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Order Of Operations: Hope

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gorgonshead	Posted: Jan 24 2013, 10:16 AM
Group: Members Posts: 32 Member No.: 3091 Joined: 10-December 12	Just looking for a group consensus, but do you guys let your players know whether spending a point of hope will succeed? Or do you keep the TN a secret? -------------------- "I happen to believe that you can’t study men; you can only get to know them, which is quite a different thing." “Isn't it absolutely essential to keep a fierce Left and fierce Right, both on their toes and each terrified of the other? That's how we get things done.” ― C.S. Lewis, That Hideous Strength

Glorfindel	Posted: Jan 24 2013, 10:48 AM
Group: Members Posts: 267 Member No.: 2208 Joined: 6-December 11	IMO, players should know whether the investment of this precious resource will help or not, even if their hero doesn't. When a player hero makes a test, it already does its best. The way I see it, invoking an attribute with Hope is when the character dig deep in its reserves to succeed where it would otherwise have failed, but I find it cruel to have the player spend such a valuable resource only to be told "too bad, it still wasn't enough". Or at least if you do, give the Hope point back.

Rich H

Posted: Jan 24 2013, 10:52 AM

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QUOTE (gorgonshead @ Jan 24 2013, 02:16 PM)

Just looking for a group consensus, but do you guys let your players know whether spending a point of hope will succeed? Or do you keep the TN a secret?

I let them know that they will succeed (not the TN), based on this on page 26 of the AB:

Naturally, a player will only spend a Hope point if the modified result lets him overcome the difficulty for the action. It is only possible to spend one point of Hope on a single die roll (it is not possible to spend more points to get multiple bonuses).

... And here (page 150):

When a die roll results in a failure, the acting player may invoke an Attribute bonus and add to the result a value equal to the Attribute linked to the skill used for the attempt. If the modified result now matches or exceeds the action’s TN, then the failure is turned into a success and the player spends a point of Hope.

Bold emphasis mine. I think that certainly points to the player (i) knowing that spending a point will mean success and (ii) only spending the point after knowing this will happen, so going by the RAW (Rules As Written) you should certainly be letting the players know beforehand - whether you decide to tell them the actual TN or not though is up to you.

--------------------

1) The Fellowship of the Free - a TOR Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=3424
2) Three's Company - a TOR Hobbit-only Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=4081
3) A collection of additional and house rules for TOR: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Additiona...use%20Rules.pdf
4) Alternate Journey rules: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Rules%20-...ney%20Rules.pdf
5) Anyone for Hobbit Cricket? If so, check out my rules here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Hobbit%20Cricket.pdf
6) Keep those TOR character sheets clean, use this Scratch Sheet instead: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...tch%20Sheet.pdf
7) TOR Character Sheet (use with Scratch Sheet): https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf
8) TOR Tale of Years Sheet: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf
9) Adventure - To Journey's End and the Eagles' Eyrie: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/To%20Jour...%27%20Eyrie.pdf
10) Adventure - Dawn Comes Early: ... Coming Soon!

doctheweasel	Posted: Jan 24 2013, 01:03 PM
Group: Members Posts: 202 Member No.: 1808 Joined: 15-August 11	Knowing when Hope will make a roll successful should be above board (even if you don't tell them the TN). Hope is already too precious to have players throwing it away at nothing.

fbnaulin	Posted: Jan 24 2013, 03:25 PM
Group: Members Posts: 110 Member No.: 1625 Joined: 28-June 11	The main question has been replied. Just let me add that I tell TN to players, so they are not rolling blindly. When they know TN, rolling dice could be tenser. -------------------- Google+ Profile

Rich H

Posted: Jan 25 2013, 08:15 AM

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QUOTE (fbnaulin @ Jan 24 2013, 07:25 PM)

The main question has been replied. Just let me add that I tell TN to players, so they are not rolling blindly. When they know TN, rolling dice could be tenser.

Thinking about this I tend to not use a hard and fast rule - for me knowing or not knowing can be dramatically appropriate under different circumstances.

Also, I often tell the player the TN because their character would often know how hard something is to perform - eg, if the PC was going to leap a 6' chasm then they'd know how achievable that was for them because they all people have a good idea of how far they can jump give or take a little.

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Glorfindel	Posted: Jan 28 2013, 05:27 PM
Group: Members Posts: 267 Member No.: 2208 Joined: 6-December 11	On the matter of spending hope, does the player need to announce that (s)he is willing to spend hope to succeed before the roll is made, or can it be stated after the player notices that the test is failed?

Rich H

Posted: Jan 28 2013, 06:07 PM

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QUOTE (Glorfindel @ Jan 28 2013, 09:27 PM)

On the matter of spending hope, does the player need to announce that (s)he is willing to spend hope to succeed before the roll is made, or can it be stated after the player notices that the test is failed?

After!

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Fictionaut

Posted: Jan 28 2013, 06:43 PM

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QUOTE (Glorfindel @ Jan 28 2013, 09:27 PM)

Just backing up what Rich H said. It's definitely "After the Roll"

See Pg 150 of the Adventurer's Book.

--------------------

League of Imaginary Heroes

Glorfindel	Posted: Jan 28 2013, 07:11 PM
Group: Members Posts: 267 Member No.: 2208 Joined: 6-December 11	thanks!

Valarian	Posted: Jan 29 2013, 04:35 AM
Group: Members Posts: 420 Member No.: 1943 Joined: 18-September 11	We experimented, for a single adventuring phase, with the idea that it would cost 1 hope to add the attribute bonus before a roll, or 2 hope points after. It certainly drains hope, and adds a darker feel to the game. We switched back to the RaW during the fellowship phase, deciding against that style of play. -------------------- Current EU RPG Group Games: European FG2 RPG Friday (8pm to 11pm UK time; Ultimate License) - Classic Traveller Sunday (8pm to 11pm UK time; Ultimate License) - The One Ring: Adventures over the Edge of the Wild Using Ultimate FGII and can accept unlicensed player connections on some of the games. ----------------- LOTRO - Brandywine Server Halbras - Hobbit Hunter / Jonab - Bree-folk Captain / Ardri - Dwarf Guardian / Halaberiel - Elf Hunter

eldath	Posted: Jan 29 2013, 04:50 AM
Group: Members Posts: 109 Member No.: 1775 Joined: 8-August 11	My understanding of the RAW is that, barring in combat, the default TN will always be 14 and should be changed only very rarely. Since that is the case the Pc's should know how much they need to roll already and will be able to see whether hope expenditure will help or not. E

Poosticks7	Posted: Jan 29 2013, 10:36 AM
Group: Members Posts: 302 Member No.: 2637 Joined: 30-April 12	Just a quick related question: If a player does not meet the TN but rolls two 6s and then spends a point of hope to succeed, what level of success is it? A success or an extraordinary success? -------------------- New Backgrounds New Adversaries Big List of Trait Invoking Ideas

Glorfindel

Posted: Jan 29 2013, 11:21 AM

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QUOTE (Poosticks7 @ Jan 29 2013, 10:36 AM)

If a player does not meet the TN but rolls two 6s and then spends a point of hope to succeed, what level of success is it?

As far as I understand, if spending Hope makes the roll succeed and you've got two "6", then it's an extraordinary success (or plain failure if you don't spend Hope).

This happens relatively frequently with Weary heroes.

Throw an "Eye of Sauron" in there for an even more swingy results!

Glorfindel

Posted: Jan 29 2013, 11:26 AM

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QUOTE (eldath @ Jan 29 2013, 04:50 AM)

My understanding of the RAW is that, barring in combat, the default TN will always be 14 and should be changed only very rarely. Since that is the case the Pc's should know how much they need to roll already and will be able to see whether hope expenditure will help or not.
E

In addition, the rules encourages you to "eyeball" success, suggesting that players should have a good idea of what TN to eyeball.

Besides, each TN has a degree of difficulty. TN 14 is "moderate", 18 is "severe" etc. I find it easy to include it in the narrative: "make a severe Travel test, please"

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