a single adventuring phase to spend on improving common skills in the whatever manner s/he chooses, writing down unspent points on the back of the character sheet when finished.

At least, that is how I interpret it as described on pg. 120 of the Adventurer's Book.

Edit: Ninja'd!

Not quite. If a character fails the test, he suffers fatigue equal to his "Travelling Gear"... which is 2 for winter and autumn, and 1 for spring and summer (see AB pg. 155 under "Travelling Gear").

That's exactly how I interpreted the rules at well.

Travel is the correct skill to use. On pg. 29 of the Loremaster's book, it explains Fatigue tests.

AB pg. 144 "Getting Better" & "Recovery" and AB pg. 145 "Resting".

Good catch!

Thank you searchable PDFs!

Update Fatigue Rating on page 145 reads,

"If a hero reduced the total Encumbrance of his carried gear before taking a prolonged rest, he may now update his Fatigue rating accordingly (see page 107 for details.)"

Going to page 107, it reads,

"By contrast, if during play a player removes something from a hero's carried equipment, his Fatigue score is adjusted only after a prolonged rest (as the character is considered to have already suffered from the burden of the carried equipment)."

Don't think this applies to the Travel Fatigue increase.

Right you are. That makes more sense.

I saw Encumbrance and went with it. It would be nice if they had put that info with the rule referring to it.

Isn't this fun.

-I

Valour is used for Fear Tests and Wisdom used for Corruption Tests. Also both give an indication of base Tolerance in Encounters. So Valour and Wisdom, when you factor in Virtues and Rewards, are very important stats.

In terms of recovery of extra Fatigue during journeys, my gut instinct is that it would disappear at the end of the journey with a few caveats.

From p 155 of the AB:

It isn't clear but I think that the idea is that Fatigue accumulates during the journey with the final effect of making a PC weary at the destination. This can then be resolved by a prolonged rest as normal with Fatigue decreasing to just what is carried. Of course, if your destination is on fire or at war, you are likely to remain weary.

A slightly more sophisticated version of this would be reduce the Fatigue drom journeying by a certain amount from each prolonged rest whilst not journeying. Maybe 1 failed tests worth or Heart score in Fatigue.

It is starting to appear much ado about nothing. I can see checking for Fatigue if the players want (or driven, as in Merry and Pip with the Uruk) to do a forced march, cover more ground, or are pushed because they are being chased. Regular travel, maybe not. I like the Hazards though.

Has anyone come across a way to restore Endurance beyond the 1, 2, 2+Heart per prolonged rest?

I found Herbal Remedies, a Woodmen Virtue, with Fragrant Weeds, but that keeps you from going Weary the first time End. drops below Fatigue. I'm not sure how the Herb-Lore or Leechcraft traits are supposed to help healing, unless you wing it, or just use them to bump up the Healing skill test.

An unwounded character restores his Heart in End. after a half-hour rest following a battle. That helps.

I ran a test skirmish and only the rearward archer didn't loose most of his Endurance. No wounds, just lots of chop, chop, chop.

Did any one use Defensive Stances or opt to take knockback to halve Endurance loss?

I am wondering about the adversaries called shots explained on page 65 of the Loremaster' s Book.

1. The loremaster doesn' t decide himself to take called shots, but they are only used out of the situation of a failed companion attack roll and the Sauron-rune?

2. If this situation applies, the next attack of the adversary automatically needs to have at least one Tengwar-rune to succeed and be a called shot, just like with companions?

Yes. You have it right.

Knockback is a clever idea, but it locks you into the Stance you were hit with for another round, and you can't attack. Better than taking massive damage, of course. New characters taking a defensive stance have an awful time making the TN, unless they use Hope. I thought Hope might be invoked here and there, but it seemed to be needed quite often. Making the Edge only happened a couple of times, too. Since we were testing it, no one had a survival instinct about the character. We just wanted to see how it played out.

This was just one test battle. We'll try a few more, more characters, different adversaries. Some of the monster special abilities are quite nasty when combined with the two-way target TN stances and the need to make the edge to even try and deal a wound.

You can also remove you helmet in combat to get 3 Endurance back

Page 29 in Loremaster Book:

That should take care of all Fatigue Test questions I think. :-)

/wolf

Yes it does. For me, the question now is whether or not to even require it, other than the chance for a hazard. The consequences of failing the test are minimal, and, although it is not clear how the Fatigue increased this way is reduced, it would probably just require a prolonged rest.

Well, I suspect that Fatigue "increases" due to failed Travel Tests should take longer to "heal" than simply a nights sleep or three.

1. There is little point in having them heal as "easily" as Endurance loss, because if that is the case why bother raising your Fatigue at all when lowering your Endurance would achieve the same goal?

2. Since I believe they are different in nature (Endurance Loss and Fatigue Raises) I think they should have separate mechanics.

3. Travelling for 120 days (or whatever) and becoming Weary as a result, you might recover the Weary status by Resting quite easily, but you remain depleted and will risk Weariness more easily for a longer period of time after that. In essence, the Fatigue Score might remain for a lot longer. (Still not known how long). Causing your character to become less effective in Battle etc. over a period of time, reaching the "Weary" status more quickly.

4. Regardless of the time it takes to heal, it might be time that the Heroes can ill afford, depending on the adventure at hand. They might not have an Extra Week or three to recuperate and have to press on. So even though their Endurance is back on Full, their Fatigue might still be low because they could not find the time to rest.

These are just ideas, imaginings and creations of my own twisted little mind. Cause we don't have the rules at hand yet. But I would be surprised if these points could Heal as quickly (or quicker than) Endurance Loss.

/wolf

Good deal.

Here is another one - p.162 in AB -

Open Stance: Rally Comrades (under Tasks in Combat)

Instead of attacking, the character makes an Inspire or Song test to try and restore one or more Endurance points to any allies who have been injured in the current fight.

No rules - you don't have a PDF yet?

Because the way the Fatigue increase for failed Travel test is currently presented, no explanation how it is reduced, it can go one of at least two ways.

If it recovers after a prolonged rest, it's does not seem to be worth the trouble, so that assumption is probably wrong. If the travel fatigue lasts until the Fellowship phase, or a week or so rest, then it is a much more important test. I might try the more severe rule first and see how it goes. It would increases the contrast between a sanctuary or secure destination and going into hostile territory after a long journey.

You know what I mean.

I meant that we don't have the Rules for Fatigue Recovery yet. There is nothing about this in the books.

/wolf

I dunno, I am beginning to regret pre-ordering this one, what with the discussion about asymmetrical mechanisms in the other thread, and the apparent fact the rules aren't complete. This is something I intensely dislike.

I want a rulebook that contains all the rules in one place. Having to buy more suplements to cover even the most basic and vital rule mechanisms really sucks big time. I realise this is a current trend among some publishers: for example WFRP3 where you need to buy a huge pile of boxes for a complete set of rules. It may be good business sense, but it really makes my blood boil.

Hope I am not judging too hastily, but if this is where TOR is going, I won't be buying any more.

My copy of TOR is complete and playable. What basic and vital rule mechanisms do you think are missing?

Also, FWIW TOR and WFRP3e are not that similar in approach. WFRP3e reduced options across the board due to the constraints of componentry. TOR has reduced some global options (focussing on Rhovanion) to be able to give you more detailed options to choose from. So you trade breadth with depth (and ultimately have the same number of options), not breadth with components

I'm going with the Fellowship phase, or a long rest at a sanctuary or civilized . It makes you look at map as a collection of either dangerous or restorative destinations. That might be one of the intentions of the Journey rules.

As far as playing it out this way, most of the pre-generated characters, and the ones I've made, have a gap of 8-12 from Endurance to Fatigue, so missing a few Travel tests won't help things in combat. It won't make things impossible, just enough of a nuisance the player will want to be rid of them. Fatigue might also be something to target with Healing skill checks with herb-lore.

I dislike that too, but I wouldn't say the rules are incomplete. The rules are all there, it's just the setting is focused.

It's a brand new game, and most everybody is working off of a PDF. Questions are bound to come up. I think these discussions, so far, reveal a solid rules set that will expand well. Some of the mechanics don't follow the usualy rpg template, or emphasis, so there's some head scratching. It's all good.

Anyone who has ever tried to rpg in Middle-Earth (and I go back to the days waiting for the MERP red rulebook release,) knows what a challenge it is. One Ring may be the one that got the balance right (no disrespect to previous attempts, especially ICE.)

The books do seem to lack summary pages for following procedures, but I have a feeling that fans will soon be making these. I know I will be making some cheat sheets to run my games (as I always do). I will probably make a Loremaster's Screen with some of the important tables too.

For anyone nervous about the game and its rules, I would say it is a better system than MERP or CODA. I guess we can just call it the TOR system. I think it does a much better job at bringing the players into the setting of Middle-earth and encourages them to explore and discover the land, while providing useful things for them to do along the way.

CODA was so broken when it came to combat rules that I could not enjoy it; not to mention that creating a character was a huge chore. I enjoyed the subtle magic spells, but TOR is even more subtle and more true to the source material.

One last thing, I have read many different RPG books over the years, and honestly, TOR has been the easiest to read and the easiest to retain for me. I really appreciate Francesco and his editors for this.

Ok, that's why I said I hope I am not making too hasty judgements. And I haven't actually got my pdf yet, so I don't have any first hand knowledge about the rules. It's just that reading this forum you get the impression some mechanisms or rules simply arent there, or that they seem incomplete. Like fatigue recovery mentioned below, no rules mounted combat (or are there?) or the combat system apparently only covering situations where heroes fight monsters, and not heroes vs 'non-monsters', ie. the hope vs hate mechanic which I admittedly don't really understand yet. Perhaps people are still trying to find their way through the new rules?

But I wasn't going to cancel my order, I will see what it is and only then make an informed and final decision. I know the rules have a narrow (or concentrated if you prefer ) focus as far as the area and playable races are concerned, so it follows that rules for horse combat etc. might not be a priority. And I know there are further releases planned which will expand the setting, and no doubt the rules as well.

I think you are reading a few examples and making a trend that doesn't exist.

There is one errata found in the rule book, which Fatigue recovery. That's the only one.

Thee are no mounted combat rules. In an RPG emulating the Hobbit, I didn't even consider this an omission. Many RPGs, even the big ones like D&D4e, WFRP2e and WFRP3e, don't have rules for this in the core book.

The asymmetrical rule system is a more complex matter but I assure you that there are rules for PCs vs humans, monster and any type of opponent the PCs are likely to face.

If you want a positive, from my reading of the forums, TOR is getting a very positive reactions from most quarters (though not all of course), even a few doubters. Most questions are arising due to TORs relatively fresh approach to many things.

IRT Verderer:

I agree with "The King of Soul" above. ToR is one of the best RPG books to come along in years. I'm re-reading the PDFs now a second time just because I enjoyed them so much.

And the system IS great! Don't you think otherwise.

I may be whining about small tiny question marks we have (Fatigue Recover being the only "real" one actually), but that is only because I think of this stuff when I read and I want to share my thoughts and discuss with others. Not because I think the game suck.

I hope that is clear. If not I need to restrain myself. *smacks-self-down*

The Combat Mechanics (asymmetrical as they may be) is designed like that for a specific purpose and that is to immerse the players in the world and have the combat feel like it is part of Middle-Erath. It's full of atmosphere, tension and gritty stuff that I really, really like, and I think the LM will have little trouble conveying this using these rules.

Rules for Travelling are brilliant. Any game in this setting should have them, since it is something that takes up most part of the books. It's actually kind of weird that no other game before this has thought to make something like this.

/wolf