I don't think having a separate TOR fanzine is the equivalent of segregating the Middle-Earth gaming community, Tolwen. Unless I'm mistaken in my timeline, the HoF and OM coexisted for years (and still do!) without destroying the fan community. There's nothing to prevent fans from interacting outside of the auspices of the respective 'zines. Shoot, the 'zines could even collaborate together or have Waybread as a sort of special project or sub-'zine.

Nevertheless, the 'zines would have very different objectives and goals in mind. The HoF is focused on gaming using Decipher's ruleset, for the most part during the end of the Third Age. OM, on the other hand (get the terrible pun?) has a very broad focus that often includes stuff that is only indirectly related to gaming (such as the Mapping Arda series of articles and various essays and such). And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that!

However, what I've seen on these forums is a desire for TOR-focused material, particularly rules-related things and adventures/campaigns building off the TOR rules and setting info as provided in Adventures Over the Edge of the Wild. This goal would, in my humble opinion, be better served by a separate publication.

Again, this need not lead to hostility or estrangement. In fact, if I was a longtime reader/contributor to OM who was attached to MERP/MERP-inspired setting info etc., I would feel threatened by a sudden shift to embracing TOR over everything else, which could lead to hostility among fan segments. The reality (as I see it) is that OM is primarily a MERP magazine, and I don't see any reason to try to change that.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Make of it what you will.

From the onset of OM, it was made always made clear that every system is fair game and no one shall feel sidelined by inclusion of another than his preferred system.
I just skimmed over the last TOC, and from ca. 70 submissions so far, about 6 or so are MERP-specific concerning game-mechanics (and 2 or 3 LotRRPG mechanics). The vast majority is more or less system-neutral with no specific game stats provided. A couple of submissions use some of the MERP worldbuilding terms, and then mostly in a context what was made bad there and needs to be changed.
Almost all of these submissions require no knowledge of the MERP canon/worldbuilding efforts to use them. For "old-timers", these terms hold a meaning and associations, but for newbies, it's just another name among many.

Thus I'm a bit suprised of the perception as a pure MERP-fanzine.

Best
Tolwen

Let me clarify, Tolwen. By "primarily MERP" I didn't mean "pure MERP," as you put it. Granted, I haven't read all the issues of OM, but of the ones I have read (roughly half), the majority of articles are, if not created directly for MERP, created with MERP and its associated assumptions, such as MERP setting material, in mind. At least that's the way I perceive it. I'll admit my perceptions could be totally out of line with reality. I'm guessing that part of the reason this came about (if I am correct in my perceptions) was that when OM was started up, HoF had already been going, and most LoTRRPG fans had already been using it, leaving MERP and indie rpg-ers for OM.

I guess to put it another way, MERP is the default assumption for OM, even if not stated. This comes through even in the way you address it: if readers are not familiar with MERP canon, etc. they are "newbies," to use your term. MERP is the paradigm for most OM contributors, and I don't feel that it would be to the best service of TOR fans to merely include TOR contributions in OM.

To be clear, I'm not attacking anyone or saying the way that OM does things is wrong or anything like that. My only point is that TOR would be better served by a separate publication, even if it was done in collaboration with/under the auspices of/with the endorsement of OM.

As someone who has submitted a number of articles for Other Minds I feel myself qualified to express an opinion on this topic.

1. I agree that there should be a seperate fanzine devoted to TOR stuff, as per the old Hall of Fire, which only focused on Decipher stuff.

2. However, those articles that are more general in scope (for example my Fourth Age timeline article) could be submitted for both, depending on the goals/views of the new fanzine's editors.

Regards

Robin S.
aka Tom Davie

They (HoF) do - and that's one of the problemss Issachar adressed: You need two staffs, two times the infrastructure etc.; in a word double (or thrice) the "administrative" part. Both HoF and OM are suffering from this effect. In Feruary last year, the editorial team of HoF announced something along this line. The increasing publication schedule of OM is mostly due to similar effects as well.

Best
Tolwen

Ahhh.... I see it clearly now.

Fans want tons of nice zines... and in a perfect world they would all be filled with new goodies, coming out all glossy and shiny almost every week.

We (fans) see no conflict or problem with this.

...because we are not doing all the work.

From an editorial and administrative point of view it would make a hell of a lot more sense to try to consolidate the efforts made, and maybe put out ONE high quality fanzine (to rule them all) very quarter or so than several different half-measures and vague gestures every month.

In short. We might be spreading us thin, (like butter scraped over too much bread). This is something I had not considered.

Wanders off, pondering...

/wolf

Which is why I have put out the idea in my previous posts that Waybread (or whatever it's called) could be made with the collaboration of OM. In other words, two 'zines, one staff (or at least with significant overlap). That way, those who want a clean start for TOR material will be happy, and it could be more feasible in terms of workload and infrastructure for those involved. If the HoF editors were on board, it could even include them.

That's assuming, of course, that Issachar is concerned about having the time to do TOR himself and/or about the number of submissions for each of the fanzines.

Anyway, just an idea.

Got it.

Don't think I'll be interested in reading a mixed zine.

But that's just me.

/wolf

You name it exactly. Spreading - very - thin (in terms of people willing to participate in the production of a fanzine on regular and reliable basis for an extended period of time) is what has happened to both OM and HoF and is IMHO likely to happen to Waybread as well, once the initial surge has settled down.

Best
Tolwen

Thinking about the question, my personal preference would be to turn to one source or fanzine. This most likely reflects my interest in all things Tolkien and Middle-earth. For that reason, I would enjoy a fanzine that covers multiple themes and genres. As a LM, the synthesis would be wonderful for generating new ideas. For example, I play TOR only but something read that pertains to another game system might generate a whole new way of approaching one (or more) of TOR's rules. Throw in a splash or two of material dealing with Middle-earth and my imagination might be ignited for a new adventure or campaign idea. Set alongside material meant for another game and, ideally, I have a whole new approach in mind with which to experiment. Just to say, the different types of articles and essays might be better served when presented with other, contrasting material.

Then again, it might be frustrating wading through essays or articles not relevant to my campaign. Then again, I've seldom seen a fanzine that came out to a length that I had the feeling of "wading" through it.

Could OM change it's layout to provide discrete, separate sections for Middle-earth related essays or articles, submissions for any of the gaming systems set in Middle-earth or inspired by Tolkien's sub-creation, and something for the Tolkien scholar or enthusiast? Not to say there would always be submissions for each section, but that the layout has a permamanet home for submissions of different types. So maybe there is a general editor, and maybe there is an editor for a TOR section and one for LotRRPG section, etc.

In this way, when someone reads an issue of OM and comes across the spot on submission guidelines, he or she will see there are definite themes or sections.

Just a random thought and question for those invested in either side or publication...

Regards,
E

While the idea of a "TOR" only zine with all its shiney good-good within is quite appealing, I agree it may not be as pragmatic as it sounds; what with spreading admin and material too thin.

I can certainly perceive a zine that has basically 4 primary sections:

1_MERP
2_DECIPHER
3_TOR (the recent discussion about a magic system and including Dunedain and Rohirrim would fit into this basket).
4_GAME-NEUTRAL (The last one of course things that are relevant to Middle-Earth in general but not written with mechanics that fit only one game.


I personally wouldn't mind an e-zine set up this way. I personally could find items written for others to be useful to what I'm currently playing. Afterall - many of the adventure ideas I currently have were inspired by MERP products or the HoF zine that is written mostly for Decipher. Inspiration can come from any of those sources.

And having it broken down as definitively as that, would prevent anyone from having to "wade through the zine" to find relevant articles to your preferred game format.

At least that's what I think. Of course my opinion AND $2.00 could buy you coffee.

Hey, you live near Atlanta, Georgia? Good conversation and a cup of coffee are not always easy to find. For that matter, I might even cover the $2 and buy the coffee...!

For me, that'd be absolutely OK. Some types of contributions wouldn't fit into any of these categories, but that's only a technicality (e.g. which categories to use and how to name them) and can easily be changed/fixed.
For a more efficient workload on every staff member I also thought about giving responsibility for major "categories" like the ones you suggest to assistant editors. These would then be responsible for the stuff in their category (e.g. bringing it to publication standard/quality and also organizing the possible contributions as well as "caring" for that category in general). IMHO, that would distribute the workload quite good. If these people then stick to it on a long-term basis, the publication schedule and reliability would become much more robust and sustainable. Especially the latter I don't see nowadays for neither HoF nor OM - though I can speak with certainty only for OM. What I can observe for HoF from the outside, looks quite familiar to me though.

Best
Tolwen

[threadjack]Thanks for the invite and the offer. Sadly I live a hop skip and a jump from GA. I'm in the northern Bay Area of California. (halfway between SF and Sacramento).

Furthermore, I never cared to drink coffee. So at least I'd save you the $2.00; and my conversation is always free (except to my case-management clients).

My fav NFL team won their only Super Bowl in Atlanta (the St.L Rams); so I will at least say that the city has a sort of a sweetspot in my heart. [/threadjack]

Clearly - the best advantage IMO that I can see with doing it this way would be the exposure of TOR material to other potential audiences and perhaps even sway some converts to the ever-increasing fan-base.

There's no better way to keep an RPG alive than to continue to attract fans.

I suppose it will come down in the end to whether Issachar wants Waybread to be part of OM or not. In reality, our opinions hold only so much sway. I am quite happy to support Waybread, whether it is independent or a section of OM. I have no inclination to write scholarly treatises on ME or rules for Merp/Coda, but that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy reading these things or drawing inspiration from them. United we stand...........

I, too, will support Waybread in whatever form it ultimately takes. I merely await the announcement and the opportunity to revel in the pages of The One Ring RPG support!

I fear I will not follow if it is a mix.

I have nothing but love an respect for you all in this regard and I wish I could say that I'd follow even if you mix them... but experience says otherwise. If I can only use* one fourth of the material, I probably will not bother.

Other zines that I've ditched for similar reasons include games such as Rune Quest, Traveller etc. where they mixed systems.

I guess I'm simply too lazy or "purist" to be bothered with reading stuff for one system and converting them to the other.

But I wish you all the best of luck either way... and who knows... maybe this will be the one that sticks? Maybe I will try one or two issues and love it regardless and prove myself wrong?

/wolf

*And I mean "use" as in, straight out of the box, use, without any prep-work.

GW69, I really don't get why you would ignore a free source(unless I am mistaken and we are talking about subscriptions)of articles for TOR.
Are you really saying that it's because it might share space with rules for other games?

There's a heck of a difference between a Zine which is Tolkien specific(if multi system)and a magazine that contains RQ and Traveller. That RQ and Traveller do not share backgrounds and have virtually no cross over potential is obvious and the major difference.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. It just seems a little strange to me, given your apparent epiphany at the top of the page.

I know. It's me... not you.

The Zines I mentioned were similar to this.

One for Traveller, mainly focusing on 3rd Empire. So it was all the same setting, but different rule-sets (Everything from Classic to d20 and MGT)...

Another one for RQ with similar issues... same "world" different rules.

Very much the same situation we are talking about here, one setting different rule sets.

I tried to feel enthusiastic for them both and d/l a couple of issues... but honestly, they are just eating up hard-drive space... so I stopped.

It's hard for me to pin down why exactly, I just know from experience that that's what's going to happen.

I'm picky... I need it to be spot on or not at all. Sorry.

/wolf

Ah, I see. Sorry. I thought that you meant a Zine featuring both Traveller and RQ(odd as that sounds). Hard Drive is a commodity and as good a reason as anyone can give to pick and choose.

Hmm... After thinking it over and reading what others have posted, I'm actually sort of coming around to the idea of including everything in one mag, so long as it's clear that no one system is preferred over others. I'm still a little skeptical that this can actually happen, though.

Also, if the good folks at OM end up making separate sections for each rpg, I think it would be an excellent idea to work with the HoF staff. Perhaps the Decipher section could even be named the Hall of Fire and be the continuance of the magazine, since its really slowed down as of late?

One thing I'd like to see (if this where to happen) would be OM being open to incorporating people like Issachar and razor77 and Celebraen (the HoF folks) into the operation (if they'd be willing to) rather than just "taking over" the areas they have put so much work into. Also, OM would have to be open to some changes.

Anyway, end of ramble.

I believe that Tolwen has already indicated a willingness for change in OM. Whether that extends to inviting Issachar etc on board, or whether Issachar etc would be interested is another story. I personally believe that a single Zine is the way to go. If the assorted editors and production teams don't agree with that, then ok by me also.

We seem to have quite similar ideas I was thinking of naming the sections according to the old (HoF) and new new ideas (Waybread; or whatever else Issachar likes best). That would IMO be a good way to mark these different sections.

To me this was very clear, but of course I did not write it down

I deem it a precondition and absolutely necessary for this approach to work that Issachar (and ideally the HoF crew as well) will join in the editorial team to manage their respective sections. And of course everyone else willing to lend a hand here is more than welcome too!
We (at OM now) are already struggling and stretched very thin with the content as it is now (as already said earlier). Managing even more content (TOR and hopefully LotRRPG; as outlined above) would be far beyond our handling capabilities for sure!

Or in other words: The idea of these sections wouldn't - IMHO - work without said people! I can say that they'd be very welcome and we'll make sure that everyone who joins is comfortable with the final, published, solution.

Best
Tolwen

How exciting, David! I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I will. I have couple ideas for names from Bilbo's song, "I sit beside the fire", which harkens to the "Hall of Fire", since Bilbo was there or near there when he spoke it.

Returning Feet
Voices at the Door

If I think of others I'll put them up.

Thank you for making this decision. I'm no expert gamer, but I enjoy it and love The Professor. I'll help however I can.

Yours in fellowship,
Stephen

I've been reading these posts very carefully over the past few days, because I wanted to have a chance to think everything over before responding. I love what C7 is doing with TOR, & IMHO they bring the finest attempt at writing Middle-earth to tabletop RPGs to date.

That said, however, we must approach this project realistically. The track record for the various companies that have attempted to introduce Middle-earth to our tabletops during the past several decades can be at times discouraging . Please don't misunderstand me, because I support C7 & TOR on the one hand, & any webzine on the other.

What I'm saying is that the previous games & webzines have struggled from a variety of reasons, including lack of support. C7 develops superlative games, but the sparse communications & endless delays in publishing prove a bit exasperating at times for many of us. Meanwhile, Issachar valiantly steps-up, but he also mentions that he'll only be able to do this for a year or two (I don't blame him, because it's a lot of work!) I don't mean to paint a doom & gloom scenario; I'm just trying to be practical, & would rather see a limited product than nothing .

Therefore, despite my personal preferences for a separate webzine documenting TOR exclusively, I recommend that we:

1. Develop a single publication - provided that the volunteers in question are in agreement & avoid any legal issues. TOR, LOTR, MERP, you name it, let's get it all together under one roof, & people can pick & choose from each issue which articles apply to our games.

2. Publish at the most monthly, because the experience with HOF, OM, & the rest indicates that interest & contributors will taper-off.

3. To the degree possible, maintain a standard format. These posts seem to indicate the following preferences from those of us who have responded (in whichever order the editor prefers):

A. A section concerning actual adventures, lairs or sites, etc.

B. One for characters, foes, rewards, & such.

C. Rules.

D. Possibly something for Middle-earth scholarship or background material, though this may be superflous or included in the above .

All this sounds quite good to me. I'd like to see what Issachar says before we move further. Since he's a key figure for it, we should here his counsel

Best
Tolwen

He is both wise and powerful. Trust me, he'll know what to do.

Oh brother.

Yeah, I'm withdrawing from the race and giving my endorsement to my worthy rival, or words to that effect.

Most of my time since starting this thread has been spent gathering and creating art assets, and although that's fun, a better use of time would be working on actual game content. Working with OM will take the job of cooking up a whole new magazine template off my plate, so I can focus more on writing.

So my aim now is to be a contributor to OM (hopefully one of an increasing number). I don't need a cabinet position or a title or anything. It'll be for Tolwen and Hawke and others to decide whether and how to re-envision OM's presentation/format/look. I'll help if needed.

Okay, now back to the serious business of making stuff up.

I just re-read my last post and thought it sounded, I don't know, "curt". I hope it doesn't rub people the wrong way. I just don't have much to add right now. And the intended tone is sometimes hard to discern out here on teh Intarnets.

I'm kinda bummed to hear this, so I certainly understand your points (& hope that I haven't said anything to influence you) . You've always done an incredible job supporting gaming in Middle-earth (I still read every issue of HOF), & hope that you continue (as you say) to contribute, in whichever capacity you can .

I don't see ourselves as rivals, but as colleagues with a common interest, i.e. enhancing gaming possibilities in Middle-eath

I'll get in touch with you privately, so we can discuss further details

Best
Tolwen

Cram?, Lembas? Waybread just sounds sorta plain. But if the 'zine is folded into OM/OH the name may be a non-issue.

Is there any official fan policy concerning the use of TOR-related stuff. For example, using the TOR logo in a fanzine to mark the section where the TOR stuff is located?

Best
Tolwen

Well I for one would hate a mixed magazine as I hate both MERP and CODA LOTR, I really don't want that taint in a TOR 'zine. I want TOR to be as far away as possible from any influence from those games. MERP invented stuff that I never can or ever will accept as canon. So if you release a 100 page 'zine, it's really just 33 pages for me ( or less) , because I won't read a single word of the other crap.

We need something strong in favor of TOR not old outdated RPGs that failed to capture the spirit of Tolkien's work. We need something focused and concise, directly helping and nurturing TOR, this game is going to need it.

MERP and CODA had their chance and failed, why give them a free ride? No other RPG games have made me more upset than MERP and CODA, why be associated with it ? MERP for their breach of contract and CODA for utter failure and disregard for the license. On to greener pastrues please. . .

I want a 'zine that starts off with articles on how TOR is different from former LOTR RPGs and why this one finally gets it right. Articles about mechanics and how to implement them, examples, etc... then we can get some s, NPC's . Then an adventure to round it out. I want it completely TOR focused so I can make the most of it. Why waste 1/2 to 2/3 of the zine to OOP nonsense? ( or scholarly articles)

Think people, OM's is not the right place for TOR, it just isn't. I vote for Waybread as an independent 'zine. Why don't we have a poll and see what the people think?

bitter much?

In all seriousness - most here value everyone elses opinions; there are simply far more tact and productive ways of expressing them one should think.


I personally don't see a problem either way - and content for other games just might prove useful to me. So I see no harm in its inclusion.

Whether we get a 100 page zine and 33 pages are TOR related or a 33 page zine and all is TOR related - it's still 33 pages that are TOR related. The other pages are there for those that it may help and can simply be ignored for those it cannot.

I also resent the fact that Tolwen just comes in here and snakes his way to a mixed zine, whatever. . .

I dislike OM's and its MERP focus ( and inclusion of MERP canon ) which is why I never read it, now I will be forced to read it? LOTR's is not an EU Milieu like Star Wars.

I think you guys are moving way too fast on this and more people need to express what they really want, not 2 guys who already work for OM. Of course he wants a mixed 'zine, I wonder why?

Yeah I am bitter, following Tolkien RPG's has made me bitter because we can never get one that does the setting justice.

What exactly will you be using from MERP, the systems are completely apples and oranges. CODA? Really Im going to port over from those settings? Why would I want all the extra work to please the fans of those games? I'm not a fan of those games, in fact I actively avoid them and have been waiting for a game like TOR for many years. TOR is unlike MERP and CODA in spirit and execution.

If we allow the 'zine to be mixed then it loses focus and gets watered down. What if I really like an adventure but its in CODA form, will I now have to re-read all my books to try and "decipher" the content so I can use it? Sounds like a pain in the ass to me. Will all adventures be tri-stated? No stats?

We can avoid all this nonsense by making it a proper TOR 'zine. . .


I think the least we can do is put it to a vote of some kind ( a poll), at least we can take a measure of the pulse of the community. I can't be the only one that wants a TOR focused 'zine more than a mixed pile.

I think it's a resources problem. Reading this topic I see that in the community there aren't resources (in people, skills, knowledge and time) for two separated and different pubblications. The solution is to place in an ongoing magazine a TOR chamber. So everything that isn't rule-bonded can be shared, and for TOR fans I belive won't be so hard to convert the stats from other sistems (TOR beign so elegantly streamlined).
For myself I haven't ever heard of Other Minds before I started to read his forum, so I'm trying to catch up the issues, reading in every spare minute of the day, and I'm impressed. It's beautiful. There's a lot of canon-lore that I don't know and I have to learn, and it's not twisted-to-fit-MERP. Not all of it at least, still have a lot to read.
In the end if someone is willing to spend his time working for the "Tolkien-fan-base" I can only say a big "Thank You"!

Hi Blustar,

I agree with you in so much as I'd rather see a TOR-only 'zine.

However, reading this thread made me realize that it's actually not only up to what I (or any other fan) want.

It's also highly dependent on what can be published in real life, who will do the work and how much time effort etc. then can reasonably put into this.

I don't know about you Blustar, but I'm not envious of that part. I just want to read a nice zine, not be bogged down with boring work. So as much as I can share my opinion about what I would like... I still have to show some respect for the guys doing all the work.

And if they end up in a spot where they go: "We have to consolidate our efforts to be able to cope with this." I will respect that too. I may not like it. I may not read the zine. But I will respect it.

It's their vision, their sweat. If you don't like what comes out of it, I suggest you create your own 'zine or accept it.

/wolf