Okay, so I'm working on a map of Dale just for the hell of it and I wanted to get some opinions.

Firstly
Now, the LMB says "Dale is a city of Men built on the western bank of the Running River."

but later says "as they supervise the building of new fountains and pools and the raising of new bridges stretching across the waterways."

Get some opinions... What waterways?

The River? If that's what is meant would that mean there's building on the Eastern side? Which would contradict everything saying the town is on the western side.

Have they redirected the river to flow through other parts of town? If so... Why? I can't think of any good reason for this.

Next:

It says of the Palace: "The two great openings at the side of the great front gate are
oriented to receive the light of the sun as soon as it rises over the easternmost Mountain arm."

This implies the front entrance faces East. This may be just my own image in my head, thinking of actual medieval towns/castles, but I assumed the palace/castle would be up against the river, which would make an Easterly entrance somewhat unfeasable(though not impossible).

Now, just some general Opinions from folks.

What do we assume is the current population(approximately)? Assuming that it's made up mostly of people from Lake-Town I can't think it's that many. Even after five years there's not really that many nearby areas people can really immigrate from, Middle-Earth being less densely populated than we generally think of most fantasy worlds and actual medieval Europe. There just don't seem to be as many actual towns.

General size?
This will kind of give us an idea from population I suppose.

Now, I'm not sure how much we can trust Thror's map scale-wise, but that bend in the river seems to be pretty dang large. And if it is, Dale would be gigantic.

Now, most of the versions or Thror's map, as well as the Atlas of Middle Earth kind of either shove it up against the Northern edge or actually seem to keep it a little ways away from the river itself(Which would make tradeboats a little difficult to deal with so we'll ignore that). If it is shoved up against the northern edge, and the town isn't huge, not much of the town is against the river. Which means the LMB saying: "It rises close to the main opening to the south of the city, the Traders Gate, leading to the landings and quays along the river where the goods are loaded onto the boats going downstream," means that "leading to" equals "About halfway across town".

Now, if it fills up the whole area (Either because it's huge or the bend is smaller) that makes more sense.

Opinions? Thoughts? Theories? I'm really itching to do more with this map, but these questions and niggles have basically lead me to scrapping like 5 ideas.

The waterways reference, along the mention of fountains and pools comes from the words of Gloin to Frodo, at Rivendell:

"You should see the waterways of Dale, Frodo, and the fountains, and the pools! You should see the stone-paved roads of many colours! And the halls and cavernous streets under the earth with arches carved like trees; and the terraces and towers upon the Mountain's sides!"

I think it is safe to assume that the waterways, fountains and pools and the stone-paved roads are referred to Dale, while probably the halls and cavernous streets etc. are intended to describe Erebor.

Francesco

Wow, I have to confess that I wasn't even aware of how closely Dale is based upon information from LOTR; having read it the last time years ago, I just assumed that there was nothing on Dale beyond what is known from the end of the Hobbit. Very cool!

It can be up against the river. From my perspective, being on the western side of the river, the eastern side would be up against the river which would make a perfect spot to put in a drawbridge for the entrance ... very defensible.

Ah, okay. Interesting.

Still, seems like a pretty small place to have "waterways" whatever they mean by that.

That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

That would mean that the entrance to the castle is outside of town and that the main approach to the town is from the East. That would actually make the palace Less defensible since they wouldn't have to get through the town walls first.

UNLESS one of those Waterways is a moat... Which means this place is getting more and more complicated.

Though I don't think it's explicitely stated I think we can assume that the road to dale is on the western side of the river, passing between the river and Ravenhill, enters Dale either from the West or South then crosses the river leaving Dale to go up to the entrance of the mountain or leave alongside the river to reach the broken bridge and cross it to reach the entrance.


I'm just thinking the South, or Backside of the Palace is not a very imposing sight

Since we don't know if they'll develop Dale in Hearts of the Wild or other future releases, I'm looking forward to seeing your map

If you can find a copy, look at The Art of the Hobbit, 106-11. They do a great job summarizing Tolkien's development of Dale, including his original pix. You'll note the changes in its orientation.

BTW, just to throw a monkey wrench into your work , I've always envisioned the 'waterways' reference to indicate one or more canals. Mind, I'm not saying Venice, but it certainly would be fun to throw one or two in there, so an LM can write a mysterious tryst on a bridge at night, where your contact turns out to be less than trustworthy...

I'm off to work so I cannot give my usual long-winded answer (Hey! Stop applauding!) but it is possible that their are any number of smaller streams and other tributary waters that the Dwarfs have routed and manipulated into controlled channels so that they do not have to worry about torrential precipitation issues.

Working in stone you learn very quickly that you need to find a way to deal with both standing and running water.

And as to the reference to the underground halls and ways... they could be a kind of Dwarven Annex that connects the city of Dale and Erebor. Matter of fact that would make some sense if it the city grows between one of the arms of the mountain and a bend in the river.

We also know that Erebor is the source for the River Running so some of these minor watersources could be alternate springs from the mountain.

Not sure where I came up with the idea but I too though Dale was on the western bank of the River Running. There was something about Bilbo having to cross the River though..... Now I'm not sure.

Castles were usually built on the best defensible position, which typically meant against a natural barrier such as a river, but rivers are not the only natural barrier nor necessarily the best strategic emplacement given the geography/geology. Hills and cliffs were also popular.

At the foot of the lonely mountain, the land around Dale might still be significantly hilly or featuring cliffs to sport a better castle site than by the river, which might have been kept as an open harbour if boat-commerce was prominent during the erection of the town (especially if early dalesmen were not expecting river-borne invaders).

As for the waterways, it may refer to dredged canals and harbours linking the town to the river (or joining the river to the heart of the town) as Mim suggested. I don't think Dale would have a moat on the east side; it has the river to bar Eastern invaders.

Alright, so it's pretty much a given that there are Canals. Though I'm not too sold on the idea of other streams or tributaries as one would assume they would have been mentioned, but as far as we know there is only the River and these "waterways". I'm going to assume it's canals and not streams.

Which I can work with.

Okay, so this is the general layout I've decided on for the river (Based primarily on Thror's map and Tolkien's other drawings"



I'm not sure how I like the town not actually being against the river, though it is certainly a valid option.

The big question is "How big?" The term "Waterways" implies to me to be significant modes of transport around the city, which implies fairly large. and we can guess the distance between the tips of the two arms is probably around 5 or 6 miles.

So right now I'm kind of looking at Bruges for inspiration regarding the canals and such. And size-wise it's not too bad either since the Historic Center of the city is only about a Mile wide, and during the 14th century had a population of around 35,000. Dale could easily be that size or bigger physically, but I find it hard to believe it could have anywhere near that population, but I have a hard time visualizing numbers. But that would suggest it had almost the same amount of people as Minas Tirith (Whose first level would be about the same width) during the war of the ring, which, even though that's not what it could actually hold seems an awful lot for the area that Dale is in.

This was my take on it, based strictly from the text in the LMB:

The river arrives at Dale to the north-west then loops around it to the east (you can actually see this on Thror's map) - think of the city as a clock face, with the river looping from about 10 o'clock to 6 or 7 o'clock.

The Merchants' Quarter and Traders' Gate are at 5 or 6 o'clock, abutting the river and the quays and leading to the road going south.

Ravensgate is at 10-11 o'clock. Given that it's the wealthy area, full of Bard's closest followers, this is probably near where the palace is, too - i.e. in the western of the city, away from the river (although it could just as easily be in the centre).

As for the waterways: given the fact that the river loops around the city, I wouldn't be surprised if part of the Dwarven construction involved digging channels from where the river arrives in the north, through the city, and then rejoining the river in the south, to provide running water inside the walls. Bruges was exactly what I was thinking about, too.

Okay, so here's what I have so far...



So as you can see, I kind of straight-up cribbed portions of Bruges. The Grey is the Canals.

Pardon the roughness, it's hand-drawn. I intend on doing it digitally for the final map. And my intent is to sort of replicate the look of this map: Bruges Map

One thing you may notice is the town is divided by the canals into Four sections. I did this because the game used the word "Quarters"

And that semi-central Pentagonal area is where the palace will be.

Whatcha think?

Okay, I missed posting a response the other day. The really, really short form was: multiple tiny watercourses (2" to 3' wide; maybe 1' deep, max) could be routed and merged to provide additional access to water. Particularly as we already know that Erebor has ground water available.


Anyway, onward...

There are potential design issues with the city as regards water usage:

• Inflow: The inflow, top center, should be angled more from the left heading right and downward. This allows the water's natural momentum to keep the water flowing. The current design would not provide enough flow to push the water through the city (Flow Rate).
• Silt Trap: After the inflow some means of capturing silt is needed unless you plan to dredge the canals regularly. The Trap would be a deeper, broader area of water where only overflowing water (no deep water) can enter the canals. A pond with a run-off waterfall would work fine here. This will need dredging though - so not too deep.
• Flow Rate: I'm not sure of your map scale and the resulting rate of water flowing through the canals. Just wanted to mention that you want enough flow to pretty much push stuff in the canals out to the river.
• Sewage: I would suggest a separate sewage system, with separate inflow and most importantly, a separate outflow, much farther down river. At the least it should be somewhere around the southwest road. (Yellow lines on map.)
• Sewage Treatment: Besides just pushing sewage downstream, you could have some means of treating it. Even if the outflow was in a marsh/swamp area it would allow the greater part of the sewage to naturally break down before entering the river. (There are some indications that ancient towns and cities recognized this problem and tried, somewhat ineffectively, to handle it. No one wants to live next to refuse. Downstream neighbors especially.)
• Outflow: The two points where the canal flows outward need to be more sharply curved, down and right. If you could have them drop from above slightly (waterfall, outflow pipe) that might be better. The idea is that the curve of the river should not push water back into the canal. Think semi-colon ; but make the top another "comma" and push it's tail into the middle of the river. This would make the lower comma safe from backflow (assuming same height as river). Only problem is, the upper comma is a river hazard and will likely silt up over time.

Here is the general idea.

Thanks, I really have no clue how Canals work.

I figure Sewage runs under the city(which, going by the LMB is raised fairly high off river level).

Scale... The city is around a mile wide, maybe a little wider.

As for the "outflow", those are also how boats get into the city, so a fall would not really work.

I'm not trying to be 100% realistic with this city. But thanks for the suggestions... changes will be made.

I figure there'd be a noticeable gradient from north(-west) to south, putting the rich quarter up high and also potentially making Dale the last navigable place on the river going north.

I wouldn't take the reference to "quarters" too literally - it's a standard word referring to part of a city, irrespective of how many there are.

As for sewers, ancient cities may have put thought into them, but early medieval ones? Also, by basing it on Bruges, you're making it what would be, by Anglo-Saxon standards, a gigantic metropolis.

Hmm... one thing I forgot, a means of closing off both inflows. This would likely be a gate of some kind at both inflow points. Otherwise you've got more water going into the system than can possibly flow out. This would result in flooding.

Note that these closing mechanisms do not have to be, and should not be, completely closed off during storms. They just have to prevent excessive amounts of water from flowing into these systems. So maybe 75% of the sewage inflow and 40% of the canal inflow (I'm assuming it's open and taking in storm water from the streets) would be sufficient during torrential rains to keep things moving but hopefully not overflowing.

This might mean you need to divert water from the waterfall/overflow to a separate bypass channel that runs from the pond back to the river, farther downstream (ie, on the other side of the northern road somewhere). This would most definitely be a good place for an outflow pipe or spillway which is raised above the river's water level.

Looking good Tensen.

There's a little information on Dale in Tales of the Wilderland as well.

The gate that leads south to Esgaroth is known as Trader's Gate. The road itself is Merchant Way.

There is an open square with a fountain standing before the entrance to the palace. (I would suggest where the building is that lies to the left of your proposed palace.)

Regarding populations, Tolwen is working on an article for the next Other Minds on Settlement and Populations in Rhovanion.

I would probably say that a population of about 800-1000 people feels right to me for the default year of 2946.

Many more people who were driven into exile are returning from the west and south, so it's not only people from Laketown who make up the population. I am guesstimating that as many as 10,000 people are now in residence between Dale, Laketown, the shores of the Long Lake and it's hinterland to the east.

The population of Dale might be considered to have higher numbers of males than females.
Many of the residents would be young men, drawn from far afield, into the service of Bard the Dragonslayer. He is renowned as a gift giver(treasure of Smaug partially donated to Laketown) and as a warrior. Dale would probably have a much higher military capability than it's small population would normally support.

Likewise, there would be larger than normal numbers of craftsmen and artisans, eager to work with and learn from the Dwarves in restoring Dale to it's former majesty. (There is also a rich King to pay for their services.)

So basically... It's way too big.

Which is exactly what I thought to begin with. Okay... Scale Change... grrrr

Ovid,

Well, not much further north(Only a few miles) the river comes out of the mouth of a mountain... So yeah, not very navigable

Garn

Okay... More info than I really need for this. Thank you, I've already made several changes from your previous post, but you're using combinations of words that just go over my head. I'm a graphic designer, not a... City... builder... I'm sure they have an actual name

It occurs to me that in my eagerness to engage with this, I forgot to say how awesome your thinking and work on it is. I will be stealing many of these ideas for my group's first session in Dale tomorrow!

I wouldn't change the scale Tensen.

The town is still, probably, only partially rebuilt. It can probably accommodate many more people than currently reside there and parts of it are still almost deserted. At least, that's my view of it.

Thanks!

Not sure when the actual map will be done, and it won't be terribly detailed. It will have some sites of notes, important s and the like.

Yeah... That was exactly what I thought after I made that post. So scale is not changing... I'll be sure to mark areas not yet complete.

Ovid,
The Dwarfs of Erebor, in particular, are sitting on a humongous well. They had darned better learn how to deal with water - and sewage - because otherwise they are going to be swimming in it.

One of the only ways in which I can imagine that Erebor is the sole source for the River Running would have to be an absolutely huge underground artesian aquifer that is receiving melt-water from the Withered Heath and other northerly arctic s. Super-cooled water is capable of very strange things, including causing solid ice at sub-freezing temperatures to melt simply due to water pressure. I think it can also place enough stress on rock to cause them to give due to pressure as well - assuming their is some slight flaw to take advantage of. Of course, there is always something somewhere. And I cannot recall exactly, but something about swirling particles around in circles, inside any available declivity, causing a weird type of "drilling" over time.

My point with regards to Erebor is that as the source of the River, it is a lousy place for a mining operation. There would be constant underground water seepage because of the proximity to the water table. Particularly if there is any geothermal heating in the area (a fact unknown) to cause the water to turn into steam. So Erebor probably has some kind of water pump mechanism that operates pretty much automatically (so that Smaug cannot have messed with it); since it is so critical to all dwarven settlements, they have retained knowledge of this technology. (It occurs to me, as a wild bit of conjecture, that the Dwarfs might be responsible for the expansion and encroaching of the Long Marshes - it could be output from the pump being expelled in a less than ecologically sound manner!)

Another issue is the water pressure, which must be phenomenal to output enough water to feed a river. We know of no major surface watercourses (but probably hundreds of thousands of tiny [1" to 3'] ones meandering across the landscape), and the fact that the river is navigable almost to its source, the outflow would be incredible. Theoretically their might be a natural "gusher", or a fountain spray, of water bursting upward from the depths. Pure conjecture on my part, but it matches the facts. Of course, seeing this some early dwarf would have had to improve on it and make it more majestic. [Hmm, now that I think of it, doesn't Jon's image inside of Erebor include a fountain?]


PS: DeBeers Diamonds in their Southern African mine has water seepage problems and as I recall they were miles from any sizable lake. Which is why I say that a water pump is still a well known bit of ancient technology - every dwarven settlement has this issue and must find a way to remove water from their homes.

Tensen,
Oops, sorry about the terms. Basically you need something like "barn doors" but a little better at keeping water out, at the openings for the canals and sewers.

As for the bypass channel, it's a fancy way of saying, from the pond, have a small watercourse head due east, crossing Merchant Way. Like, 4 pixels wide.

As for how canals work, the same way as sewers - mostly gravity with some help from the amount of water pushing through the system. That is why Ovid said the northwest part of the city is higher than the rest - gravity would do the necessary work because all the rest of the city is downhill from the starting point.

Oh, and ignore my previous post entirely - it was about Erebor and the River, not at all pertinent to what you're specifically doing with the city of Dale. Which is turning out excellent.

Tensen,

Maybe a little late but there is a map of Dale in ICE's Lake-town supplement (not canon, I know, but you might get some ideas) - dated for 1640 Third Age of course...

Love what you are doing so far! Do not make the mistake ICE always made with towns/cities and over-populate - a lot of the town is probably still in ruins, or being repaired etc. - even after five years!

Robin S.

Nice map Tensen!

Another thing to keep in mind; water always takes the path of least resistance and if there wasn't any kind of obstacle (I'm thinking some kind of cliff) on the north bank of Dale, the river would go right through the city instead of around it.

[edit] Rivers also curve (or create lakes) when they "slow down" at the head of a flatter land, but the river is relatively strait from Dale to the long-lake, making me believe that the "Dale curve" is caused by an obstacle instead. I see the long-lake as the result of the river hitting a flatter land.

This could mean that the northern district of the town be slightly more elevated, making canals impossible or particularly deep over there. This topography may give the northern part of Dale a more distinct shape than Bruges, which was build on the lowlands near the sea.

This may or may not affect the position of the northern canal. At any case, the flow of the river (which we can assume has a strong-ish debit that far upstream) stresses on the south bank of the river, causing strong erosion on any southbourne canal (on the north side of Dale).

Unlike Garn, I think the northern canal would be sheltered behind a rock or small pier of some sort (natural or artificial) preventing the river front entering directly into the canal.

Okay, SO I think I have the general look finalized, unless anyone sees any major issues that would be seen at this detail level, Garn



As you can see I already started adding hills and such

Next step is to do it digitally and then populate the town, which I will be asking for your help with. Basically I'll be adding more buildings and numbering them and you'll get to pick one and name it. Same will go for some neighborhoods and streets.

Hello all,

it's fantastic what you guys are doing. I actually I have a sketch of a map for Dale somewhere that I used to make up my mind when writing the description. Not a big deal, it was different from what you are doing in the fact that it was more regular in structure, being based on how Viking towns were made.
An example:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...viking_town.jpg
But I don't want to ruin what you are doing! Your map is great and Bruges is a very good reference.

Francesco

Francesco.

Thanks! Glad you like, and I for one, would actually love to see the sketch you made.

And I tell you what... If I'd seen that picture a weeks ago things might be very different!

Tensen01,

What? Wait! Where is the Dwarven Geological Society's Museum of Soil Samples including analysis on a per grain of sand basis, and an in depth discussion and compendium of clay and composting issues from across Middle-earth? Those should be clearly marked!


Francesco,
Wow. Never knew that the Vikings had put in that much effort to detailed city planning. My first thought was someone had swapped in a Roman map and labelled it wrong. But on closer inspection it's too "town plot" and not enough courtyards or internalizing the focus of blocks/sections.

Nice image, thanks for sharing.